Panther in the Den wrote:New Yorkers are as passionate about their pizza (and the pie cut) as Chicagoans are of our local conventions.

I prefer the square cut as it is easier to handle with one hand leaving the other available for a can of Old Style. A pie cut take two hands to handle the 6 to 9" slice. I also hear folding the slice is popular.

I say it depends on the pizza. New York and Neapolitan style pizzas are not suitable for square cuts, and the crispy more-crackery styles of Chicago and other Midwest pizzas are better as square cuts, especially in the context of a bar where it's meant to be eaten as finger food, almost appetizer-style. It's as simple as that. It's not one is inherently better than the other; it's a matter of what is appropriate for the style. Some parochial East Coast self-styled pizza mavens seem to miss this context.

nsxtasy wrote:Jeff Ruby responds to those who disagreed with his list. Click here.

I see Ruby was taken to task by "SCOODS" (probably an LTHer) about omitting GNR Vito & Nick's. . .

Jeff Ruby wrote:Like Gino’s East, V & N is famously inconsistent, and the pie I had while researching this piece was no better than scores of other South Side party-cut pies.

. . . and by "JAYROCK81" about GNR Marie's:

Jeff Ruby wrote:How can you not like a pizzeria where you have to enter through a liquor store and the waitress calls you honey? My pizza there (Marie’s Special: green pepper, onion, sausage, and mushroom) had nice black char marks on the bottom and good balance of toppings, but it was ultimately too greasy to crack the list.

Jeff Ruby wrote:How can you not like a pizzeria where you have to enter through a liquor store and the waitress calls you honey? My pizza there (Marie’s Special: green pepper, onion, sausage, and mushroom) had nice black char marks on the bottom and good balance of toppings, but it was ultimately too greasy to crack the list.

Serves them right for using real cheese and sausage. I like my bar pizza neat n' tidy too.

as a former suburbanite I am offended by Mr. Ruby's assertion that Giordano's is for suburbanites(among others), even we know its pretty bad.

Jeff Ruby wrote:Leona’s, no disrespect intended, is the death of all that is good and nice in the world.

[guffaw] Here here! [/guffaw]

Binko wrote:

Panther in the Den wrote:New Yorkers are as passionate about their pizza (and the pie cut) as Chicagoans are of our local conventions.

I prefer the square cut as it is easier to handle with one hand leaving the other available for a can of Old Style. A pie cut take two hands to handle the 6 to 9" slice. I also hear folding the slice is popular.

I say it depends on the pizza. New York and Neapolitan style pizzas are not suitable for square cuts, and the crispy more-crackery styles of Chicago and other Midwest pizzas are better as square cuts, especially in the context of a bar where it's meant to be eaten as finger food, almost appetizer-style. It's as simple as that. It's not one is inherently better than the other; it's a matter of what is appropriate for the style. Some parochial East Coast self-styled pizza mavens seem to miss this context.

It all comes down to the crust.

Do you like a machine-rolled cracker-y crust? If so, then Chicago thin crust is for you. This kind of crust is especially suited to the party/Chicago/square cut (n fact, true Chicago-style thin crust is singularly unsuitable for a wedge cut).

On the other hand, do you like a bread-y, pliable crust? If so, then you undoubtedly prefer the hand-tossed East Coast-style, which enables you to fold each wedge-shaped slice in half (which, to me, is the pizza equivalent to twisting Oreos apart).

My wife grew up in Racine and prefers Chicago thin crust, while I grew up in upstate New York and lived in Manhattan for many years and so East Coast-style pizza is my preference, and never the twain shall meet.

I like'd Ruby's response to the guy who made the "chubster" comment. A lot of folks who are offended that Chicago-style thin crust didn't get enough love, but Chicago now has many different styles of pizza and Ruby's list is an attempt to represent the breadth of what is now available to us.

I just read his replies and I am even further convinced that he went out of his way in dissing the tried and true real Chicago style pizzerias for his north side bent of Neapolitan style pizzas.

Throwing a tablespoon of tomatoes, an ounce of cheese and a basil leaf, might be his style but not mine.

His whole review was meant to stir up this kind of reaction and should be totally dismissed along with most of his top pizza choices.

