Dim Sum (Asian) Rec in Toronto?

We are driving up to Toronto to Catch the Hawks in Buffalo and will spend the week in The Toronto/Niagara area. I hear allot about the amazing food in Toronto and I am an Asian food junkie...any specific recommendations especially for Dim Sum

great chinese place is pearl harbour

globetrotter wrote:great chinese place is pearl harbour

I think you mean Pearl Harbourfront.

http://www.pearlharbourfront.ca/

tatterdemalion wrote:

globetrotter wrote:great chinese place is pearl harbour

I think you mean Pearl Harbourfront.

http://www.pearlharbourfront.ca/

+1 thanks

I made a recent trip to Toronto and Niagara Falls. We had a great time. I've been working on a post of my entire trip, but things at work have been very busy, so I haven't had a chance to post anything yet. This inquiry has spurred me on to at least post about the dim sum portion of my trip.

As soon as we arrived in Toronto, I met up with a business associate for a quick get together at a place near the airport that he recommended, Grand Chinese Cuisine, located in the Doubletree Hotel. This place specializes in dim sum as well as Peking Duck. Unfortunately, we arrived right at dim sum closing time and were shuttled off to a side room rather than the rather good looking main dining room, and the offerings were very limited. This place has possibilities, but my limited experience keeps me from being able to give it a full recommendation, although if you are looking for dim sum near the airport, this place would fill the bill.

Next up was the highly touted Lai Wah Heen. Just about any review of Toronto dim sum mentions this place as the best, highest end, dim sum in town with special dim sum chefs flown in from mainland China. Lai Wah Heen is located on the second floor of the Metropolitan Hotel in downtown Toronto (which boasts four Chinatowns, BTW) and is a beautiful white tablecloth restaurant with tuxedoed waiters. The place is a little sterile, though. It's the kind of place where you can hear a pin drop and even the sound of replacing your teacup on its saucer would cause everyone's head to turn to see what the ruckus was about. It was so quiet, that I didn't snap any pictures for fear my camera's shutter would disturb the other patrons. The food is prepared with the finest ingredients using very sophisticated technique. Unfortunately, despite all of the precision used in crafting the food, it has no soul. Even the chili oil, which the waiter proudly proclaimed to be made in house, packed little to no zing. This place reminded me of a British Colonial restaurant where foreigners could come to sample the local cuisine without having to get their hands dirty with any of the local culture. If you're looking for the highest end dim sum experience (with prices to match) Lai Wah Heen is well worth checking out. For me, it fell short after all the buildup.

Business brought me to the suburb of Markham. Markham could easily be mistaken for Schaumburg with one big difference. The entire town is a Chinese enclave. I came across every conceivable kind of store including the fabulous T&T Supermarket with is an H-Mart sized Chinese grocery store featuring items that cover the entire gamut of Chinese food; from produce, meat and staples to ready made food (dim sum to full meals). This store made me wish I had a kitchen rather than just a hotel room, but there were prepared items to go that would have made a great lunch had we not already planed to visit Ding Tai Fung, which is a Shanghai dim sum restaurant that came highly recommended on Urbanspoon as well as a couple other food related websites like Chowhound. At Ding Tai Fung, we finally hit the jackpot.

Ding Tai Fung


Ding Tai Fung is located in First Markham Place, a large strip mall which itself has a great food court worthy of a visit. The dumplings at Ding Tai Fung are handmade in an open kitchen for all to see.

Dumpling Manufacturing




Rather than cart service, you order off of a menu. The order sheet is in Chinese with no English at all, but there is an English menu available and the numbers on the menu correspond to the numbers on the ordering sheet, so once I figured that out, ordering was a breeze.

Ding Tai Fung Ordering Sheet


While I've not sampled nearly the number of different soup dumplings as Pigmon, I'll go out on a limb and say that their soup dumplings were the best I've ever had. The wrappers were thin and delicate and the soup inside was rich and flavorful. I can honestly say that I've never had a soup dumpling approaching these anywhere in Chicago.

Ding Tai Fung Soup Dumplings




In addition to the soup dumplings, which were the only item that were a "must have", we rounded out the meal with a few other offerings.

