GAF wrote:It seems to me that if we are to consider Le Titi as a GNR, it cannot be on food alone. It needs to be as a "neighborhood restaurant" with estimable food. Remember Alinea is not a GNR, Trotters is not. Neither are Tru, Carlos, Naha, Avenues, Blackbird, and others that are more deserving in strict culinary terms that Le Titi - and this is said as someone who does enjoy Le Titi. If Le Titi is a GNR it is because of the service it provides within its neighborhood and to its neighbors. The high end dining places that are GNRs are restaurants in their social side - and perhaps their connection to this community - are evidently GNRs, places like Moto, Vie, the late Mado, or Avec. So I am not arguing against awarding Le Titi a GNR, but I am skeptical about awarding a GNR on the weight of their special dinners or culinary expertise alone.

I agree -- and that is precisely why, in my nomination, I pleaded that it not be judged on culinary expertise alone. The food is really good, but that's not what makes it a GNR, to my mind. It's all the other stuff -- the express lunches, the classes, the motorcycle outing, the farmers market meet-ups, the kids classes, the kids global summer camp, the welcoming attitude -- all the things that put the emphasis squarely on "neighborhood." Even with the wine dinners, as good as I think those are, the thing that makes them stand out to me is the combination of information, camaraderie (there are lots of regulars, and even the new folks will often chat between tables), and then, at least for the French wine dinners, the fun of the French bistro music, many singing along. Can you imagine folks singing along to "Au Champs Elysee" at Trotters?

So enjoy the food -- it's really good. But that's not what makes it a NEIGHBORHOOD restaurant.

jesteinf wrote:I took a cheese class once at Le Titi and had a great time. We were treated to a lovely lunch afterwards. That being said, if a GNR is supposed to resonate with the LTH community at large, then I just don't see how Le Titi clears that bar.

Can anything ever resonate with the entire community? I haven't even been to 95 percent of the GNRs, but among those I've visited, not every one has been a wow for me. Nice, but not my cup of tea -- especially if I have to drive 30 miles. (And a lot of my favorites, such as Alinea, are not, as noted above, GNRs.)

Of course, I realize this is not the first time the question of "what exactly do we mean by neighborhood restaurant" has arisen. I think Le TIti qualifies, but that's based on what I mean by great neighborhood restaurant -- a good restaurant that is a great neighbor or great addition to a neighborhood. So I do understand that I may not be judging this place within the parameters intended by those who started the GNR program. That's cool. Those who do the work get to make the rules. But within the bounds of my interpretation of the concept of great neighborhood restaurants, Le Titi qualifies. I leave it to those who know the rules better than I to decide of my interpretation is valid.

My issue is that there have only been 6 posts on this place in the year leading up to the nomination, and I don't think it's because it's one of those places "ingrained in our DNA" (i.e., no one really posts about Honey 1 anymore, but I doubt it's because no one is going). If I'm wrong so be it.

Cynthia, I should have said, "here's what happens when I stop paying attention to a conversation" ... can't believe how long it took me to notice the responses.

jesteinf wrote:My issue is that there have only been 6 posts on this place in the year leading up to the nomination, and I don't think it's because it's one of those places "ingrained in our DNA" (i.e., no one really posts about Honey 1 anymore, but I doubt it's because no one is going). If I'm wrong so be it.

Le Titi was "ingrained in my DNA" 25 years before LTHForum existed. So perhaps that is part of the problem.

jesteinf wrote:My issue is that there have only been 6 posts on this place in the year leading up to the nomination, and I don't think it's because it's one of those places "ingrained in our DNA" (i.e., no one really posts about Honey 1 anymore, but I doubt it's because no one is going). If I'm wrong so be it.

I guess it depends on the methodology of how we each post our experiences. For me, I tend to only post once about a place based on my first experience. After that, if I keep going to the place and the overall experience is about the same, I don't continue to post the same thing over and over. To me, that just makes a thread boring.

In addition, I don't think anyone would deny that the majority of LTH members are city residents or very close to it, so places that are 30 miles out are going to naturally get fewer posts on average than places in the city. So IMHO, a suburban GNR candidate needs to be evaluated with slightly different criteria than a city GNR candidate. It can't be based on volume of posts.