I say it depends on the pizza. New York and Neapolitan style pizzas are not suitable for square cuts, and the crispy more-crackery styles of Chicago and other Midwest pizzas are better as square cuts, especially in the context of a bar where it's meant to be eaten as finger food, almost appetizer-style. It's as simple as that. It's not one is inherently better than the other; it's a matter of what is appropriate for the style. Some parochial East Coast self-styled pizza mavens seem to miss this context.

New York area Sicilian style pizzas are always square or rectanglar cut, but they are baked in rectangular pans..

rickster wrote:

I say it depends on the pizza. New York and Neapolitan style pizzas are not suitable for square cuts, and the crispy more-crackery styles of Chicago and other Midwest pizzas are better as square cuts, especially in the context of a bar where it's meant to be eaten as finger food, almost appetizer-style. It's as simple as that. It's not one is inherently better than the other; it's a matter of what is appropriate for the style. Some parochial East Coast self-styled pizza mavens seem to miss this context.

New York area Sicilian style pizzas are always square or rectanglar cut, but they are baked in rectangular pans..

Exactly. When I was growing up near Albany, New York, "Sicilian" style was preferred by school cafeterias and some lazier slice shops because it's easier to prepare (I assume). The crust is very bread-y and chewy, and not very appetizing.

rickster wrote:

I say it depends on the pizza. New York and Neapolitan style pizzas are not suitable for square cuts, and the crispy more-crackery styles of Chicago and other Midwest pizzas are better as square cuts, especially in the context of a bar where it's meant to be eaten as finger food, almost appetizer-style. It's as simple as that. It's not one is inherently better than the other; it's a matter of what is appropriate for the style. Some parochial East Coast self-styled pizza mavens seem to miss this context.

New York area Sicilian style pizzas are always square or rectanglar cut, but they are baked in rectangular pans..

Sure, and there's also those bakery pizzas you get in parts of the East Coast, which are like thick focaccias, also cut into squares. But, as you notice, the problem East Coasters seem to have is cutting a circular pizza into squares. It'd be kind of difficult to cut a Sicilian pizza into pie slices.

ld111134 wrote:It all comes down to the crust.

Do you like a machine-rolled cracker-y crust?

[...]

On the other hand, do you like a bread-y, pliable crust?

Or how about it not being an either-or proposition. Sometimes, I'm in the mood for cracker crust. Sometimes a Neapolitan. Sometimes a deep dish. And, yes, sometimes I even like cornmeal in my pizza crust. Variety, spice of life, and all that.

Binko wrote:crispy more-crackery styles of Chicago and other Midwest pizzas are better as square cuts, especially in the context of a bar where it's meant to be eaten as finger food, almost appetizer-style

Exactly. Flat pizzas in Chicago are canapes, not meals.

Jeff Ruby wrote:
Leona’s, no disrespect intended, is the death of all that is good and nice in the world.

Ruby is a good and wise man.

When I first came up here, Leona's deep dish blew my mind. It was an inch thick, dense as a dark star, with a quarter inch of pasty tomato paste on top. Going from ordinary American pizza to that was like going from whistling to hearing Wagner.

Then they stopped making it, because it took up too much space-time in the oven. (By which I mean, in the hour it sat there baking, two of their other pizzas could have been baked.) And that was when I realized how ordinary everything else at Leona's was.

The only thing I've ever found since then that is similar to that long-lost deep dish is the deep dish at La Gondola. Frankly, I only order it once a year; I don't really like that style any more, it's too much. But boy, when I first had it, the doors of pizza perception opened.

Hey LTHers. You raised a lot of good points—and took some good shots—in your discussion here of my top 25 pizza list, and I respect you folks enough that I thought I’d weigh in here. Not content to shut up, I also weighed in on chicagomag.com’s message boards, and even released a pizza song/video (go to http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magaz ... n-Chicago/ and scroll down) because I could not let go of this topic, which is near and dear to my heart. In the meantime:

1. Trendy? Me?
Ram4 wrote, “Obviously the trendy people are making these lists.” You can blame Chicago magazine all you want for its upscale leanings, and imagine a cabal of well-heeled journalists plotting around a conference table in the Trib Tower, but the truth is: It was just me, hitting the streets and making my best judgments. If there was any agenda, it wasn’t to diss Chicago’s tried-and-true styles, as PJ Murphy harrumphed, it was to pick a top 25 free from any regional bias or trend bias and just focus on the basic idea: How does this pizza in front of me taste, and where does it stack up among the others in the city and suburbs? Or, as Jesteinf wrote, “who has the best pizza right now.” Besides, my wife would be amused to know that I am trendy by anyone’s standards.

