Ballo digression

Antonius - One thing that's indisputable here is your individual sensitivity, and I, for one, respect that. While this may take us on a bit of tangent, I happen to think it's interesting, and it will be even more interesting to see if it generates other posts on the topic.

I don't know anything about Pat Bruno, but it's certainly possible, if not likely, that he's Italian-American. No question the owners of Ballo are Italian-Americans, as are the pizza chef and at least several of the staff. I'd be shocked to learn that there aren't a lot of Italian-Americans patronizing and enjoying the restaurant, given the high quality and authenticity of the food (though I can't imagine there's a way to quantify that).

Your post was very well written, and obviously came from the heart. I'm not of Italian heritage, and your post caused me to reflect long and hard on whether or not I should be agreeing, or even boycotting the restaurant. I could never be comfortable thinking that something I did caused pain and/or anger in anyone. I don't even cross picket lines.

Some questions I have - is it the production and enormous popularity of the movies and TV shows in question that offend you? Is it their juxtaposition to Italian food in an Italian restaurant that offends you? Do you assume that most people seeing those movies believe that all Italian-Americans are somehow tainted or diminished because of their production?

Again, sensitivities are indisputable. But because it has never even occurred to me that my enjoyment in the past of movies, TV and books on the subject of organized crime (which, of course, has never been exclusive to Italians or Italian-Americans) has reflected negatively on an entire nationality, I'm having a difficult time trying to put myself in your shoes.

I'm comfortable, at least for now, saying that I respect your thoughts, and obviously your right to boycott any business for whatever reason you choose. I sure hope I'm not being insensitive, but at this juncture I'm comfortable in believing that I'm a caring and sensitive person, and that I can still enjoy Ballo free from guilt.

I'm with Antonius, generally. It really is unfortunate and somewhat anomalous that the popular perception of Italian-American culture revolves around stereotypes tying food to organized crime. Certainly, some of America's great Italian American artists and authors are to blame for making a franchise of the stereotype.

As a society, we are very comfortable with the imagery. But consider some hypothetical examples to see how the imagery would look if another ethnic group's crime syndicate were glorified by a restaurant and linked to a culinary tradition. Would we say "it works" if a Mexican or Puerto Rican restaurant held to a Latin Kings theme, decorating the walls with explicit gang symbols and celebrating the murderous exploits of one of the world's biggest criminal organizations?* How about a soul food restaurant in Hyde Park with a Gangster Disciples theme. Would you be comfortable eating fried chicken and greens there?

Beyond the Sopranos/Goodfellas/Godfather images, the stereotype is complicated by certain historical and sociological truths. Sicily and Southern Italy have had rather complex histories of lawlessness since the time of the Moorish occupation (of course, Southern Spain, Corsica and the Riviera too, but those folks didn't immigrate here much). Omerta and vendetta were/are real concepts that some say were developed among the subjugated as a form of civil disobedience and resistance. The mafia, Camorra and Ndrangheta exist. Among a fair number of Italians there is a certain misguided affection for this stuff and among the stupid and the insecure a feeling of empowerment in the suggestion that they might have access to the favors of a secret society of violence.

For a big part of the 20th century, Italian-American organized crime was big news particularly associated with Chicago and New York. The Robin Hood style PR of criminal noblesse oblige and gaudy, audacious, nose-thumbing acts made these guys media superstars. Thank God for Michael Jordan. Before him the universal response to "Chicago" was "Al Capone." I mean, really, I got MJ/Al Capone from folks who had never seen an American, let alone someone from Chicago.

Historical distance makes us more comfortable with the mafia imagery. But it's no excuse. We are temporally far from the horrors of fascism and slavery, but I don't think anyone would excuse the romanticization of those equally real historical concepts.

I guess I would say, many folks come by their prejudices and ignorance honestly. That doesn't mean one shouldn't do better when one knows better.

*Admittedly, there is a cultural phenomenon within Mexican society that glorifies and romanticizes lawlessness, the pistolero and the narcotraficante through modern-day troubadours' narcocorridos, among other artistic forms. This I would say is a phenomenon that closely resembles the romanticizing of Mafiosi.