There are lots of great restaurants in and around Chicago that aren't GNRs (to Gary's point earlier) because there just isn't significant traction on LTH. Like I said, I like Le Titi the one time I went and I have no doubt that those who live nearby love it, but that's not enough to make it a GNR (IMO). If I saw more frequent posts about it, or if there were planned events there...just something to show a little more community affection.

At this point I'll leave it to the committee to decide.

jesteinf wrote:There are lots of great restaurants in and around Chicago that aren't GNRs (to Gary's point earlier) because there just isn't significant traction on LTH. Like I said, I like Le Titi the one time I went and I have no doubt that those who live nearby love it, but that's not enough to make it a GNR (IMO). If I saw more frequent posts about it, or if there were planned events there...just something to show a little more community affection.

At this point I'll leave it to the committee to decide.

As I've noted a number of times, those who do the work get to make the rules. So yes, of course we leave it to the committee.

But as an aside: A discussion that has arisen a number of times over the years is whether by GNR we mean a restaurant that is great for the neighborhood, as I'm suggesting, or great for the LTH universe, as you suggest. There are a number of GNRs that get lots of attention largely because they are the best option in a location that is good for the large numbers of LTHers who live in the city, but for which I would never consider driving long distances. And there have been a few GNRs where I have driven long distances and decided I'd really only eat at the place regularly if it were within a block of my home. Too bad there isn't some code that can clarify whether a place is good for locals or a real destination restaurant. But I think that would make this even more complicated than it is already.

So it's a thorny issue, and has been since inception. I trust but do not envy those who have to make the final decision.

This is an interesting (re)nomination. During the last round of new GNR's, Le Titi was nominated but didn't make the cut because there wasn't much of a track record of positive posts here on LTH Forum. I attended a LTH dinner at the restaurant during the last round of nominations and, to put it kindly, the food and service was nothing to write home about. To quote Mike G after the last round of nominations:

One thing I hope will happen, now that we have our first-ever second-time nominee in Kuma's, is that some of the places that don't make it will continue to get written about, and come up again in a year or two or three. It doesn't have to be an outright rejection of the place-- just the recognition that the requisite level of support and history is still being built up. So keep us informed of what's happening there, of what you ate there, and maybe float another dinner six or eight months down the line.

In the ensuing year and a half, there still haven't been many posts about this place or a groundswell of LTH love. Speaking personally and not as a GNR committee member, I don't see how this place could be considered a GNR. Sure, it's a place that those who live in the area are probably happy to have, but that isn't what bieng a GNR is about.

stevez wrote: Speaking personally and not as a GNR committee member, I don't see how this place could be considered a GNR. Sure, it's a place that those who live in the area are probably happy to have, but that isn't what bieng a GNR is about.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but your comment just confuses the heck out of me. How can a restaurant that people in the area are happy to have not be a GNR? Remember, GNR stands for Great Neighborhood Restaurant. So 'splain it to me Lucy.

John Danza wrote:

stevez wrote: Speaking personally and not as a GNR committee member, I don't see how this place could be considered a GNR. Sure, it's a place that those who live in the area are probably happy to have, but that isn't what bieng a GNR is about.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but your comment just confuses the heck out of me. How can a restaurant that people in the area are happy to have not be a GNR? Remember, GNR stands for Great Neighborhood Restaurant. So 'splain it to me Lucy.

Yeah ... what he said.

The Great Neighborhood Restaurant Program is designed to recognize Chicagoland restaurants that the LTHForum community considers “great”

I'm sure people in my neighborhood absolutely LOVE Dunlay's...doesn't make it a GNR.

Katie wrote:

John Danza wrote:

stevez wrote: Speaking personally and not as a GNR committee member, I don't see how this place could be considered a GNR. Sure, it's a place that those who live in the area are probably happy to have, but that isn't what bieng a GNR is about.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but your comment just confuses the heck out of me. How can a restaurant that people in the area are happy to have not be a GNR? Remember, GNR stands for Great Neighborhood Restaurant. So 'splain it to me Lucy.

Yeah ... what he said.