Ding Tai Fung Chive Pancake


Ding Tai Fung Szechuan String Beans W/Ground Pork


Ding Tai Fung Rice Cake W/Chinese Vegetable


Ding Tai Fung Har Gao (which contain Pork as well as shrimp)


There wasn't a clunker in the bunch. Everything was delicious. Even the normally dim sum averse Chow Poodle enjoyed this meal. It's a bit of a schlep out of Toronto, but it's well worth the 20 - 30 minute trip to Markham to check out Ding Tai Fung and the other delights of Chinese Suburbia. I can't recommend this place enough. It was one of the two best meals I had on the entire trip.



Grand Chinese Cuisine
Doubletree Hotel
655 Dixon Road
Toronto, ON
416-248-9898

Lai Wah Heen
Metropolitan Hotel
118 Chestnut Street
Toronto, ON
416-977-9899

T&T Supermarket
7070 Warden ave
Markham, ON

Ding Tai Fung
3235 Hwy 7
Markham, ON
905-943-9880

steve fantastic post. I was in markham almost 15 years ago and couldn't remmeber the name last time I was in Toronto, trying to get somebody to suggest a place in the northern subhurbs. next time I go back I'll hit that place.

globetrotter wrote:next time I go back I'll hit that place.

Yeah. It's now on my "must visit" list as well.

I would recommend skipping Lai Wah Heen and instead hitting Lai Toh Heen, its sister restaurant. The quality at LWH has been on a decline for the past few years, whereas LTH (hey hey, what a coincidence!) is getting better.

Edited to add: I've actually been to the original Din Tai Fung in Shanghai, and the one in TO is just as good

Puppy wrote:I've actually been to the original Din Tai Fung in Shanghai, and the one in TO is just as good

The original is in Taipei. From the ones I've been to, they do a very good job of putting out a consistent and first rate product. Wish they would open in Chicago or at least NYC.

Hao wrote:

Puppy wrote:I've actually been to the original Din Tai Fung in Shanghai, and the one in TO is just as good

The original is in Taipei. From the ones I've been to, they do a very good job of putting out a consistent and first rate product. Wish they would open in Chicago or at least NYC.

I don't think Ding Tai Fung in Markham (Toronto) is related to the famous Din Tai Fung chain that began in Taipei. According to the Din Tai Fung website their only North American branches are in Arcadia (Los Angeles). A couple months ago they posted this notice about the imposters.

Din Tai Fung, Arcadia CA

Hao wrote:

Puppy wrote:I've actually been to the original Din Tai Fung in Shanghai, and the one in TO is just as good

The original is in Taipei. From the ones I've been to, they do a very good job of putting out a consistent and first rate product. Wish they would open in Chicago or at least NYC.

I've eaten at their home office in Taipai, which was fantastic, and then also in their several branches in Singapore. spectacular product. love to have one in chicago

Although it may be true that the Toronto restaurant isn't related to another restaurant of the same name in Shanghai, it's a great place serving some of the best dim sum I've ever had. I also don't believe they claim to be related to any other restaurant outside of the greater Toronto area. I think they have a second branch somewhere in the area, but that's it.

Rene G wrote:I don't think Ding Tai Fung in Markham (Toronto) is related to the famous Din Tai Fung chain that began in Taipei. According to the Din Tai Fung website their only North American branches are in Arcadia (Los Angeles). A couple months ago they posted this notice about the imposters.

That's interesting info. The Toronto impostor appears to put out a good product, judging by the photos, but unless there is more to the story, it does seem really wrong for them to be copying the name. Also, the kitchen does look less pristine than the DTF branches I've seen.

stevez wrote:Although it may be true that the Toronto restaurant isn't related to another restaurant of the same name in Shanghai, it's a great place serving some of the best dim sum I've ever had. I also don't believe they claim to be related to any other restaurant outside of the greater Toronto area. I think they have a second branch somewhere in the area, but that's it.

There are DTF branches in Shanghai but the chain started in Taipei. Also, it's not really dim sum. XLB isn't really a traditional dim sum item, although I think the authorized DTF branches may generally offer a dumpling or two that is close to traditional dim sum, as well as many non-dim sum items.

stevez wrote:Although it may be true that the Toronto restaurant isn't related to another restaurant of the same name in Shanghai, it's a great place serving some of the best dim sum I've ever had. I also don't believe they claim to be related to any other restaurant outside of the greater Toronto area. I think they have a second branch somewhere in the area, but that's it.

