Argyle St- In decline?

I spent Saturday morning from 0930 to 1130 on Argyle Street shopping and having Spring Rolls and Pho. I had not been on Argyle for a number of years and quickly noticed a number of business's no longer open and some vacant locations. I also noticed the usual hustle and bustle was gone, even at 1130 when I left. I wonder if the numerous suburban ethnic locations for groceries and restaurants are attracting customers that years ago would have frequented Argyle on Saturday morning.
I did have excellent Spring Rolls and Special Pho at Pho 777. The beef broth had a predominately cinnamon aroma and taste and the meats were excellent as well as the condiments. I like more star anise in my preparations but to each chef his own. Very good service and prices. My previous favorite spot was gone.
Went into Sea World to possibly purchase crab/lobster. Tanks and atmosphere seemed grimy and I declined to purchase any.
Went to the Tai Nam market on Broadway and purchased Ba Le supplies, periwinkles, and two type of clams as well as hopefully an authentic Vietnamese Mam Nem, heavy, non clear 'Super.1l Huong V! Que Nha' with no sugar. Checkout lady asked me if I liked it and said it was the best and to add chilies to it, of course! Gave me free ice for my cooler for the trip home. Only negative were the panhandlers that were on the sidewalk.
I stopped at Fresh Farms for veal and lamb products and then H-Mart which was its usual bustling self and I wonder what affect H-Mart has had on people who previously might have shopped on Argyle.
Anyone else have the same impressions?-Dick

budrichard wrote:Anyone else have the same impressions?-Dick

No

G Wiv wrote:

budrichard wrote:Anyone else have the same impressions?-Dick

No

I agree with gary, Argyle street is as good as I have ever seen, and a true shopping and dining gem.

As somebody who has been addicted to Vietnamese food since the early fifties (in France when Vietnam was part of French Indochina), has been eating in the Argyle district since the very early 70's, continues to shop there about 6 to 8 times a year at Viet-Hoa on Argyle and lunches occasionally in that area, may I suggest a few non-scientific explanations:
The % of actual Vietnamese population in that area has decreased considerably over the last 10 years . Many families moved to more hospitable districts and to the suburbs. That explains the fact that many Vietnamese restaurants that originated around Argyle and Broadway have now moved to the suburbs and other neighborhoods in the Western and Northwestern sections of the city (like Nha Trang) .
Nowadays Chicago restaurant-goers are more sophisticated and demanding as far as their knowledge and quality of Vietnamese food is concerned. Therefore they are focusing on better located, cleaner, and more versatile in terms of menus, venues to satisfy their craving of Vietnamese food. These restaurants are often mentioned in the local press and magazines and this is not the case for the Argyle restaurants, except for the much over-rated Tank.
Argyle, many years ago when Daley became mayor, was supposed to benefit from large private investment and city support to become a real second "China" town. But that project never materialized and poverty, drugs, hygiene, and gang-related problems continued to plague that district of the city.
No wonder it never fully developed into a popular, attractive to both Chicagoans and tourists, eating district the way the area between Archer,Cermak and Wentworth has become....
Only Broadway improved somewhat and attracted new small family Vietnamese and Thai eateries.

alain40 wrote:As somebody who has been addicted to Vietnamese food since the early fifties (in France when Vietnam was part of French Indochina), has been eating in the Argyle district since the very early 70's, continues to shop there about 6 to 8 times a year at Viet-Hoa on Argyle and lunches occasionally in that area, may I suggest a few non-scientific explanations:
The % of actual Vietnamese population in that area has decreased considerably over the last 10 years . Many families moved to more hospitable districts and to the suburbs. That explains the fact that many Vietnamese restaurants that originated around Argyle and Broadway have now moved to the suburbs and other neighborhoods in the Western and Northwestern sections of the city (like Nha Trang) .
Nowadays Chicago restaurant-goers are more sophisticated and demanding as far as their knowledge and quality of Vietnamese food is concerned. Therefore they are focusing on better located, cleaner, and more versatile in terms of menus, venues to satisfy their craving of Vietnamese food. These restaurants are often mentioned in the local press and magazines and this is not the case for the Argyle restaurants, except for the much over-rated Tank.
Argyle, many years ago when Daley became mayor, was supposed to benefit from large private investment and city support to become a real second "China" town. But that project never materialized and poverty, drugs, hygiene, and gang-related problems continued to plague that district of the city.
No wonder it never fully developed into a popular, attractive to both Chicagoans and tourists, eating district the way the area between Archer,Cermak and Wentworth has become....
Only Broadway improved somewhat and attracted new small family Vietnamese and Thai eateries.

