Sumac, Sourness, Strangeness at Grape Leaves, Oak Park

Sumac, Sourness, Strangeness at Grape Leaves, Oak Park

When I was a Boy Scout, the only sumac I knew about was Poison Sumac, so the first time I saw this ingredient on a menu, I was intrigued.

There is, of course, a difference between the kind of sumac that grows in Chicago forest preserves and the spice that’s found in some Middle Eastern food. One may cause a severe allergic reaction and the other adds a slight citrus note.

Sumac is sprinkled over hummus, onions, rice, and in the case of the sandwich I had at Grape Leaves in Oak Park for lunch today, chicken. I like sumac. It’s a subtle spice, and I don’t have it often, so it’s a novelty.



Oddly, the sandwich of chicken with slightly sour sumac was filled with slices of lemon, adding to the overall acid trip of a lunch. I wasn’t sure if this lemon was mistakenly included in my sandwich, but there was a lot in there. The sandwich was listed on the menu as being made of “chicken breast,” but mine was mostly dark meat, which was more than fine with me, but also strange.

Equally strange: Mike G’s babaganoush seemed to be drizzled with vinegar rather than lemon, yielding a not very pleasant flavor profile.

Strange.

Grape Leaves Restaurant
129 S. Oak Park Ave.
708.848.5555

Funny, just last night I tossed out a whole container of shawarma from Dawali because it was too intensely sour for me to enjoy. This had never happened before in the many times I'd ordered from Dawali, so maybe there is some kind of Middle Eastern holiday ritual taking place this week.

David Hammond wrote:When I was a Boy Scout, the only sumac I knew about was Poison Sumac, so the first time I saw this ingredient on a menu, I was intrigued.

There is, of course, a difference between the kind of sumac that grows in Chicago forest preserves and the spice that’s found in some Middle Eastern food. One may cause a severe allergic reaction and the other adds a slight citrus note.

The Mediterranean spice sumac is Rhus coriaria, also known as Sicilian sumac or Tanner's sumac. Poison sumac is Toxicodendron vernix or Rhus vernix, and closely related to poison ivy (Toxicodendron radicans, Rhus toxicodendron or Rhus radicans).

Two North American species also to be found in the forest preserves, smooth sumac (Rhus glabra) and staghorn sumac (Rhus typhina), were used by Native Americans in cooking. I'm surprised the Boy Scouts didn't teach you to make "Indian lemonade" from the berries.

There are some 250 related Rhus species, many of which are apt to cause allergic reactions, along with other plants in the family Anacardiacea, such as mangoes, cashews and gingko. I am highly allergic to staghorn sumac -- to the extent that I'll react if I simply walk through woods where it's growing -- but don't seem to have any trouble ingesting the Middle Eastern spice, which is typically one of the components of the seasoning blend za'atar, along with thyme and sesame seeds (among other variants).

I am not certain whether this difference has mostly to do with varying levels of allergens among the species or with the respective plant parts. (For example, what most people react to in poison ivy, et al., is urushiol, a component in the sap. Urushiol is present in mango peel but not the flesh, so people sensitive to it can eat ripe mangoes, so long as they avoid contact with the skin.)

We ordered from Grape Leaves once. Never again. I vividly recall one dish having water chestnuts in it where one would not expect water chestnuts-- and not in a way that made for a surprisingly nice addition. It was all very odd.

Hmm, I ate at Grape Leaves a few months ago...did not notice anything strange but by the same token I would not really go out of my way to go back. Still looking for my "dream hummus". I guess I'll have to make it myself. I won't put sumac in it though.

Kennyz wrote:Funny, just last night I tossed out a whole container of shawarma from Dawali because it was too intensely sour for me to enjoy. This had never happened before in the many times I'd ordered from Dawali, so maybe there is some kind of Middle Eastern holiday ritual taking place this week.

I really like Dawali but their shawarma is probably not something I'd order again. I think it's very acidic/sour but figured -- the couple times I had it -- that that was the intended style. I've had it prepared similarly at other places, so it didn't strike me as odd. This sounds like it was way beyond that, since you've had it before and liked it.

Separately, regarding sumac, I like a little sprinkled on top of the hummus, along with some half-sharp paprika, freshly-ground toasted cumin and a drizzle of really good olive.

=R=

I ate at Grape Leaves a few months ago, my stomach still turns when I think of it. I love middle eastern food and live about 2 blocks from them. I won't go back. Sumac is a common spice at most Persian restaurants. It sits next to the salt and pepper on the table. Usually, it is sprinkled on rice to add flavor.

I saw a MikeG reference on Twitter to a Middle Eastern restaurant run by Asians before I saw this thread, and I immediately knew he meant Grape Leaves. Odd, how a place in Oak Park serves to underscore one's prejudices and assumptions about cuisines and such. I'm sure I've made the point before here or on Chowhound, but there used to be a time when I'd sneak into the back to check out the staff, looking for the Arab owner, before committing to a meal there. Of course it has been ages since seeing this guy by the shwarma spit, and I've given up eating there as I find the food just awful.* (A shame too as the food here was once very good, especially a sumac dusted salad).

Mike speculated that the staff was Korean, but I have good reason to believe that they are actually Mongolian. I have no idea why this band of non-Arabs took to working at a Middle Eastern restaurant, but I always wondered if they were connected in some way to the missionary Concordia which is nearby in River Forest.