2. I’ve got no style.
Why did I not break it down by style, as Midas lamented? Partially because I only had 10 pages to play with, and a lot of that included photos. But also—and I know this may count as heresy to some of you—I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to take all of these widely varying styles and put them all under one Big Pizza Umbrella, then judge them by simple criteria: Is it fresh? Is it balanced? Is it cooked right? Is the crust on target? Is there something compelling me to take another bite?

3. No Vito, no Nick.
I’ve taken the most heat for omitting Vito & Nick’s, which I expected to make the list, too. Then I ate there. It was fine, but can someone explain what makes it better than all the other square-cut pizzas? I must be missing something. Or maybe, as Ronniesuburban wrote, I went there on an off day. I am but one man, so repeat visits were impossible for this feature, and as I’ve learned over the years, there just aren’t that many pizzerias that are consistent day in and day out. In other words, tough luck for Vito. And Nick.

4. Skip to m’Lou.
Midas and some others were shocked at how high I placed Lou Malnati’s. So was I. I had never cared for it, and dreaded my visit there in Lincolnwood for this feature. But it surprised me. They are using fresh ingredients, the crust was better than Uno’s or Gino’s East, and the pizza had a lot more balance than I remember.

5. Going to the John.
Essie, I went on WGN radio on Saturday night, and the host, Nick DiGiglio, bent my ear about John’s on Western. I freely admit I need to check the place out. Tell me what’s so good about it, because DiGiglio couldn’t say much other than the fact that he has always loved it.

6. Why the LTH hate for Piece?
It’s one of few pizzerias in Chicago turning out a consistent product over time. And how come no one ever says anything about how surprisingly good Castel Gandolfo is? (Maybe because it’s always empty.)

7. What was up with the photos in our online gallery?
Come on, they weren’t that bad. But needless to say, we were more focused on the feature itself, which has beautiful photography. I mean, if you just read the online version, you didn’t see any of my writeups, which hopefully explained why I ranked them where I did. Online, it just looks like a random list. (In the magazine, I suppose it also looks like a random list, which is all these things ever are.)

Thanks for the lively discussion, as always. I knew I was stirring the shitstorm by offering up a list, but my intention was not to be controversial or provocative, but rather to produce an honest list. I hope I did so.

Jeff

To judge by recent reports here, Vito & Nick's is having an off year or two.

Whatever disagreements I have with the list (the thing to get at Art of Pizza is deep dish spinach, not sausage, you effete eastern fop), the willingness to blow off sacred cows (honestly, defending Giordano's, how is that possible) is one of the best things about it.

dropkickjeffy wrote:6. Why the LTH hate for Piece?
It’s one of few pizzerias in Chicago turning out a consistent product over time. And how come no one ever says anything about how surprisingly good Castel Gandolfo is? (Maybe because it’s always empty.)

I think Castel Gandolfo is unfortunately ignored due to their very poor location, which is too bad because I agree that they really serve great pizza. Hopefully your mention gets them a little more attention, but there are a few posts about Castel Gandolfo here.

As for Piece, I like their pizza quite a bit . . . although in my opinion Piece's crust holds up far better with the white pizza than it does covered in sauce.

I'm addicted to one particular pizza from piece: red with pepperoni and banana peppers. It's a simple pizza, nothing remotely daring or interesting about it, but it is supremely delicious.

I wonder how much of the opinion of Piece is based on carryout, since they're often packed to the gills. I used to live just a couple doors down from there, and I was shocked by how their pizza seemed to magically deteriorate just walking those 15 paces. I don't know if their system meant that carryout pizzas sat for a long time before making their way to the front, or if there was some sort of freaky heat conduction thing going on with those metal pans. But my experience was that they don't travel well. I assume Gleam has walked out with them from time to time... I'd be curious to know if your experience was the same.

Or maybe the demographics have something to do with it. Or maybe people just don't like the pizza. I thought it was pretty darn good.