Agree with all this especially the bolded, many people are just flat out sketched out by Argyle.

Maybe I just have a really high sketch tolerance, but I never got a bad vibe on Argyle. There are areas immediately surrounding it that I wouldn't wander alone, but the street itself is just fine.

I don't find it scary, but I agree that cosmetically, it's much seedier looking and more dilapidated than most comparable ethnic food districts (Chinatown, Devon, etc.) That may be why most of the recent openings seem to be on Broadway near Argyle, not on Argyle.

I'm not going to pretend to have lived in the neighborhood and long time, so it may very well have been like this for decades. Scaryisn't the word I would use, but living a block away and frequenting the stretch 3-4x a week, I regularly see drug dealing, excessive panhandling, vomit on sidewalks and mentally unstable and/or high folks milling about, not to mention gun planearby on a couple occasions. It hasn't kept me from the area, but i certainly see how others would be uncomfotable, especially as a destination from the suburbs where people may have a lower tolerance for the delights of urban living.

AlekH wrote:I'm not going to pretend to have lived in the neighborhood and long time, so it may very well have been like this for decades. Scaryisn't the word I would use, but living a block away and frequenting the stretch 3-4x a week, I regularly see drug dealing, excessive panhandling, vomit on sidewalks and mentally unstable and/or high folks milling about, not to mention gun planearby on a couple occasions. It hasn't kept me from the area, but i certainly see how others would be uncomfotable, especially as a destination from the suburbs where people may have a lower tolerance for the delights of urban living.

I don't think that it is the worst area in town. However, there are more vacant storefront than there were last year. And I wold be less excited about walking more than 3-4 blocks east of Broadway on Argyle.

Trappings of the neighborhood aside, I do think the overall food value of Argyle street has dropped over the past few years. I don't get down there as often as others but my last couple visits were pretty lackluster. Viet Hoa was simply not good. I walked in there with a list of 6 produce items and left with only one of them because the other items I wanted were in pretty bad shape. I ended up getting the rest at Lincolnwood Produce on my way home.

Saturdays (especially mornings) used to be bustling and energetic on Argyle but it's just not at the level it used to be, IMO.

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote:Saturdays (especially mornings) used to be bustling and energetic on Argyle but it's just not at the level it used to be, IMO.

Argyle energy waxes and wanes as does perceived rough neighborhood. Part of the current perception problem on Arglye may be a few stores have not been rebuild since the fire, add Sun Wah moving to a larger location on Broadway and empty store fronts are more in evidence.

I tend not to think of neighborhoods except in terms of culinary treasure, but when I first started going to Arglye it was considerably rougher than present. If one rarely ventures south of Madison Argyle's current city scape may well seem sketchy.

I visit Argyle on a regular basis including Viet Hoa and have not noticed decline in product or uptick in sketchy. Not to say there are no hijinks's on and around Argyle, just that I have not noted an increase.

Enjoy,
Gary

Having lived in the neighborhood for 15 years (from 1985-2000), it's always had ups and downs. There are fewer restaurants (and fewer good ones) than 15 years ago but otherwise the neighborhood itself has not neither declined nor improved (one of the reasons I moved).

G Wiv wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:Saturdays (especially mornings) used to be bustling and energetic on Argyle but it's just not at the level it used to be, IMO.

Argyle energy waxes and wanes as does perceived rough neighborhood. Part of the current perception problem on Arglye may be a few stores have not been rebuild since the fire, add Sun Wah moving to a larger location on Broadway and empty store fronts are more in evidence.

I tend not to think of neighborhoods except in terms of culinary treasure, but when I first started going to Arglye it was considerably rougher than present. If one rarely ventures south of Madison Argyle's current city scape may well seem sketchy.

I visit Argyle on a regular basis including Viet Hoa and have not noticed decline in product or uptick in sketchy. Not to say there are no hijinks's on and around Argyle, just that I have not noted an increase.

Enjoy,
Gary

I agree with most of this and I think alain40's post also makes a number of good points.

I've lived three blocks north and one block west for going on twenty years. I walk up and down Argyle with no hassle or problems, including all the way east to Sheridan. Is it my favorite walk in the city? No. And I have never once been hassled, actively panhandled, or in any other way approached in what anyone would consider an untoward way. Would my wife be as comfortable as I am? Probably not. She's 5 feet tall and 100 pounds soaking wet. And I think it's fair to say she would avoid taking some of the walks that I do.