A GNR is a place that resonates with the members of this community. The LTH Neighborhood, if you will. I just don't see that kind of support for this restaurant. If the unnamed "people in the area" who are happy to have this restaurant were all LTH posters and spoke glowingly about the restaurant in decent numbers, then it would be a different story.

John Danza wrote:

stevez wrote: Speaking personally and not as a GNR committee member, I don't see how this place could be considered a GNR. Sure, it's a place that those who live in the area are probably happy to have, but that isn't what bieng a GNR is about.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but your comment just confuses the heck out of me. How can a restaurant that people in the area are happy to have not be a GNR? Remember, GNR stands for Great Neighborhood Restaurant. So 'splain it to me Lucy.

I personally think that it's been explained over and over. An important part of being considered a GNR is a track record of favorable discussion here at LTH. In the case of LTdP, there's been very little discussion and what little there's been has been mixed at best. Even supporters of the GNR nomination have neglected to post about their experiences at the restaurant. We are a discussion site and the GNRs are a reflection of what we discuss here. So, if there's little or no discussion about a place, the barrier to becoming a GNR is greater.

=R=

Steve, Ronnie, thank you for the clarifications. The definition of an LTH GNR is now finally clear to me. But I can also see how the confusion continues to arise. One could argue that the word "Neighborhood" should never have been in the title, as, according to the definition, they are really "Great Restaurants" as perceived by the LTH Community, and "neighborhood" really has nothing to do with it. Alas, that boat sailed through the lock long ago.

And now, please, back to our regularly scheduled discussion of Le Titi de Paris.

Thanks,

=R=
for the GNRs

It seems pointless now, doesn't it? At least as far as its GNR nomination goes.

Katie wrote:It seems pointless now, doesn't it? At least as far as its GNR nomination goes.

Discussion (and eating) continues until March 7. Other people have organized dinners at places they've nominated. Some members have been known to drive around eating at nominated restaurants.

So, is anyone interested in joining me for the Burgundy dinner next Friday at Le Titi?

If not, I guess I'll just admit defeat, as I don't think the suburbs have the numbers to make this work for a place this far from the city.

Cynthia wrote: as I don't think the suburbs have the numbers to make this work for a place this far from the city.

this has nothing to do with suburbs vs city location. its about the food.

there are a few places that are GNR's that are further than Le Titi. Stop 50, and Cajun Connection are alot further out than Arlington Heights.

HI,

I've been thinking about this nomination. It's too bad people who are regulars simply don't jot down a few notes of their meals every time they go. What was good, what was exceptional and occasionally something they might not order again. Build an interest by viewing it through your eyes.

Part of the issue is fashion and trends in food. People chase snout to tail dinners, hang out at ethnic dives or follow the latest and greatest chef (wherever he may be working at the moment). French food is the old reliable to the extent it feels like a visit to Grandma. You know what you are getting, it is predictable and does not excite. It needs a moment of rediscovery, because maybe your knowledge of what you think you are getting is stuck in amber, too. Conventional wisdom ruling over actual experience, after a while people parroting someone else's opinion based on nothing whatsoever related to a genuine visit.

A few months ago, I gave a talk on Midwestern food to an industry audience at Le Titi de Paris. Many were trying to remember when they were there last: it was often 10-15 years or greater. As the dinner progressed, people began to comment they really needed to return much sooner than later. The service was very thoughtful. The format for a speaker was unique, you were asked to talk between courses, eat then resume talking. The waiters held my plate until I really could eat it. I appreciated this because I don't want to eat my dinner cold, either. After dinner, they put out a plate of cookies and homemade jelly candies. I have been thinking about those jelly candies ever since.

jpschust used to be a regular poster on LTH. He was a transplant from Washington, D.C. who has since moved out of the area. He always struck me as very knowledgable and fussy, largely because he knew how food and cocktails should be. My own amber-thoughts began to melt about Le Titi de Paris when I read his report of a visit last fall.

jpshcust's dinner at Le Titi de Paris wrote:All in all the food at Le Titi de Paris is killer, and it's worth a trip for the service alone, but one very general comment- their portion sizes are WAY too big. It's really impossible to order a la carte and to eat a reasonably sized dinner. I could have had a salad and an appetizer and that might have even been too much food for me (and I can pack it away when I'm hungry, which I was). Also, just a hint to others going there- don't bother ordering the CA wines- most are really overpriced (Clayhouse Adobo Red for $46? Seriously?) but there are tons of bargains to be had on the French list.

