kitchen remodel -- tell me what to do

I've gotten more and more into cooking in the last year or so and with every day that goes by and meal or thing I prepare, I lament at how crappy my kitchen is -- the refrigerator is too small and in the wrong place, there's very little cabinet space, the stove stinks, the countertops are worn and ugly. About the only thing that I don't mind is my dishwasher, which is still on the small side but OK for 1 person. The horrors, the horrors.

So, I'm considering redoing my kitchen and was hoping the know-it-alls here could help. Here's what I'm faced with.

Dimensions: 14.5'x9.5'
Countertop space: 8 linear feet (< 5 actually usable)











As for budget, I suppose $8-$10k would be about right (though I could be totally off base). What I usually do with major purchases (car, TV, home theater, furniture, etc...) is buy mid-range, but nice, stuff. Not necessarily top of the line, but better than average. What I've seen at Abtelectronics.com and other places leads me to believe that this means:

gas range: ~$1500-$1750 (grill section would be great)
fridge: ~$1500-$1750 (which design works best for tight spaces ? pull out freezer ?)
dishwasher: ~$500-$750 (could go cheaper)
sink/faucet: ~$500-$750
cabinets: no idea (probably maple or other natural)
countertops: ~$150/lin. ft (granite or other natural)

So, if anyone can help me with suggestions -- brands, stores, designers, do's, don'ts, etc ... I'd appreciate it. It's either this or I'm gonna get really antsy and move altogether

thanks !

Well, what would expand your counter space substantially (though doubtful within that budget; home improvements don't just cost more than you think, they cost more than you dread) would be an island. You could put a bar on the other side of it, for casual dining, assuming you have a dining room elsewhere. I mean, a sink is a sink and a stove is a stove, you're just not going to magically create a bunch more countertop in the area they occupy and they are not, presumably, going away. An island would get you the kind of workspace you could roll out dough in, say, which would be a substantial improvement.

ok .. graphics should be fixed. an island would be great, even though I don't think I've ever eaten a meal at that table. Rolling dough is definitely a problem right now !

This is going to be very little consolation at best, but I'd love to have a kitchen that huge.

Hi

see if you can do a drawing from above of what you have and can not change (well, without major expense) and what you can move. For example, I think you want the sink and load bearing walls to stay where they are, but could move the fridge.

Think about work flow - how do you move now, what is inconvenient, what is good. Do you often fill pots with water and carry them to the stove? Do you roll out dough and fill pies, then put them into the oven?

I understand that a triangle between fridge, stove, and sink is supposed to be ideal, especially if you can move between them in just a few steps (don't quote me on this).

Go to your library (or Amazon.com) and take out books on designing kitchens. Focus on the layout, the details of color and brand and whatnot will follow. The kitchen I loved to work in the most was a galley kitchen, long and narrow with stove and sink across from each other. I hate having my dishwasher to the left of my sink, I want it on the right.



edited to add:
ps - get the taller cabinets that go all the way to the ceiling. You have a boatload of wasted space up there.

I think you're getting good advice, but I would underscore Mike G's warning on budget: I've built 3 kitchens and the best I ever did against budget (the most recent one) was 120%. Plan on 200% if this is your first.

Couple questions: Do you have under floor access to move drains and water; and where's that new La Cornue Grand Palais 180 going to vent?

Observations: Really try for an island and consider putting the sink (one, not two, and make it a deep one) in it, across from the stove. Forget the grill because you really will need 4 (or more) burners if you get serious about cooking. Get electric, self-cleaning oven(s) unless you're planning to go crazy with bread. A dishwasher costs the same as a cabinet and you can store dishes in it, too: get two. Tall cabinets are nice (I have them), but unless you're 6'8" you'll use them via a step ladder and then only rarely (so you'll still need to think about where you're going to store the Cuisinart and the 50 lb bag of 00 flour). If you put any kind of BTUs in your kitchen, you'll get lots of smoke, so think about a good exhaust hood with a short run to the outside with a minimun of turns. They'll tell you that 175-250 ft^3/minute is fine, but it isn't. 300CFM min, with 600 as your real target for up to 6 burners. An internal vent doesn't. More electrical outlets, not fewer, and at the right height. Also, phone jacks, cable outlet, ethernet...you'll want to stay in touch with your new IP enabled refrigerator.