That said, she's never even been the subject of a remark of any kind at any time she's been with me, no matter what part of Argyle. I think the fire has put a damper on things, as has Sun Wah's move. At least for now. And let's not forget the loss of the Thai Grocery.

I think ronnie is also right but my firm sense is that this is a down cycle. Let's not forget the economy as a whole; this is a neighborhood that I think has been hit harder than many. And it's easier to see.

I've actually noticed the neighborhood finally seemed to be over some sort of hump, at least until the recession hit. Uptown round Argyle, where I'm always at to see concerts, was the only place in the greater Chicago area I've ever been literally threatened, but that was a few years ago and these days the area seems no worse than other similar neighborhoods. There are a few dubious blocks, but nothing serious, and nothing unique to the city.

Argyle street and the surrounding area is going through the same cycles that Uptown has been experiencing for 100 years. New immigrants to Chicago, whether they be the white southerners who moved to Uptown in the mid 1960s or the Vietnamese who moved there in the late 1970s, tend to first settle where the rents are cheap, the neighbors are less judgmental, and where they can be close to their own kind. As the newcomers begin to prosper from new businesses and as their cultures are assimilated into the melting pot that is Chicago, they move their families to better neighborhoods or the suburbs, while leaving the businesses in the original locations. Eventually, there are not enough people left in the "old" neigborhood to support the businesses, and the former residents are not as willing to travel from the suburbs to shop for familiar goods, so the stores and restaurants close and re-open in the suburbs or more affluent neighborhoods, making way for the next group of immigrants looking for cheap digs.

jlawrence01 wrote:And I wold be less excited about walking more than 3-4 blocks east of Broadway on Argyle.

If you keep walking more than 4 blocks east of Broadway on Argyle, you'll soon be underwater.

d4v3 wrote:Argyle street and the surrounding area is going through the same cycles that Uptown has been experiencing for 100 years. New immigrants to Chicago, whether they be the white southerners who moved to Uptown in the mid 1960s or the Vietnamese who moved there in the late 1970s, tend to first settle where the rents are cheap, the neighbors are less judgmental, and where they can be close to their own kind. As the newcomers begin to prosper from new businesses and as their cultures are assimilated into the melting pot that is Chicago, they move their families to better neighborhoods or the suburbs, while leaving the businesses in the original locations. Eventually, there are not enough people left in the "old" neigborhood to support the businesses, and the former residents are not as willing to travel from the suburbs to shop for familiar goods, so the stores and restaurants close and re-open in the suburbs or more affluent neighborhoods, making way for the next group of immigrants looking for cheap digs.

This same thing happened with the Korean population in Albany Park. Growing up in the 80s I remember taking trips down to Lawrence on the weekends for shopping, haircuts, eye doctor, etc. Then more Koreans moved to Mount Prospect/Glenview/Niles and opened up businesses there. That stretch of Lawrence still has their Korean stalwarts, but it's nowhere near what it used to be like 20 years ago. But that's okay by me, more Koreans to spread the love throughout Chicagoland

nsxtasy wrote:

jlawrence01 wrote:And I wold be less excited about walking more than 3-4 blocks east of Broadway on Argyle.

If you keep walking more than 4 blocks east of Broadway on Argyle, you'll soon be underwater.

Let's see, heading east on Argyle from Broadway: Winthrop, Kenmore, Sheridan, and then a long block to Marine Drive. No water, for that you'd need to then go through the park, under Lake Shore Drive, then another quarter mile or so to the lake.

ronnie_suburban wrote:Saturdays (especially mornings) used to be bustling and energetic on Argyle but it's just not at the level it used to be, IMO.

I agree.

Fifteen or so years ago, a weekend morning on Argyle was so crowded with Asian families that it was hard to get down the sidewalk. Parking was nearly impossible. Markets and restaurants were bursting with people. I'd estimate that it's dropped 50% or so. It seems particularly desolate to me now.

I'd chalk this up to population migration, as other people have noted. The population of these particular ethnicities is no longer primarily located around that corner.