I have always wanted to visit Le Titi de Paris for their express lunch. I put a notice on the board, if anyone else may want to join: Lunch on Friday, March 4th at 11:30 am. I plan to order the express lunch, though you're free to order a la cart.

Regards,

Cathy2 wrote:
I have always wanted to visit Le Titi de Paris for their express lunch. I put a notice on the board, if anyone else may want to join: Lunch on Friday, March 4th at 11:30 am. I plan to order the express lunch, though you're free to order a la cart.

Regards,

Bummer. It's the only Friday for the last two months that I'm busy. Otherwise, I'd join you in a heartbeat. Hope you get other takers -- and hope you enjoy your lunch.

As for the very thoughtful and insightful notes about expectations, pursuits, and French food being comfort food to hardcore foodies, I think your observations are very accurate -- but I can't say that I ever tire of French food. Of course, even French food has opened up a lot, with international influences. But I won't ever weary of good French food, haute or provincial. Or perhaps it's because I've traveled so much that I don't make too much of a distinction between ethnic cuisines, whether French or Uzbekistani. If it's good, it's good. Of course, as I've noted, it is a deep affection that goes beyond the food that also draws me to Le Titi. Regardless of what they serve, they are essentially a Mom and Pop place -- they just happen to serve an ethnic food that has been in Chicago a bit longer than, say, Laotian.

As for posting what I like and would order again -- my "regular" for the express lunch is the velouté of wild mushroom and thyme (though I have occasionally had the lobster bisque, instead), followed by the seared balsamic tenderloin. I have made my way through most of the items on offer, but this is my perfect "comfort meal."

My wife and I had a great lunch today at Le Titi. We were there with her sister and her sister's husband. While the express lunch menu looked great and a great value, three of us ended up ordering off of the ala carte menu.

For starters, Jan and her sister each had the lobster and peeky toe crab gallete, which theyt both loved. I had the house smoked salmon, which was very good. My brother-in-law had the special soup, an asparagus soup, which he really liked.

For our mains, Jan had their grilled salmon, which was excellent. Her sister had the dover soul and I can attest that it tasted great. My main course was a special, a slow braised lamb shank, which had a good flavor but was salty. Charlie had the beef ternderloin off of the prix fixe menu and really liked it.

The conclusion is that this is a great place with some very flavorful dishes. We'll definitely be doing more Saturday lunches here.

LAZ wrote:

Cynthia wrote:It is not Le Francais or Carlos, but it places a solid, respectable second to these icons -- and at a price point I can enjoy far more often....

I value Le Titi for its accessibility. It's friendly, easy-going....

Yes, I agree.

One of my favorite comments about this place came from a visiting friend a few years back. She and her husband are jet-setting types who have eaten at four-star restaurants around the world and think nothing of spending hundreds of dollars on dinner, or, for that matter, flying to another city just in order to spend hundreds of dollars on dinner.

Anyway, they were in town for a meeting in the 'burbs and I suggested Le Titi. We had a lovely meal, which they both enjoyed.

So we were in the ladies' room afterwards, drying our hands at the sink and she says, "Just think, for another $20 a plate, we could've had cloth towels."

On another occasion, Le Titi was completely unfazed when we went there accompanied by some young people in full punk regalia, complete with leather, chains, multiple piercings, brightly colored spiked hair, et al. I admit I was somewhat nervous about going to a suburban French restaurant with folks in such attire, but the staff treated them just as if they'd been dressed in suits and ties. (Rather, I fear, to our companions' disappointment -- since what's the point of dressing like that if it doesn't garner attention?)

I don't know but the cloth towel comment seems to me to be just plain snobbishness. For me personally I'd restaurants to expend their resources in this order: 1. The food - quality of ingredients and training in proper handling and presentation. 2. Service - just be attentive and quick. 3. The decor, cloth towels, luxury embellishments.