Speaking of sinks, I'll tell you, one of the happiest choices I ever made was getting rid of the standard two part sink and instead having one large deep one (big enough to bathe a baby in, which we did) and one very small one (the garbage disposal is on this side, to the baby's relief). Much more useful for soaking large pots etc.

Yup, I put the biggest stainless tub that Kindred makes in my current kitchen and it still doesn't hold as much as I'd like. One downside of the big sink is that the big iron pot you dump into it tends to chip the edges of the granite. Does any one have any experience with cement or space-age materials countertops (something other than natural stone, that is)?

When we redid our kitchen we thought we were just replacing what we had. When we went to the cabinet store, however, they were very helpful in drawing different configurations. They suggested one small change (moving the oven) that made a big difference. I suggest, therefore, going to places that design cabinets and having them look at the space.

Jonah

For general advice, especially on a budget, I would look at Consumer Reports, which does a kitchen remodelling issue every year, I believe. They will tell you that lower-priced cabinets, for instance, often out perform the high-end stuff -- so they rate IKEA cabinets, which are pretty cheap but nice-looking and evidently well-constucted, very highly. You can get lay-out advice at IKEA, though I haven't been through that experience; I would make an appointment, if that's possible, as it's often difficult to get help there when it's busy. You can also get good comparative advice about different counter top materials and etc. from Consumer Reports, and of course the usual ratings of appliances. We redid our kitchen two years ago, and I would join those voting for one big sink as opposed to the standard double sink -- big pots and all the rest of the dishes can now fit into the sink, instead of having to sit on the counter. ABT, now in Glenview, I think, has all the appliances you could ever want to look at under one roof and pretty good sales help too; you'll get more knowledgable help there then you would at a Best Buy, and they'll match any prices you'd find elsewhere. Some thoughts from your pictures: if you moved the fridge to where you have the shelving (between the doors) you'd have alot more room for counters. Maybe you could countine your counters underneath the windows (dropping down in some artful fashion) so you'd have built-in eating space there. Also, our architect put in very narrow cabinets in the hallway leading into our kitchen, and I see you have similar space. The cabinets are just about the depth of two cans -- which leaves plenty of space in the hall to pass through, and is very efficient storage -- nothing can get lost in the cabinents. Do you have pantry space behind the other door? If not, such additional storage might be really helpful.

Having just survived a remodeling, I agree with most of what's been said. A few more points
1. Yes, cabinets that go to the ceiling are hard to reach, but it's still great to have a place for some of the bigger but less-often used pots, as well as for things like extra rolls of paper towels. Forget the step ladder though. I love my EZ Grabber. It makes it possible to even put the breakfast cereal up high.

2. I also like my cabinet above my refrigerator (and I like my armoire style fridge a lot--mine's a Kenmore but Consumer Reports gave high marks to others as well). It has slots that hold my cookie sheet, griddle, etc.

3. Find a wall not otherwise used where you can hang a steel grid.

4. Watch out for high powered "professional" appliances, etc. CR generally does not rate them highly and based on the figures you're giving, you can't afford them. In particular, though you should get a good fan that exhausts to the outside, my research convinced me NOT to get a professional fan. I love my KitchenAid slide-out range hood.

You can see the photos of our much more extensive (you hope!) job [url=http://debacle.org/gallery/Kitchen-Remodeling] here
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A follow-up: the House&Home section of today's New York Times features a story about a woman who built a house in the Hamptons for the bargain price of $228,000. The home features a hip-looking kitchen with cabinets from -- guess where -- IKEA. There are some interesting ideas in the article about inexpensive building options in general. In another column in the same section, there's also information about an new countertop option called Richlite.

I'd also enthusiastically second the storage cabinet for cookie sheets, cutting boards etc. above the ovens. I can't even remember how I used to store all of them before, but I know they were always hard to get to or just sat out when they should have been put away.

We looked at the Ikea cabinets and finally decided not to do them. A good cabinetmaker, using off-the-shelf boxes and custom doors, was able to do better in terms of price and give us something that was exactly what we wanted. That said, we considered them strongly and were generally impressed with the quality and design; some Ikea stuff looks its low price, the cabinets did not (or maybe they only looked their not-so-low price). I guess my point is, don't assume that they're radically cheaper than other options; they're just radically cheaper than SOME places.

My biggest problem with IKEA products in general is while they look good, especially in the store, they just do not hold up well under the type of daily usage that they would get in a busy kitchen.