JeffB - I'd thought exactly about those types of comparisons before making my response to Antonius. Where your analogy fails, I think, is in the suggestion that the popular organized crime movies, such as those shown at Ballo, somehow glorify the criminals depicted. They don't, of course. They show the bad guys as just that, bad guys. I refuse to believe that any thinking person associates the Italian bad guys in those movies as typical of Italians. They are interesting movies to watch, whether in the theaters, home, or at a restaurant.

To carry your analogy further, I'd be totally comfortable in a Mexican restaurant that showed well-crafted movies about Mexican bad guys, where it was clear the bad guys weren't being glorified, but were rather depicted for what they were, and not representative of all Mexicans or Mexican-Americans. My response would be the same as to soul food restaurants that chose to show gang movies that clearly showed the bad guys for what they were.

Where your post is wrongly provocative, I think, is in suggesting that the organized crime movies being discussed somehow "glorify" the mobsters. They don't. Anyone who watches those movies and roots for the mobsters ought to have their medication adjusted. They are simply well-made movies that many people enjoy. I suppose they could be showing Star Wars or Spiderman movies, but somehow I don't think that would work.

I think that this discussion is not altogether appropriate, particularly as it begins to touch on other negative stereotypes which should not be casually mentioned in passing.

Antonius is completely welcome to react negatively to the depictions mentioned and the establishment that presents them. But a discussion of their sources, and particularly comparison of them to other stereotypes which quite possibly will offend others is not really a proper subject for LTHForum. Let each person make their own decision about whether they wish to frequent such a place, now that they have the information. Let's not argue about whose decision is right, because that is unlikely to end well.

We all have opinions about stereotypes that apply to others, and likely strong feelings about stereotypes that have been applied to us personally. Let's not start bandying those about, and offending more people.

This is my opinion, and not that of the moderators.

The juxtaposition is annoying - whatever the stereotype is. How is it related to the food? If the movies are for ambiance, then I assume (I'm forced to) that the food is geared towards people who associate the two. Thus furthering the stereotype. Marketing I suppose, but I can't help thinking the target then is someone who would want a side of pasta with their risotto when dining eyetalian.

Given that it's 2005, it's annoying (and I'm thousands of miles from being Italian).

Dicksond, I disagree somewhat. I thought the point being made was that while stereotypes may have some basis they should not be associated with the food. This association becomes more offensive than the stereotype itself, directly diminishing the chances of furthering the cuisine.

It was not especially my desire to initiate here a lengthy discussion of the broader issue of the negative stereotypes of Italians that are commonly propagated in this country nor of the general issue of ethnically-based prejudices, but so long as the discussion remains respectful and decorous, I think it worthwhile, insofar as this issue arises with some regularity.

This forum is for the discussion of food-related matters and more immediately of restaurants. Though my response to the original post in this thread may have seemed to some degree off-topic, it was in fact ultimately concerned directly with the way in which I and others who share my convictions would react to finding videos of mob-movies played in an Italian restaurant: Some people would find that juxtaposition inappropriate and offensive and they should not go to the restaurant in question. I think others less concerned with the matter of prejudice against Italians in this country might also be offended but then by having displayed about them repeated scenes of murder as they eat. Ballo should turn off the videos.

***

In response to marydon2’s second post, let me say the following.

Your two main points are precisely the same two that are always made by those who, one way or another, wish to argue that Italians who complain of what I referred to as “the continually invoked association of Italians and Italian culture with criminality” should not really do so.

The first of these points is that some Italians themselves engage in the propagation of the negative stereotype. I had anticipated this argument, though apparently to no avail:
“That some Italians themselves engage in the perpetuation of this detrimental association does not make it less offensive: clearly, the person or persons who thought up the silent-mob-movie gimmick expected a positive reaction to it from their general audience...”
Obviously, the management of the restaurant feels –– and sadly with good reason –– that by showing mob movies in their Italian restaurant, the experience of visiting their establishment will somehow be enhanced and those customers who are thus titillated will be more likely to return. It is a marketing strategy, as Sazerac notes above, and perhaps it is a profitable one, but it by no means follows that it is a morally decent one. That people are willing to degrade themselves for money is a commonplace of world history and that they might think of short-term personal profit in preference to some broader social good is, alas, a commonplace of modern American society.