There are DTF branches in Shanghai but the chain started in Taipei. Also, it's not really dim sum. XLB isn't really a traditional dim sum item, although I think the authorized DTF branches may generally offer a dumpling or two that is close to traditional dim sum, as well as many non-dim sum items.[/quote]

the menu is very simple, with some dumplings and some noodle dishes, as well as a very limited range of drinks. also, they are usually open late at night, serving more a lunch to dinner to after dinner crowd than a typical dim sum crowd.

As usual you guys are the best travel agent in the world, cant wait to go to the places you guys mentioned

thanks again

One is set to open in Seattle. Not entirely clear if it's legit:

http://www.seattlemet.com/blogs/nosh-pi ... vue-82610/

JeffB wrote:One is set to open in Seattle. Not entirely clear if it's legit:

This discussion has raised a question for me. When I hear people referring to Ding Tai Fung in Markham as "illegitimate" or "impostor" it makes me wonder why this is so. I've eaten at Giacomo's in Monte Carlo, at Giacomo's in Boston and Giacomo's in Des Plaines. All three serve Italian food and two of the three can justifiably be called "world famous"; yet none of the three claim to be a branch of any of the other. Are they impostors? If so, which one is the legitimate one?

I raise this question because, as I said upthread, DTF in Markham is not claiming to be associated with the restaurant of the same name in Shanghai or Taipei, it just happens to have the same name. So why the disdain for a place that serves up some great dim sum? I could see the problem if they were claiming to be something they are not, but that's not the case here.

stevez wrote:This discussion has raised a question for me. When I hear people referring to Ding Tai Fung in Markham as "illegitimate" or "impostor" it makes me wonder why this is so. I've eaten at Giacomo's in Monte Carlo, at Giacomo's in Boston and Giacomo's in Des Plaines. All three serve Italian food and two of the three can justifiably be called "world famous"; yet none of the three claim to be a branch of any of the other. Are they impostors? If so, which one is the legitimate one?

I raise this question because, as I said upthread, DTF in Markham is not claiming to be associated with the restaurant of the same name in Shanghai or Taipei, it just happens to have the same name. So why the disdain for a place that serves up some great dim sum? I could see the problem if they were claiming to be something they are not, but that's not the case here.

Setting aside any legal issues, do we really think the one in Markham is not attempting to trade off the fame of the original chain from Taipei? The distinctive name, the calligraphy, the featured menu item? Is that all coincidence? Seems a bit disingenuous on their part if that is the claim. If they want to copy the original, and if there are no particular constraints on them doing so, then it is what it is, but they are copying by any reasonable standard of evidence.

Would be interested in opinions of anyone who has been to the Markham place and to a licensed branch on quality.

Hao wrote:Setting aside any legal issues, do we really think the one in Markham is not attempting to trade off the fame of the original chain from Taipei?

FWIW, until this thread, I had never heard of the one in Taipei.

about a billion chinese have heard of the one in Taipie

stevez wrote:FWIW, until this thread, I had never heard of the one in Taipei.

Well, that's great, but knowing what you now know, or could easily verify on the internets, do you have any significant doubt they are trying to trade off the established chain? We could, I suppose, have a debate about whether that is right or not. I don't see how there can be any real question that copying is what they are doing.

Hao wrote:

stevez wrote:FWIW, until this thread, I had never heard of the one in Taipei.

Well, that's great, but knowing what you now know, or could easily verify on the internets, do you have any significant doubt they are trying to trade off the established chain? We could, I suppose, have a debate about whether that is right or not. I don't see how there can be any real question that copying is what they are doing.

So does that mean that if you were in Toronto you wouldn't eat there?

Hao wrote:We could, I suppose, have a debate about whether that is right or not.

So the guy asked for dim sum recos in Toronto, Steve gave, by all accounts, a terrific one, and now we are inditing them and, by extension, Steve for having an enjoyable meal. The internet is a strange place, a strange place indeed.

stevez wrote:So does that mean that if you were in Toronto you wouldn't eat there?