One problem we discovered a bit too late. Be sure not to situate your oven/broiler just beneath the smoke alarm.

thanks for all the input. The space is definitely very tight and options are limited due to the windows & doors to the utility room & 1/2 bath.

Moving the fridge is the obvious first move (but I just got those SS shelves 6 months ago ! ). A bigger, single sink and taller cabinets as well. My parents completely redid/expanded their kitchen 5-6 yrs ago so maybe I can ask who they used (I think they spent 35-40k). I bet I could do something w/ a shallow pantry-like cabinet beneath the windows and a L/island coming out from the wall between the windows and door. Ventilation to the outide would definitely be required as I currently have *none* (cue the fire alarm !)

I could definitely afford more than $10k as my HELOC is just sitting there doing nothing right now. I'm not to keen on IKEA, either. I'd much rather spend the extra $$ for hardwood and professional install. my place doesn't do Scandinavian very well, either.

Well, as I sort of hinted, the Ikea cabinets seem to be made on a higher level of quality than so much of their disposable furniture, and in a wider variety of styles than Blöndi. That said, they're hardly the only option in their price range, either.

What you really ought to do, now, though, is get a professional involved, now that you have gathered some thoughts. There's really no substitute for the advice of someone who already knows the 50 best solutions to the 50 most common problems. Beats figuring it out for yourself-- AFTER it's been installed.

Mike G wrote:
What you really ought to do, now, though, is get a professional involved, now that you have gathered some thoughts. There's really no substitute for the advice of someone who already knows the 50 best solutions to the 50 most common problems. Beats figuring it out for yourself-- AFTER it's been installed.

Mike, I'd love to hear your opinions on the best kind of professional to hire, and how to find them. We ended up with free to highly compensated input from three professionals, free advice and some fairly detailed drawings by a neighbor who is a designer (though not a kitchen designer); blueprints from an architect, to whom we paid what seemed like a fortune (though, to be fair, we had to pretty dramatically scale back from the first plans after our first quote and had to have him do a second set of drawings); and revised blueprints and some other suggestions from our contractor, who also turned out to be a licensed architect. And that's not counting the cabinet salesman, who of course also made lots of specific suggestions about what sorts of cabinets would work where (but he's also the person who wrote down what finish we wanted and then sent me an order form with a different finish entirely--which of course I signed--but that's another story).

Anyway, I love our new kitchen, and I can only think of one very minor thing I would have done differently, but even with all this advice I still found myself not knowing things like what color to paint the walls or where to store the electric griddle that we had became so attached to while we were cooking on the dining room table.

I Would love to hear your advice on finding the right professional to help with a modestly priced kitchen re-do.

Thanks.

I have nothing to offer the OP, but find myself looking for similar advice. In particular, anyone who wants to recommend particular service providers based on reliability and price.

We inherited a not very well designed or installed island. The sitting/eating side, opposite the working cooking side is dropped about 6 inches, but was attached with virtually no support so it's been sagging since we moved in. We also never actually use it to sit or eat at, so we are looking at re-doing the island for more work room all at the same height.

We also have the oven and cooktop next to each other, not a single unit. But since the oven died, we have just purchased a range. So the whole top will have to be reconfigured for the new all-in-one appliance.

What I don't know would fill volumes. Who designs, cuts and installs the new island? What's a reasonable price? (I know it depends on materials. We ain't gettin' no Corian, I can tell you that.)

I know that Home Depot, and Costco both have such services. Anyone used them? Would we be better off with a smaller, local business like Community? Anyone have any experiences with this sort of operation? Willing to name names?

Anyone interested in purchasing a perfectly functional Kitchen Aid 4-burner stove we will have left over when we're done?

so, I'm finally about ready to pull the trigger on all this. And while I can't compete w/ JoelF's kitchen thread , here's the basics of what I'm gonna do:

Cabinets

Natural maple. Probably shaker-style doors or a recessed panel w/ a single bead detail. Solid wood w/ dovetail joinery. Cost will probably be ~$4000 from either Builders Cabinet Supply or Home Despot. Style is shown below but will be natural maple



Other cabinet details:

- basic cabinet config will stay the same in addition to new cabinets where refrigerator is located.
- 9" pull out cabinet on the end by dishwasher that has a wire rack for spices and such
- tip-out drawer under sink
- pull-out drawers on all base cabinets
- an island opposite where the current refrigerator sits. Should have plenty of room on all sides even with overhang to allow for seating. May get a wine rack on the end of it.
- A Thomasville catalog I got from Home Depot had this config called a "super cabinet" where it had pull out drawers and "wings" wire racks that pull out. May look into this as it would provide good pantry space.