Jeff, I don't agree with many of your choices, but you get big props in my book (a) for having legitimate, objective reasons for the choices you made, and (b) for your willingness to share those reasons on the Chicagomag website as well as here.

I am a huge fan of Peace, but have always eaten in.

RE delivery: Bitching about a pizza you got delivered is like listening to "Rubber Soul" on your laptop and complaining about the production.

gleam wrote:I'm addicted to one particular pizza from piece: red with pepperoni and banana peppers. It's a simple pizza, nothing remotely daring or interesting about it, but it is supremely delicious.

I love this pizza, too. My absolute fave there. Never carried out, though.

=R=

I'm just happy that someone else had the courage to come out and say they liked something at Crust. I feel so validated.

Dmnkly wrote:But my experience was that they don't travel well. I assume Gleam has walked out with them from time to time... I'd be curious to know if your experience was the same.

We've carried out that pizza a couple times (and others), and it's never as good as it is in the restaurant.. the main problem is that the crust seems to rapidly turn into a chewy, tough slab that holds up the toppings. It also reheats poorly. Coalfire, surprisingly, survives a 10 minute trip much better than Piece. But if you eat in, Piece puts out some fantastic pizza.

gleam wrote:

Dmnkly wrote:But my experience was that they don't travel well. I assume Gleam has walked out with them from time to time... I'd be curious to know if your experience was the same.

We've carried out that pizza a couple times (and others), and it's never as good as it is in the restaurant.. the main problem is that the crust seems to rapidly turn into a chewy, tough slab that holds up the toppings. It also reheats poorly. Coalfire, surprisingly, survives a 10 minute trip much better than Piece. But if you eat in, Piece puts out some fantastic pizza.

Glad to have some backup on that. I was wondering if it was me.

I was reminded tonight that at $2.20 per "slice," D'amato's bakery square pan pizza with sausage has the best flavor/$1 and calories/$1 ratio of anything in town, and deserves a spot on my own list when I'm rattling it off. Also, it's just as good in exile across the street at the moment, along with that fabulous register.

-P.P.

2 best things to bring to a party in chicago: a sheet of D'Amato's sausage pie; a tray of Uncle John's tips & links. Both travel very well, with the pizza being good (probably at its best, really) at room temp.

JeffB wrote:2 best things to bring to a party in chicago: a sheet of D'Amato's sausage pie; a tray of Uncle John's tips & links. Both travel very well, with the pizza being good (probably at its best, really) at room temp.

It's so funny that D'Amato's never occurs to me when it comes to pizza discussions, because that's probably my favorite slice in the city.

'parently didn't cross Ruby's mind, either. Seems like a good angle -- D'Amato's is a texbook example of a style that is found in various east coast pizza capitals; it is ancient and Chicago-grown yet also open to apples-to-apples comparisons, it is very good by any objective standard (arguably up there with Coalfire, Great Lake and Burt's in that its quality is consistently recognized across tasters) and it's a pop fly away from Coalfire. It can't be that D'Amato's pizza isn't considered pizza -- particularly for a rundown that includes an Oakbrook computer sales-guys expense-account lunch seafood restaurant. I generally agree with much of the list, by the way. I've always seen the good in Piece and Apart (reported on the board the week it opened -- LTH quotes were on the original take out menu) despite some shrugs here and there due to inconsistency. There seems to be a bias against tavern style, but I can accept the explanations. D'Amato's is an oversight though.

JeffB wrote:2 best things to bring to a party in Chicago: a sheet of D'Amato's sausage pie; a tray of Uncle John's tips & links. Both travel very well, with the pizza being good (probably at its best, really) at room temp.

While I haven't been I can imagine that D'Amato's is similar to the thicker crust pizza at Freddy's in Cicero. Often it is on the counter at room temperature and they will warm it up if you wish but usually I will take it as it is.

What about the popular Giant Slice and a Pop for $5? I first saw this on Taylor Street at Bacci Pizzeria and the slice was so huge that I requested it to be cut into squares for My Bride and I to share. They even had a special wedge shaped cardboard box to house the slice. Since then I have seen it near the junior high in Oak Park at Nick's Pizza and Beef and most recently at Salerno's on Roosevelt.

I always figured it was a fast and filling meal for students but with it appearing at Salerno's it's appeal is spreading.

These are also often served at room temp.