I can't tell if that means you agree they have copied the original chain. In any event, to answer your question sincerely, I was first going to say that I wasn't sure if I would or not. Upon some further consideration, I think I would not (although I would not indite anyone for going there). And this is coming from someone who: (a) would and has gone hours out of the way for good XLB, (b) does not doubt that the XLB at the Toronto place may well be the best in north america outside of the west coast (and may be in the running with those on the west coast).

G Wiv wrote:So the guy asked for dim sum recos in Toronto, Steve gave, by all accounts, a terrific one, and now we are inditing them and, by extension, Steve for having an enjoyable meal. The internet is a strange place, a strange place indeed.

Look, I get that it was a special experience for stevez. And I genuinely don't want to diminish his experience (nor should what I have said done so given his view of the world). One's first truly first rate XLB is an experience indeed. But it seems fairly clear to me that the Toronto location is trying to trade off the fame of the original. That's all I'm trying to say and I'm, frankly, surprised that is a controversial statement.

Hao wrote:I can't tell if that means you agree they have copied the original chain.

I'm not qualified to say if the restaurant in Toronto copied the one in Taipei since
a) As I said earlier I had never heard of the one in Taipei before you mentioned it and
b) Since I've never been to the one in Taipei (or Shanghai or wherever) how would I know? For that matter, if you haven't been to the one in Toronto, how would you know?

If someone is putting out a good product,
I'll likely eat there. Especially if the "original"
has no outpost trying to compete against
the "imposter". Build a "Johnny's" or "Mr. Beaf"
near me that puts out a good sammich, and
they will get my business. Sorry "Johnnie's"
and "Mr. Beef".

stevez wrote:I've never been to the one in Taipei (or Shanghai or wherever) how would I know?

I didn't realize that was the only way to know things.

stevez wrote:For that matter, if you haven't been to the one in Toronto, how would you know?

Factors that collectively seem pretty dispositive, to me are:

1. Timing. The Taipei-originated branch predates the Markham one by at least a decade, probably longer.
2. Name. The characters are pretty distinctive. It's not either (a) a common name like James's dumpling house or (b) a name that is particular to the product like Famous Xiao Long Bao restaurant.
3. Product. XLB is featured.
4. Branding. Compare the style of calligraphy.
5. Incentive. DTF really is famous. I fully believe that you did not know the potential or implied relationship (the chowhound and urban spoon comments I just looked at now do discuss this, although perhaps they were not there when you looked at them or perhaps you looked at different comments). But DTF is famous enough on a worldwide basis, and among the likely customers of the restaurant, that it might well be profitable to try to trade off the brand of the original.

In addition, just based on a very quick googling now, there appear to be much on the internets saying that they copied the Taipei chain and nothing that I saw with a story for how they came upon the name/branding/business model by themselves (which I would think might be the case were there such a story to be told).

I'm shocked, shocked to learn that there's a lack of respect for intellectual property rights in China!

(yes, I realize the lack of respect is actually in Canada)

I'm Still going, regardless of its a copy or not...and I cant wait!

Gotta say I'm not entirely understanding why Hao is getting grief. Stevez had a terrific experience and wrote up a wonderful review to highlight it. No one is questioning that. Hao then writes in to point out that the Toronto restaurant is trading on the fame of one in Taipei. Never having heard of either place, I have no dog in this discussion. But I don't think Hao said or implied anything that invalidated Stevez's experience. Hell, he even posted a couple more times making clear that he wasn't trying to denigrate or detract from Stevez's great time.

Haven't we all--at one time or another--been surprised when someone else hasn't been familiar with something, some fact, some place, some person, that we were absolutely sure the rest of the world knew about? Hao was wrong in this case. Stevez didn't know about the Taipei place. Okay; it happens.

I do not understand how Hao's post, in any way, indicted Steve for having an enjoyable meal. He was evidently surprised that the Toronto place could be so good, given his additional knowledge, but disagreements aren't exactly unheard of on LTH. I haven't--and wouldn't--attempt to count the threads on LTH where restaurateurs have been taken to task for doing precisely what Hao claims the Toronto place is doing. Why can't we accept two disparate facts? that Stevez had a terrific experience and also accept that the Toronto place is doing what Hao claims?