I love pickles! (but...

Until last weekend, I'd never made them before. I started my pickling career after seeing a little blurb on pickling to be found in the Trib a week or so ago. I liked it because (1) it is very quick and (2) it is easy. The only ingredients are apple cider vinegar, water, kosher salt, and pickling spice.

I've got my virgin effort in the fridge and, while acceptable, the flavor doesn't seem quite right to me. I'd give the effort about a C+. Seems like there are only a few things I can change: the vinegar or the pickling spice. After visiting several stores lately, I'm dismayed to discover that there are extremely few competitors in the apple cider vinegar category. (Should I use a different kind of vinegar?) As to pickling spice, I took the lazy man's approach and bought a bottle even though I have most of the spices on hand (except mace). Should I add other things (e.g. sugar, other herbs, spices, not typically found in "pickling spice")?

I welcome any and all suggestions.

read this
http://ruhlman.com/2010/07/csa-pickles-revised-ratio.html
no vinegar used....

Try it without vinegar, for sure. My grandmother never used vinegar at all: water, salt, dill. Those are my favorite pickles.

mhill95149 wrote:read this
http://ruhlman.com/2010/07/csa-pickles-revised-ratio.html
no vinegar used....

Ruhlman's recipe is for fermented pickles, which is a different type of pickle than the vinegar-based pickles that Gypsy Boy made. Both are great. Both are completely valid forms of pickled vegetables. But they taste completely different.

Gypsy Boy, what recipe did you follow? What was wrong with the pickles?

Regarding vinegar, I usually use Heinz apple cider vinegar, though I recently bought some large jugs of Jewel brand that were much cheaper. They don't taste that different. But if you are worried, or have a more developed palate than me, Heinz will be fine and is pretty inexpensive.

The spices themselves can be easily interchanged. The exact stuff you put in there is really up to you.

You asked about including sugar. Most recipes include vinegar, water, and sugar; the latter cut the taste of the vinegar. Did you just use vinegar? The first time I made pickles using only vinegar (and spices, but no water or sugar), I couldn't get past the overly harsh taste. The pickles were good when mixed into things, but not that good on their own.

You might want to check out Alton Brown's recipes at http://www.foodnetwork.com/good-eats/am ... index.html
His stuff is usually pretty fool proof.

The Joy of Pickling is one of the best books out there on pickling and includes recipes for both fermented and vinegar pickles, made from cucumbers and just about anything else.

Gypsy Boy wrote: I took the lazy man's approach and bought a bottle even though I have most of the spices on hand (except mace).

Sounds like a fun experiment, i hope you post your further results as Ill be following with interest.

Buying the pickling spice is hardly the lazy mans approach..., buying a jar of pickles, and then reusing the pickling liquid by tossing cucumber spears into it and then tossing the jar in the fridge for a few weeks as I do is alot lazier.

By the way, Michael Symon's pickled pepper recipe (via Ruhlman) is excellent:
http://ruhlman.com/2009/03/michael-symo ... illis.html

jimswside wrote:

Gypsy Boy wrote: I took the lazy man's approach and bought a bottle even though I have most of the spices on hand (except mace).

Sounds like a fun experiment, i hope you post your further results as Ill be following with interest.

Buying the pickling spice is hardly the lazy mans approach..., buying a jar of pickles, and then reusing the pickling liquid by tossing cucumber spears into it and then tossing the jar in the fridge for a few weeks as I do is alot lazier.

I think the real lazy man's approach is to just buy pickles at the store!

The Trib recipe was:

1 cup cider vinegar
1/2 cup water, plus more, if needed
2 teaspoons each kosher salt, pickling spice

I used whatever generic apple cider vinegar we had in the house (not Heinz, but I'm inclined to believe, as you suggested, that the flavor won't change dramatically) and probably a tablespoon of pickling spice instead of 2 tsp.

There's nothing whatsoever "wrong" with them; they're pickles and they taste like pickles. They're just not to my taste. (How's that for a helpful description? ). I don't mind the sour (in fact I like it), but sugar is probably an experiment worth trying.

Since they're so easy to make and since I like so many different things pickled, this strikes me as an easy recipe to keep making until I find an approach I like. The problem is that since I have no pickling experience, I'm not sure what direction to take my experiments. Everything posted so far is wonderful. (I had no idea that I didn't need vinegar, for example). For which, my thanks.


(edited to clarify)

Just to clarify, in case it wasn't obvious, the fermented pickles (i.e. those without vinegar) require that you let the pickles ferment in the brine (i.e. the salt water) for anywhere from 1 to 8 weeks, depending on what you are going for. You'll probably also want to skim the scum that develops daily, and watch closely for any mold. I've got a batch going right now that I started on Saturday.