The second argument is the invocation of the popularity of mob-movies and mob-shows and there comes with this point an implication that it would be madness to reject wholesale these productions; they are after all tremendously popular and often highly acclaimed and the making of many of them, again, involves crucially Italians, be it as directors or actors.

Well, in response to this point, I must begin by stating my absolute belief in and support for the first amendment to the constitution: people should be free to make movies about whatever they want. Furthermore, I will agree that certain of the better known mob-movies –– including some that have been, in a sense, particularly key in reinforcing the negative stereotypical connexion of Italians and Italian culture to criminality –– strike me as also being works of art and not just juvenile trash designed to cash in on the success of the Godfather etc. I don’t object to art and I emphatically denounce governmental censorship, but I would like to think that every intelligent and decent person would agree that it is right and proper that the endless stream of degrading portrayals of African-Americans in film and even in the early decades of television are now no longer deemed acceptable by the general American public. Necessary to counteract the ill effects of such ethnic propaganda was a reduction in the images that perpetuate negative stereotypes and concomitantly an increase in the production of works in which other, positive images are displayed. There have been and are Italians involved in organised crime and to portray them in serious works of cinematic art is as legitimate as portraying any other aspect of society, but to a strikingly exaggerated degree Italian-Americans are featured in cinema and television productions in rôles as mobsters. Anyone with an i.q. above room temperature should by now be weary of that.

The point here is not at all whether the Godfather is a great movie or whether mobsters in that and other such films are portrayed positively (a complex but completely irrelevant question here). The point is: In what way is an Italian meal enhanced by an atmosphere invoked by mob movies? I just don’t see it. As JeffB argued above, similar, wholly gratuitous invocations of other negative ethnic stereotypes in restaurants would most likely provoke a massive public outcry and it is high time that the gratuitous association of Italians with criminality to sell meatballs and pizza provoke similar public discontent, if not outrage.

I call for no boycott –– though hardly think it would be wrong for someone to do so –– but rather have taken time to call attention in a calm and measured manner to the need for people to object to the kind of prejudicial stereotyping in which Ballo engages by juxtaposing Italian cuisine with Italian criminality. I also do not wish to imply that anyone and everyone who goes to Ballo and enjoys a meal is doing something evil; I do believe many if not most Americans are unaware of the significance and deleterious effects of the mobster stereotype.

Finally, to get back to my real point, gimmicks such as that used by Ballo perpetuate a negative stereotype and thereby also prejudice, prejudice that my son unfortunately one day will meet, just as I have in my professional and private life. I will do whatever I can to fight against the perpetuation of the stereotype that gives rise to the prejudice.

Antonius

Marydon2 says: "Where your analogy fails, I think, is in the suggestion that the popular organized crime movies, such as those shown at Ballo, somehow glorify the criminals depicted. They don't, of course."

Well, of course, this is the nub of our disagreement. I'm not sure that stating "of course" the mobsters are not glorified in mobster movies has swayed me. Lets leave us Italians alone for a second. Consider the movie Scarface (the second one, with the Italian American playing a Cuban American in a remake of a movie about an Italian American). FYI, the movie is the shizzle among gangsters and gangster wannabes today. Tony is a hero, even though he is despicable and goes up in flames in the end.

Regarding this being an inapropriate digression, I can't disagree. Someone might should move it. And the point about the sterotype analogies making someone uncomfortable, well, that was my point.

Posters - this Forum is for the discussion of food and related topics. There are certain sensitive topics we shy away from because passions run high, and the arguments can take over the Board.

We recognize your right to hold whatever opinions you wish about the treatment of Italian-Americans in the popular media, and how appropriate it is to use such depictions in association with a restaurant. We also have allowed you to state those opinions, repeatedly now. It does not appear that anyone is convincing anyone else to change their opinion, and your respective positions are quite clear.

This discussion is complete. Gentle posters, please make your own private decisions as to whether you approve of the use of mobster movies at Ballo. Sazerac, JeffB, Antonius, and marydon2, please feel free to PM me if you have any issues with this. But let's all just stop discussing ethnic stereotypes in a Food Forum.

I apologize in advance if this seems heavy-handed; I just do not know of any other way to say or do it.

d
for the moderators