If not for Arabs and Pakistanis moving into the Devon area, the same would have happened there as well. As a couple generations of Indian immigrants have now found success in Chicago, A high percentage of Indian families have moved away from Devon. Fortunately for Devon Ave. the peak arrival of other ethnicities lagged the immigration of Indians and kept the neighborhood vibrant.

budrichard wrote:I spent Saturday morning from 0930 to 1130 on Argyle Street shopping and having Spring Rolls and Pho. I had not been on Argyle for a number of years and quickly noticed a number of business's no longer open and some vacant locations. I also noticed the usual hustle and bustle was gone, even at 1130 when I left. I wonder if the numerous suburban ethnic locations for groceries and restaurants are attracting customers that years ago would have frequented Argyle on Saturday morning.
I did have excellent Spring Rolls and Special Pho at Pho 777. The beef broth had a predominately cinnamon aroma and taste and the meats were excellent as well as the condiments. I like more star anise in my preparations but to each chef his own. Very good service and prices. My previous favorite spot was gone.
Went into Sea World to possibly purchase crab/lobster. Tanks and atmosphere seemed grimy and I declined to purchase any.
Went to the Tai Nam market on Broadway and purchased Ba Le supplies, periwinkles, and two type of clams as well as hopefully an authentic Vietnamese Mam Nem, heavy, non clear 'Super.1l Huong V! Que Nha' with no sugar. Checkout lady asked me if I liked it and said it was the best and to add chilies to it, of course! Gave me free ice for my cooler for the trip home. Only negative were the panhandlers that were on the sidewalk.
I stopped at Fresh Farms for veal and lamb products and then H-Mart which was its usual bustling self and I wonder what affect H-Mart has had on people who previously might have shopped on Argyle.
Anyone else have the same impressions?-Dick

Most of my experiences on Argyle have been similar, I just don't think of them in a negative light, I take it as part of the experience. One thing: I've never found the tanks at Sea World acceptably clean and prefer to shop at one of the Asian superstores or one of the smaller ones in Chinatown, where they're kept better. I don't remember at time when it wasn't grimy. While the rest of the strip can be a bit shopworn, I find it to be far less touristy than Chinatown, and in particular I enjoyed the Chinese New Year celebration there, which was more of a community and cultural event and less of a tourist draw.

I still shop Argyle (though Sea World is a different matter) I just don't go often because it seems like less hassle to go to go elsewhere, much like Devon (which is nearby, so I go more often, but a similarly huge hassle for parking is what keeps me from going as often as I otherwise would) Panhandlers and their ilk I have in my backyard, if I avoided them, I'd never go outside.

For whatever reason, Sunday seems to be the bigger shopping day. The neighborhood is still jam-packed with cars bearing plates from Ohio, to Kentucky, to Iowa. Also, it's summertime. Just fewer of everybody in certain areas and much more in others. I for one am glad Argyle has kept its basic character even as ethnic demographics change. NY, Chicago and San Francisco have precious few remaining neighborhoods where one can eat and drink until the wee hours, catch a show and not worry too much about getting the bum's rish from a city government bent on keeping things Disneyesque. Of course, as abandoned palaces get rebranded as Targets and the Saxony, Red Rooster and Carol's die or limp along on life support, the place is changing all the time.

trpt2345 wrote:

nsxtasy wrote:

jlawrence01 wrote:And I wold be less excited about walking more than 3-4 blocks east of Broadway on Argyle.

If you keep walking more than 4 blocks east of Broadway on Argyle, you'll soon be underwater.

Let's see, heading east on Argyle from Broadway: Winthrop, Kenmore, Sheridan, and then a long block to Marine Drive. No water, for that you'd need to then go through the park, under Lake Shore Drive, then another quarter mile or so to the lake.

Yes, exactly as I said.

It seems like there's always someone who just has to "explain" (or attack) the jokes instead of just enjoying them...

JeffB wrote:For whatever reason, Sunday seems to be the bigger shopping day.

This is the impression I have, too. When I shop on Argyle with my mom, it's always on Sunday mornings. We have our routine down pat. With the exception of extreme weather days in winter, there's always cars backed up waiting to get a spot in the Viet Hoa lot (granted, a small lot). I take over the driver's seat so that my mom can go in and start her shopping; I join her once I get a spot.

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:Maybe I just have a really high sketch tolerance, but I never got a bad vibe on Argyle.

FWIW, aside from Sunday shopping, I visit Argyle by myself at different times of day and evening and never feel uncomfortable. Though I'm not really one to get sketched out by my environs either.

eatchicago wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:Saturdays (especially mornings) used to be bustling and energetic on Argyle but it's just not at the level it used to be, IMO.

I agree.

Fifteen or so years ago, a weekend morning on Argyle was so crowded with Asian families that it was hard to get down the sidewalk. Parking was nearly impossible. Markets and restaurants were bursting with people. I'd estimate that it's dropped 50% or so. It seems particularly desolate to me now.