Gypsy Boy wrote:The Trib recipe was:

1 cup cider vinegar
1/2 cup water, plus more, if needed
2 teaspoons each kosher salt, pickling spice

I used whatever generic apple cider vinegar we had in the house (not Heinz, but I'm inclined to believe, as you suggested, that the flavor won't change dramatically) and probably a tablespoon of pickling spice instead of 2 tsp.

There's nothing whatsoever "wrong" with them; they're pickles and they taste like pickles. They're just not to my taste. (How's that for a helpful description? ). I don't mind the sour, but sugar is probably an experiment worth trying.

Since they're so easy to make and since I like so many different things pickled, this strikes me as an easy recipe to keep making until I find an approach I like. The problem is that since I have no pickling experience, I'm not sure what direction to take my experiments. Everything posted so far is wonderful. (I had no idea that I didn't need vinegar, for example). For which, my thanks.

Based on the pickles I just made, I think the amount of pickling spice you used was too much. I used approximately the same amount of pickling spice for double the volume of liquid. Also, using some sugar to cut the vinegar probably isn't a bad idea, but in the case of the pickles I made, the ratio of vinegar to sugar is 2:1, and those are distinctly a sweet-and-sour variety. If you don't want pickles as sweet as that, then you'll want to adjust that ratio downward.

Gypsy Boy wrote:There's nothing whatsoever "wrong" with them; they're pickles and they taste like pickles. They're just not to my taste. (How's that for a helpful description? ). I don't mind the sour, but sugar is probably an experiment worth trying.

If your taste is a deli-style dill (or a half-sour, which is my preferred style), definitely try experimenting with fermented pickle recipes.

For a quart jar of quick pickles, I generally use:

1 1/4 cup water
1 1/4 cup vinegar (if you want more sour, try white vinegar, or increase the vinegar ratio; I also like rice wine vinegar)
About 20 black peppercorns
2 tablespoons of kosher or pickling salt
2 tablespoons of sugar (which is the minimum I use if I want a straight sour pickle)
2 teaspoons of dill seed
Some fresh dill
Some hot peppers, dried or fresh, amount varying depending on how hot I want it
A few bay leaves
half dozen garlic cloves, whole and lightly smashed

Put the items to be pickled, garlic, and fresh dill in a quart jar. Put the rest of the ingredients in a pot. Bring to a boil, and then simmer for about ten minutes. While still hot, pour contents of pot into quart jar. Lid should be loose until the ingredients cool. Once cool, tighten lid and refrigerate.

I tried the Spice House pickling spice, and I really didn't like it for quick pickles. Too much going on. I have tried adding some mustard seed and other spices with some success.

I've used this recipe for cucumber pickles, as well as some other veggies. I find adjusting the sugar to be the biggest challenge.

I'm also a fan of fermenting pickles and have five pounds stinking up the basement that I need to check on tonight. Fermenting pickles is in some ways even easier than quick pickles.

Ronna

REB wrote:For a quart jar of quick pickles, I generally use...

Ronna

HOT DAMN! An answer from the Pickle Queen (TM).

Seriously, I appreciate the response (I still recall the pickles from the picnic with great fondness!). A few questions, though. As I pulled the cider vinegar down, I paused a moment as I saw the rice wine vinegar. I decided that it would be too mild, though. Thoughts?

Also, re the pickling spice: is there a particular item in the pickling spice you find you didn't care for or is it something else, such as the proportions?

Glad to hear you used garlic. That was the other item I was seriously considering adding. In it goes!

Gypsy Boy wrote:As I pulled the cider vinegar down, I paused a moment as I saw the rice wine vinegar. I decided that it would be too mild, though. Thoughts?

I haven't tried using rice wine vinegar, but plenty of people do.

Note that if you were going to can the pickles (i.e. process them in a boiling water bath) for long-term storage, you need to use vinegar with at least a 5% acidity. The acidity should be printed on the label. Not all rice wine vinegars are at 5%.

If you don't process the jars, and just store the pickles in the fridge, then you don't need to worry about the acidity of the vinegar. Though pickles made with lower-acidity vinegar will probably go bad more quickly.

The pickling spice mix from The Spice House is the secret to my pickles-- it is loads better than regular storebought. Also, your pickles sound kind of generic-- I agree they need some garlic, or dill, or something. Happy pickling!