As for your punk rockers, I respect places that are like that. My friend and I were in the dB Bistro Moderne for lunch in NYC dressed casually amongst business suited business types and we were treated exactly as everyone else. Excellent service for what is a mid-priced bistro. I wish mid-priced places here would emulate that kind of service, so much for the reputation of being rude that New Yorkers get. I've gotten more attitude in hoity-toity places in Chicago frankly.

Cathy2 wrote:jpschust used to be a regular poster on LTH. He was a transplant from Washington, D.C. who has since moved out of the area. He always struck me as very knowledgable and fussy, largely because he knew how food and cocktails should be. My own amber-thoughts began to melt about Le Titi de Paris when I read his report of a visit last fall.

jpshcust's dinner at Le Titi de Paris wrote:All in all the food at Le Titi de Paris is killer, and it's worth a trip for the service alone, but one very general comment- their portion sizes are WAY too big. It's really impossible to order a la carte and to eat a reasonably sized dinner. I could have had a salad and an appetizer and that might have even been too much food for me (and I can pack it away when I'm hungry, which I was). Also, just a hint to others going there- don't bother ordering the CA wines- most are really overpriced (Clayhouse Adobo Red for $46? Seriously?) but there are tons of bargains to be had on the French list.

I'm sure you are far more well versed on midwestern food trends than I am. I haven't eaten at Le Titi de Paris yet, but I think as a generality portions are massive in Chicago and midwest in general. I believe it is the expectation of diners here who often complain on sites like Yelp if they feel the portions are smaller than what they expected. I'm loath to say as much, but I fear that many people's dining out expectations have been crafted by childhood meals at chain restaurants or other restaurants with massive portions enough to take food home and eat the next day. I suppose that being close to university full of frugal students doesn't help matters here either. The restaurant business seems to be a tough one here where quality isn't valued as much as quantity and especially in these tough economic times I'd imagine it is hard to keep a restaurant business running while alienating people who have expectations of value that come with large portions. Also it is quite inexpensive to project value by offering large portions given that food cost is around 25-30% of food revenue. It is the easiest way to project value. I suppose Le Titi being an upper-mid end restaurant cannot afford to alienate occasional diners who are not acquainted with portion sizes typical of higher end restaurants. I may be wrong, but its just my impression seeing how much food I typically get served here.

sr1329 wrote:
I'm sure you are far more well versed on midwestern food trends than I am. I haven't eaten at Le Titi de Paris yet, but I think as a generality portions are massive in Chicago and midwest in general. I believe it is the expectation of diners here who often complain on sites like Yelp if they feel the portions are smaller than what they expected. I'm loath to say as much, but I fear that many people's dining out expectations have been crafted by childhood meals at chain restaurants or other restaurants with massive portions enough to take food home and eat the next day. I suppose that being close to university full of frugal students doesn't help matters here either. The restaurant business seems to be a tough one here where quality isn't valued as much as quantity and especially in these tough economic times I'd imagine it is hard to keep a restaurant business running while alienating people who have expectations of value that come with large portions. Also it is quite inexpensive to project value by offering large portions given that food cost is around 25-30% of food revenue. It is the easiest way to project value. I suppose Le Titi being an upper-mid end restaurant cannot afford to alienate occasional diners who are not acquainted with portion sizes typical of higher end restaurants. I may be wrong, but its just my impression seeing how much food I typically get served here.

Le Titi's portion sizes are in no way comparable to the massive portions from chain restaurants. They are simply too large to have many courses. If you just have an appetizer and a main, then let the mignardises be your dessert, they're not unreasonable. (And some things aren't readily sub-divided. For example, if you get Dover sole, you get the whole fillet.) However, if I want something lighter, I often have two appetizers and a salad. If you get a tasting menu, such as for their six-course wine dinners, portions are considerably reduced. But Le Titi, while being fairly high-end, is kind of a family place, and a lot of people just want a salad, a couple of nice lamb chops or a sole muniere, and a cup of coffee, not a 12-course dinner, and the portions reflect that tendency -- except, as noted, the wine dinners and other special tasting-menu events.