Countertops
Probably marble or Silestone. GraniteWerks seemed to have resonable prices and includes install. Will probably run ~$65-70 sq/ft with a total of about 43 sq ft. If anyone has any other ideas, please share !

Range
Kitchen Aid KSA906PSS, which is at the upper end of the "regular stuff". It's got a grate that flips over to act as a wok holder so that's kinda cool. has the usual 15k BTU & simmer burners. I'd love to do a cooktop/builtin oven combo but I don't think I wanna deal w/ the cost needed to get a dedicated 220v outlet in my kitchen.



Refrigerator
Amana AFD2535DSS. Should fit OK in the space between the doors w/o blocking walkways (too badly)



Microwave / ventilation
Matching Kitchen Aid for range - KHHS179LSS . Like most above-range units, it's got a 300 cfm recirculating fan but I think I'm goint to build a soffit so that I can vent it to the outside wall. My dad or carpenter neighbor should hopefully be able to help w/ that.



Dishwasher
No idea, really. Cheapest stainless model w/ all hidden controls seemed to be about $800 from Abt, which is where I'll most likely get all the appliances so the salesguy will be able to give me a bit of a better deal. Any suggestions ?

Sink
Haven't decided on an exact model, but style probably just 1 large stainless bowl. The 2nd smaller bowl is OK but I just don't see the use. Will get undermount version.

Faucet
Again, haven't decided exactly but one w/ a large, arched neck will probably be what I get.

misc
Going to redo the floors as well.

The total $$ should end up being about $15-$17k.

Any more comments would be welcome !

It's like the NRA ads: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

We're saving a kitchen remodel until we move, lest we end up with the latest version of avocado appliances:-)

The corrolary to the NRA ad is: bad kitchens don't make bad food, bad cooks do. And guns, properly employed, bring the occasional game into your kitchen.

Maybe it's just jealousy jones, I keep trying to focus on how we can churn out good food in our completely inadequate kitchen.

We did get to buy a refrigerator. I inisisted on bottom freezer, drawer style. It's been nice, but not inline with anything.

Biggest regret about my current kitchen:

The Sub-Zero refrigerator/freezer makes too much noise. During the day time, you would never know it is even here. But at night, it is so totally quiet, the only thing I can hear is the compressor cycling on and off. I've gotten used to it, sort of. But if I ever have to replace it, decibel level will be at the top of my list of criteria.

Bill/SFNM

For the dishwasher, definitely go with Bosch. They are the quietest and do clean the best.....

Though having considered the Bosch, and then looking at the fact that 1/3 the money would get me the quietest American-made dishwasher, I quickly went for a Kitchenaid and have been perfectly happy with it. Yes, it sticks out 3/4 of an inch. Which works out to a savings of about $1600 an inch, since we saved about $1200....

But then I'm just one of those people who, no matter how nice a SubZero undoubtedly keeps my yogurt cold, would rather buy something else AND go to Italy for two weeks. Not that I'm entirely happy with my Amana, but I still may not be unhappy enough to wish I'd spent the extra.

Speaking of countertops-- maybe the Silestone has something you like but (six years ago) I thought it basically came in two lines, Boring and Disco. Either it was a bland oatmealish pseudo-marble or it had little sparkly things in it that I thought were trashé. (But as I say that was six years ago.)

We wound up with two things. Countertops are Formica's version of Corian, a sort of pinkish-rose plastic with black and white specks in it. Doesn't look like it's trying to imitate marble or granite, which is one of the things I admired about it, if anything looks like a very, very tasteful 1950s bowling ball. I realize that this may not seem like it was said by the same guy trashing disco Silestone a paragraph ago, but one was sparkly-trashy and one, well, amusing.

Island, on the other hand, is a concrete countertop done by a guy whose name I think is Richard Marx, down on Halsted in Pilsen, who does a couple of interesting things-- instead of casting on site he casts at his plant and does so upside down, you get a smooth, unsidewalk-like top (which is then sealed). He also uses different mixes and dyes so you get colors that don't look like a sidewalk, either. People think it's some kind of stone at first, it has a basically smooth but slightly pebbled finish.

I've been very happy with both and the price was reasonable on both, I think in the same ballpark as Silestone, though no guarantee that that hasn't changed.