Jen

Gypsy Boy wrote:

REB wrote:For a quart jar of quick pickles, I generally use...

Ronna

HOT DAMN! An answer from the Pickle Queen (TM).

Seriously, I appreciate the response (I still recall the pickles from the picnic with great fondness!). A few questions, though. As I pulled the cider vinegar down, I paused a moment as I saw the rice wine vinegar. I decided that it would be too mild, though. Thoughts?

Also, re the pickling spice: is there a particular item in the pickling spice you find you didn't care for or is it something else, such as the proportions?

Glad to hear you used garlic. That was the other item I was seriously considering adding. In it goes!

That's Pickle Princess (TM), if you don't mind!!

Glad you're remembering last summer's pickles fondly.

I've only used rice wine vinegar a few times for pickling, mainly because, even in large quantities, it's so much pricier than cider or white. I didn't find it to be too mild for quick pickles, but I remember using it to pickle enoki mushrooms, which absorbed the pickling liquid.

It's been over a year since I used the pickling spice from Spice House, so I don't recall exactly what it was that I didn't like. I think I like a simpler pickle and having more control over the balance of the ingredients.

Just in the last week or so, I made my first quick pickles in months. My new best friend: the mandoline. I made four jars of thinly sliced cucumbers in no time. I can't believe I used to slice them by hand.

Ronna

REB wrote:That's Pickle Princess (TM), if you don't mind!!

I know I surely don't mind. While we're on the subject, I'm just in the middle of my lunch today, and on the side of my sandwich, I'm enjoying a pile of my very own Pickle Princess's Quick Pickled Banana Peppers. Wow, these are fantastic. Best I've ever had. The flavor is spot on with the traditional commercially jarred varieties, but there is an intense brightness to them that I'm loving. Also, they have a crunchy snap that you just can't get out of a jar at the supermarket.

I'm sure that Ronna will share the recipe if anyone is interested.

--Rich

Hi,

I don't quite know what was objectionable to in the pickles you made.

I make bread and butter as well as fermented pickles. The fermented pickles are ready to eat after brining for roughly a month. If you want a new pickle, you can simply eat it before fully fermented.

Bread and butter made with white or cider vinegar need time to soften. I have found them too harsh when freshly made. Wait six to eight weeks for them to mellow and they are quite acceptable.

Cook's Illustrated did make quick pickles with rice vinegar. They did this because they didn't want to wait the time needed for this mellowing. The rice vinegar is suitable for refrigerator pickles, because it is a lower acid product than white and cider vinegar.

If you are canning pickles, rice vinegar is too low in acid. You do want cider and white vinegars in the 5% acidity range. If you substitute vinegars, they still need to be at least 5% acid. More on canning pickles can be found here: National Center for Home Food Preservation.

If you are keeping pickles for the long term: use canning salt only. That is not Kosher or table salt, but canning salt. Why? Canning salt has no fillers, iodine or flowing agents. Kosher salt has flowing agents. Anything but pure salt will cause your product to darken.

Regards,

Cathy2 wrote:If you are keeping pickles for the long term: use canning salt only. That is not Kosher or table salt, but canning salt. Why? Canning salt has no fillers, iodine or flowing agents. Kosher salt has flowing agents. Anything but pure salt will cause your product to darken.

Pickling/canning salt is one of the world's greatest products. Besides the purity that Cathy mentioned, it also dissolves in cold water. This is really useful for making brines for meat or for making fermented pickles because it means you don't need to heat the water first.

Morton's pickling salt comes in a green box that looks very similar to their dark blue kosher salt box. The Morton Salt website has a store locator that will tell you nearby stores that carry this product. I tend to have better luck finding it at Dominicks.

For beginning picklers and canners the Ball Canning Bible is a really helpful tool. Once you understand the basics you can experiment with flavors. I think you'd be happier with brined pickles, I have a 1/2 bushel fermenting happily away in my basement.

HI,

I use the Ball Book, but it is not my bible. I always go to USDA approved recipes for correct ratios of vinegar-salt-sugar and processing time.

Regards,

Gypsy Boy, that Tribune article caught my attention too, because I've just started trying to make quick pickles. I'll get to fermented pickles eventually, but I'm not in a real big hurry - something about Ruhlman's mention of a shag-carpet-type wad of something that formed on the surface of his put me off. I've got enough food science projects going on around here, testing Sweet Baboo's patience, as it is.