I'd chalk this up to population migration, as other people have noted. The population of these particular ethnicities is no longer primarily located around that corner.

If not for Arabs and Pakistanis moving into the Devon area, the same would have happened there as well. As a couple generations of Indian immigrants have now found success in Chicago, A high percentage of Indian families have moved away from Devon. Fortunately for Devon Ave. the peak arrival of other ethnicities lagged the immigration of Indians and kept the neighborhood vibrant.

I've got no experience on visiting Argyle in particular that qualifies me to comment on it, but I just wanted to say that this comment strikes me as conveying a positive - the City of Neighborhoods is a dynamic place. Pilsen was Irish and German and then it was Czech and Polish and such and now it's Mexican. Devon is changing. Maybe Argyle is changing. The ethnic presence in any given neighborhood waxes and wanes, rents go up, rents go down, some move out, others move in ... in the long run, (the geek in me says), the system optimizes itself.

Katie wrote:I've got no experience on visiting Argyle in particular that qualifies me to comment on it, but I just wanted to say that this comment strikes me as conveying a positive

Yes, it is conveying a positive. Although, I was trying to highlight the fact that while neighborhoods that are attractive to immigrants change over time, some have a smooth transition (Devon Ave) while others can seem a bit bumpier at times.

eatchicago wrote:

Katie wrote:I've got no experience on visiting Argyle in particular that qualifies me to comment on it, but I just wanted to say that this comment strikes me as conveying a positive

Yes, it is conveying a positive. Although, I was trying to highlight the fact that while neighborhoods that are attractive to immigrants change over time, some have a smooth transition (Devon Ave) while others can seem a bit bumpier at times.

For a more academic take on this see Japonica Brown-Saracino, A Neighborhood That Never Changes:
Gentrification, Social Preservation, and the Search for Authenticity which uses the Argyle Street area as on of its four case studies (Andersonville, Provincetown and Dresden, ME are the others). More here:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite ... ey=8066321

While "feeling comfortable walking down the street" may be the most important aspect of safety if you are just visiting the neighborhood for shopping or eating, that is a quite low standard of measurement for area crime. There are very few places where one would feel commonly, legitimately threatened walking down the street in broad daylight or early evening, esp in a group. By contrast, the type of crime and unpleasantness that are more common -- and hence more worrisome for people who live there -- in a place like Uptown (and neighboring areas such as Andersonville) are having your house or garaged tagged with spraypaint; having property stolen from your backyard, garage, or house; having a neighbor who sells drugs from the house; etc.

jbw wrote:

eatchicago wrote:

Katie wrote:I've got no experience on visiting Argyle in particular that qualifies me to comment on it, but I just wanted to say that this comment strikes me as conveying a positive

Yes, it is conveying a positive. Although, I was trying to highlight the fact that while neighborhoods that are attractive to immigrants change over time, some have a smooth transition (Devon Ave) while others can seem a bit bumpier at times.

For a more academic take on this see Japonica Brown-Saracino, A Neighborhood That Never Changes:
Gentrification, Social Preservation, and the Search for Authenticity which uses the Argyle Street area as on of its four case studies (Andersonville, Provincetown and Dresden, ME are the others). More here:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite ... ey=8066321

I read this as an undergrad and loved it. Thank you very much for this link.

nsxtasy wrote:

trpt2345 wrote:
Let's see, heading east on Argyle from Broadway: Winthrop, Kenmore, Sheridan, and then a long block to Marine Drive. No water, for that you'd need to then go through the park, under Lake Shore Drive, then another quarter mile or so to the lake.

Yes, exactly as I said.

It seems like there's always someone who just has to "explain" (or attack) the jokes instead of just enjoying them...

If you can't take it, then don't dish it.

On-topic: in my humble opinion, the best Viet restos aren't even on Argyle anymore. Nhu Lan in Lincoln Square has better banh mi and snacks and Hoanh Long in North Ravenswood / Sauganash has better pho and cooked dishes.

Argyle's main draw these days might actually be the non-Viet places, e.g. King of Thai and Sun Wah.

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:Maybe I just have a really high sketch tolerance, but I never got a bad vibe on Argyle. There are areas immediately surrounding it that I wouldn't wander alone, but the street itself is just fine.

I made the mistake of taking my wife, kids and mother once for lunch, on the only day I have ever had a problem there. we had a homeless person follow us for a block screaming obsenaties at us, totally freaking my family out. she won't go back.