I've purchased "local" sumac from some urban ag kids at the Eastern Market in Detroit. I think sumac is an essential and crucial component of fattoush salad.

*I find myself having to eat Grape Leaves occasionally because they cater many events at my Synagogue, so I continue to know what crap it is.

Vital Information wrote:I have good reason to believe that they are actually Mongolian. I have no idea why this band of non-Arabs took to working at a Middle Eastern restaurant

The food's being no good doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the staff's ethnicity. There's no reason a Mongolian chef can't cook Middle Eastern food as well as a Mexican can.

LAZ wrote:

Vital Information wrote:I have good reason to believe that they are actually Mongolian. I have no idea why this band of non-Arabs took to working at a Middle Eastern restaurant

The food's being no good doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the staff's ethnicity. There's no reason a Mongolian chef can't cook Middle Eastern food as well as a Mexican can.

Maybe they took to working there because it was a paying job. And, to LAZ's point: how many Mexicans and others from various Latin American countries work in kitchens where the cuisine being prepared is not their native cuisine. Though you can disagree with him about a lot, I think Anthony Bourdain has done a terrific service in recognizing and emphasizing his (and others') kitchen staffs where the folks making your fine French food are Mexican, Guatemalan, etc.

Maybe...

But there are a couple of things at work here. First of all, to most of you, this just another restaurant covered on LTH, perhaps one with an amusing story. For those who live nearby, it is/was a place worth visiting, a place providing chow and a cuisine not otherwise available in OP. In other words, some have a bit more reason to care about this place. Or in other other words, all things considered, if you were just looking for a Middle Eastern restaurant, do you need to care about this one?

So here's the other thing at work here: the question. Oak Park has other restaurants of "ethnic" variety that are mostly pretty lousy versions (even if some people, not naming names, like certain Greek ones), but they mostly make sense. I can blame the owners of New Pot or Khyber Pass for putting out bad food. With Grape Leaves, how do we assess the blame?

It seems like a classic Occam's Razor/Sherlock Holmes type of thing. What is the simplest answer. It is not a question of whether anyone can cook a certain cuisine--count me a big Bayless fan. It is a question of CAN they do it. And it Grape Leaves the question is most assuredly no. The theoretical can they gets us no where. Given that awful understanding of the cuisine, the ultimate question stands for me, why. Why are they doing it. I'm sure they business at Grape Leaves is no where close to what it once was when they served palatable food.

Interestingly, if you google "Grape Leaves Oak Park," you'll see a couple different sets of reviews (e.g., Yelp, as well as 60 "google" reviews that may have been picked up from other review sites)-- and it seems that the majority of reviewers are giving them good marks... yes, there are some dissenters...but maybe most people are not bothered by their disgusting food? Lord knows I am....

BTW, this thread has been very cathartic for me, as I've been quietly harboring a strong feeling of "What the heck is Grape Leaves' deal?" for some time now....

P.S. My husband suggested to me that if anyone is interested, we could have a "Grape Leaves Doubters' Dinner," go there, order a variety of dishes, take photos, etc. and give it one more comprehensive (and perhaps final?) evaluation.... Personally, I'm not sure it's worth the pain of another sumac and water chestnut onslaught....

rehorn wrote:Interestingly, if you google "Grape Leaves Oak Park," you'll see a couple different sets of reviews (e.g., Yelp, as well as 60 "google" reviews that may have been picked up from other review sites)-- and it seems that the majority of reviewers are giving them good marks... yes, there are some dissenters...but maybe most people are not bothered by their disgusting food? Lord knows I am....

BTW, this thread has been very cathartic for me, as I've been quietly harboring a strong feeling of "What the heck is Grape Leaves' deal?" for some time now....

P.S. My husband suggested to me that if anyone is interested, we could have a "Grape Leaves Doubters Dinner," go there, order a variety of dishes, take photos, etc. and give it one more comprehensive (and perhaps final?) evaluation.... Personally, I'm not sure it's worth the pain of another sumac and water chestnut onslaught....

In my capacity as Dining blogger on Oakpark.com, I'm posting a version of my "take" on Grape Leaves today. It will be be interesting to see if citizens of the People's Republic of Oak Park jump to the defense of this place (and I'm guessing there are some supporters) or concur that it's on a steep decline.

Is Jerusalem Cafe still open? Is GL worse than Jerusalem Cafe now?
My wife and I LOVE Mid Eastern Food. We have lived pretty close to Grape Leaves for almost 10 years now. We've been there twice. Normal protocol for Middle Eastern food for us is for me to go to Pita Inn when I'm at work, stick it in the fridge, schlep it home and re-heat. Grape Leaves doesn't compete with leftover Pita Inn, imo, but since there is no other option in the area - except for Jerusalem Cafe, I'm sure they are doing decent business.

As for Sumac, the last Grape Leaves order had a chicken sandwich of some sort on a pita. The chicken was crusted in sumac, and it tasted like those horrible candied fruits in fruitcake to me. It's probably just me, but I am not a fan of sumac at all.

We used to be regulars at Grape Leaves, but after two visits where I got very alternately grisly and fatty shawerma sandwiches I put my foot down. We now frequent Jerusalem Cafe about once a month but I don't think the food there is as good as Grape Leaves' was about 5 years ago. I particularly am not fond of their hummus, which is very smooth and bland. However, the combo platter is a lot of food at a good value.