The Silestone and other engineered stone competitorss (Caesarstone, Cambria, Zodiaq (by Dupont) come in pretty close to the cost of granite, with claimed better stain resistance, less porosity, and a warranty, which you'll rarely see with natural granite unless your vendor does so.

The Cambria line has some particularly vibrant varieties on a high-end line made from larger pieces of semi-precious stones such as jasper. Probably too vivid (and expensive) for the kitchen, but might be nice for a bathroom sinktop.

Solid-surface runs about 25% cheaper than engineered stone, but the better looking varieties tend to be about the same price as the midline e-stone.

Concrete costs more than granite, marble or engineered stone, and is still quite porous, which makes me concerned about spills, etc.

Avoid marble and cultured stone (which is to marble what engineered stone is to granite), it scratches and stains too easily.

We're probably going with accented sections in e-stone (the island and bar), with the rest in a solid-surface mildly contrasting color.

That's right, the big advantage of Silestone et al. is that it is not as easy to ruin as real stone. The big disadvantage is that some of it is horsey looking, but if you find something you like, then that's no longer a problem.

I'm pretty sure the concrete was actually the least expensive of the various choices we looked at (other than straight Formica), and as I mentioned was sealed with a matte polycote finish and thus is not porous, though it has "weathered" some with use, in a pleasing way. I would give it serious consideration, if you like the look, I've been quite happy with it.

Well, I finally got around to taking pictures of the new kitchen was actually clean

I finished it back in October. The total cost came out to be around $16k, I think. I unfortunately deleted all the old pics so I don't have any before/after comparisons

Appliances are from Abt. Cabinets from Builders Cabinet Supply. Countertops from GraniteWerks.

Thanks for all the advice. I think it turned out great !

What I like about it

- the giant sink. I got the biggest that would fit into the cabinet and it barely did. It's 11" deep and I can fit an entire meal's worth of pots & pans in it no problem. Easily the best decision I made

- the potrack. I like the non-traditional styling (it's an Enclume) and lucked out in the that installation required no fancy engineering due to the ceiling rafters lining up just right. It was a bit high at first but the ~7" turnbuckles I got at Home Depot solved the problem and they pretty much match the finish . They also allow you to lower the rack if needed. A couple of $.25 washers around the bolts hide the holes nicely as well.

- the continuous cooktop. Makes it very easy to slide heavy pots around while cooking.

- the island. My previous kitchen had like zero counter space and this gives me seemingly acres of it.

- the vent to the outside. makes a huge difference.

What I don't like

- the newer dishwashers run much longer than my old one. It's pretty quiet but it takes forever. It also had issues getting things clean before I started using those prefabbed balls of liquid detergent.

- I wish there was 1 more high powered burner on the stove. The two smaller ones can barely boil a pot of water

- the stove also has a design flaw in the front panel, which pulls away from the frame and might lead to gunk/liquid getting into the electronics. Abt replaced it once but I still have to push it back in once in a while.

- the built in wine cubicles are nice but there are only 4 of them. As you can see in the pic, I removed one of the shelves and bought a separate rack, which fits nicely.

- the water dispenser inside the fridge is sloooooooow.

What I'd do differently

- make sure the contractor installing the cabinets used some sort of template/jig to install the door handles. They didn't and ended up having to redo many of them. They also ruined 1 door, drilling the holes in the wrong place


Here's the pics:

HI,

I have the same dishwasher. You are certainly right about the length of time it takes to clean. Yet when my water heater died recently over the weekend, it was still washing dishes because it heats the water to operating temperature on its own. I specifically looked for that feature because hot water to the kitchen is a long haul and not always very warm initially. My old dishwasher seemed to washing with lukewarm water, which is no longer an issue.

KitchenAid told me to fill the soap dispenser only half way. I can also tell at a glance if the liquid rinse dispenser has emptied. The liquid rinse seems to have some fluorescence quality about to make the dishes seemingly sparkle. Absent everything has a dull look.

How do you like your sink situated in the corner? I had never heard of this placement until the last year.

Sorry your before pictures are absent. I remember them rather clearly. Your kitchen really is a beauty now.

Regards,

I don't mind the sink in the corner. In fact, I prefer it as I doubt I'd utilize the space all the way in the corner if it weren't there.

They did have to set back the sink about 1" further than normal due to its size, but that's not a big deal.