As for jpshcust's comment about the wine list -- the long-time sommelier is French, raised in Paris, and hosts the regional French dinners, so I suspect it is not an accident that the wine list is set up to move the French wines. Otherwise, I agree with his comments -- good food, lovely service, but don't try to have four or five courses.

Cynthia,

I would never suggest that a higher-end restaurant would serve portions like a chain restaurant would. That would just be silly.

However, I would like to point out that chain restaurants are mostly family dining spots and as we were growing up we were eating such family dining spots with bigger portions and an order of a salad + main course was appropriate. People are used to that sort of ordering pattern, which is slowly changing as people get more exposure.

The fact that Le Titi, is both a higher-end French Restaurant and a family style restaurant perhaps leads to the identity crisis that jpshcust alludes to. The restaurant would love to serve to a clientele that would order 4-6 course meals or perhaps the 6 course tasting menu, but the expectations of people tend to revolve around the salad + main course paradigm. This is what they are used to, and if changed would cause the loss of a valuable customer base. Most would think the change was done solely for material gain and not consider that in reality it would be a better dining experience and more in line with what is done at finer French restaurants. It restrains the efforts of an otherwise brilliant chef.

The restaurant would be better in absolute terms if it changed the menu to smaller portions that allow the diner to order 3-6 courses, but it would alienate an important group of diners. The restaurant may no longer be financially feasible.

So I firmly believe that a restaurant is limited greatly by the ingrained expectations of the population in which it operates. I feel that this is what limits a lot restaurants in certain geographical regions.

sr1329 wrote:
I would never suggest that a higher-end restaurant would serve portions like a chain restaurant would. That would just be silly.

However, I would like to point out that chain restaurants are mostly family dining spots and as we were growing up we were eating such family dining spots with bigger portions and an order of a salad + main course was appropriate. People are used to that sort of ordering pattern, which is slowly changing as people get more exposure.

The fact that Le Titi, is both a higher-end French Restaurant and a family style restaurant perhaps leads to the identity crisis that jpshcust alludes to. The restaurant would love to serve to a clientele that would order 4-6 course meals or perhaps the 6 course tasting menu, but the expectations of people tend to revolve around the salad + main course paradigm. This is what they are used to, and if changed would cause the loss of a valuable customer base. Most would think the change was done solely for material gain and not consider that in reality it would be a better dining experience and more in line with what is done at finer French restaurants. It restrains the efforts of an otherwise brilliant chef.

The restaurant would be better in absolute terms if it changed the menu to smaller portions that allow the diner to order 3-6 courses, but it would alienate an important group of diners. The restaurant may no longer be financially feasible.

So I firmly believe that a restaurant is limited greatly by the ingrained expectations of the population in which it operates. I feel that this is what limits a lot restaurants in certain geographical regions.

Actually, everyone is limited to a certain extent by the expectations of the population in which they operate. So what you say is correct, but it's not limited to restaurants. No artist pays the rent unless he or she finds a market. Or, as Michelangelo phrased it, "You're a genius if you can sell it."

I think the comment about Le Titi's portion size is completely wrong. It is true that they serve more food in a course than places like Alinea or Trotter, where there's 70% "white space" on the plate. However, that's not the kind of restaurant that Le Titi is. I think their portions are comparable to what one finds in Paris bistros.

John Danza wrote:I think the comment about Le Titi's portion size is completely wrong. It is true that they serve more food in a course than places like Alinea or Trotter, where there's 70% "white space" on the plate. However, that's not the kind of restaurant that Le Titi is. I think their portions are comparable to what one finds in Paris bistros.

I would agree with that. I ate very well last time I was in Paris. I don't remember any skimpy portions -- and I'd say that, on the whole. Le Titi's serving sizes are not much different from serving sizes there.

It also occurred to me last night that Le Français had substantial portions, and the chef there (Jean Banchet) was the protege of Paul Bocuse, so not big Midwest influence in operation.

I wonder if the issue is related to the fact that most of us get much less physical exercise these days, so don't have quite the capacity they once had.

Who knows. I do know that I don't have a problem with the portion sizes at Le Titi -- or at those bistros in Paris -- but I don't mind asking for a doggie bag when I have over-ordered.