I've made Japanese-style quick pickles with rice wine vinegar a couple of times (and have another batch going right now), using this recipe from the kitchn blog. I've done it with and without the seaweed (I keep some dried wakame seaweed in the cabinet to make miso soup occasionally - and now I have something else to do with it). The one ingredient quantity that I thought was wrong or ridiculous was 2 tbsp of white sesame seeds. I just used about a teaspoon's worth.

First: thanks to all those who have posted. I've been learning a lot.

Second: to clarify (?) what I don't care for about this first-ever batch is the flavor. It's just not "right." They have a nice crunch and I like the level of sour. There's nothing "wrong" with the flavor except that it's not so much one I like. (And as I was snarfing down a few yesterday, I tried to identify what, precisely, it was that I didn't care for and I couldn't. Sorry.)

Third: I'm inclined to try brined/fermented pickles now and wonder, Is more more? Meaning, as I contemplate what exactly I want to add to the brine, am I correct in assuming that the more stuff I throw in, the greater the depth of flavor? Or, contrariwise, am I better off going the simple route? I can see arguments for both approaches but as a complete ignoramus on the subject, I seek wisdom. ( )

Gypsy Boy wrote:Third: I'm inclined to try brined/fermented pickles now and wonder, Is more more? Meaning, as I contemplate what exactly I want to add to the brine, am I correct in assuming that the more stuff I throw in, the greater the depth of flavor? Or, contrariwise, am I better off going the simple route? I can see arguments for both approaches but as a complete ignoramus on the subject, I seek wisdom. ( )

I think less is more, but as only you know the taste you're looking for, here's my wisdom: It's a pretty inexpensive experiment.

Gypsy Boy - I know this isn't an entirely satisfying answer to the question "is more better," but it depends. The current batch of cucumbers that I have fermenting right now sort of follow your idea of having a lot of ingredients, going for a more complex flavor. I have a mixture of probably 10 spices, a little chile pepper, and some dill; pretty much the same stuff you'd find in a traditional pickling spice mix. But "more" can also turn into a mish-mosh where you don't exactly know what is going on, flavors aren't in balance, etc. You get an indefinable traditional pickle flavor. On the other hand, having only a few aromatics in the brine can absolutely produce a good product, you can pick out the individual flavors, etc.

The Joy of Pickling has quite a few recipes that add only 3-4 ingredients to the basic brine. I've made one some of these (but usually can't resist tweaking for the sake of tweaking) and they are great. For example, one simply contains chopped horseradish, mustard seeds, and dill.

One recipe that I'm looking forward to trying is called Robert's Tea Pickles and it includes Sichuan peppercorns, lapsong souchong tea, garlic and chile peppers.

I think the biggest variable with a fermented pickle is the brine strength (i.e. how much salt to water you use).

gypsyboy,

From this batch you recently made, why not tuck some in the back of the refrigerator to try again in 6-8 weeks. You might find them more to your liking or you might not, however you will likely see a taste shift. This alone may be good information for your future endeavors.

Or bring them to the picnic in 5 weeks for everyone to taste and it will be out of your hair pronto.

Regards,

Agreed. It depends what you like and experimentation is cheap.

I tend to like simpler. For example, my currently fermenting pickles only contain: pickles, water, salt, garlic, fresh dill, and dried hot peppers. If I fermented more, I might play around more, but this seems to work. And, it's the way my grandmother made them, which happily reminds me of my childhood. Pickles have been in for almost two weeks. They taste good, but need another week. A few other tips: use the smallest pickles you can find for fermenting and snip off the ends which apparently contain a substance that makes the pickles soft.

Also agree with Cathy that flavors really change in the fridge. I've kept quick pickles for months and it's interesting to see how flavors develop. I find that some get too punchy after six weeks or so.

Ronna

Cathy2 wrote:...Or bring them to the picnic in 5 weeks for everyone to taste and it will be out of your hair pronto.

With fond memories of the Pickle Princess's contribution from last year's picnic so firmly ensconced (entrenched?) in my mind [see above], I would embarrassed--nay, mortified and humiliated--to bring anything less than a superb, virtuoso effort. If they ain't the best damn pickles I've tasted, they ain't comin' to the picnic!

REB wrote:..use the smallest pickles you can find for fermenting and snip off the ends which apparently contain a substance that makes the pickles soft.

Just confirming that you refer specifically to pickling cukes, yes?

Gypsy Boy wrote:

REB wrote:..use the smallest pickles you can find for fermenting and snip off the ends which apparently contain a substance that makes the pickles soft.

Just confirming that you refer specifically to pickling cukes, yes?

It is the blossom end that has this softening chemical in it. You only need take off 1/16th inch off. The stem does not have this property.

Regards,