Re: the steamed buns

Are they supposed to be closer to soup dumplings/xiao long bao, with the thin skins? Or more like bao zi, with the thicker, fluffier, more bread like wrapper?

Thanks, Nick, for jumping on with those comments and clarifications. I know that your participation is much appreciated by many here at LTH.

nick.kokonas wrote:On the change in tax billing. The city of Chicago requires that we charge tax on the service charge because it is not a voluntary gratuity. Last time around we charged only food and wine and ended up having to eat the difference in paying the proper tax. So that is a change, but I assure you that we neither wanted to do it, nor am I happy about it -- and we don't keep the money.

That's totally fair.

nick.kokonas wrote:Regarding scalping. I find it hilarious to read all of the differing opinions on scalping and defense of the practice while so many people complain on the other side -- everyone is correct, basically. Obviously, there are a million ways around any system we have and if someone does a cash transaction privately we have no way whatsoever to know how much anyone paid. That said, we do have a right to void tickets that violate our TOS blatantly and obviously. Clearly legal ticket brokers are legal in every respect and there is nothing we can do about that. We try to encourage in every way possible (same night tickets, walk ins late night through Aviary, FB community trades etc) the resale or trade of tickets at fair value.

Just to be clear, I was in no way defending the practice of scalping; I was just trying to figure out what is true and what is not. You guys are pioneering something new here. If you really wanted to try to prohibit the reselling of tickets for higher than face value, you could have explicitly done so in your TOS. You didn't. If the IL legislature knew that restaurants were going to start selling tickets, it might well have included restaurants in the anti-scalping statute. But, it didn't and it didn't.

nick.kokonas wrote:Anything else, feel free to ask.

Yeah. Here's a question...

Someone on Craigslist wrote:To Everyone Selling NEXT Restaurant Tickets - especially SCALPERS

We will be enforcing our Terms of Service (TOS). If you advertise or sell tickets for more than face value (best offer, OBO, etc) they will be voided. We will be reviewing all the ticket selling sites (craigslist, eBay, etc) and will be voiding tickets that are advertised above face value.

What this means for our customers is that if you buy from a scalper for more than face value they will still be voided and your ticket is worthless.

Was that Craigslist post really made by someone affiliated with Next?

I wish you continued good luck with Tour of Thailand.

Thanks again,
--Rich

Nick, I've got a completely unrelated question for ya: is there an ETA on the Half Acre collaboration? I've got my ticket for July 27th and am hoping it'll be there in time to meet me!

I have two questions for Nick:

1. Are you (or your lawyers) claiming that Next qualifies as "amusement" under the Illinois statutes and, if so, what is basis for this? If not, is there any other basis for claiming that resale above retail price is illegal in Illinois.
2. Are you (or your lawyers) claiming that Next's TOS prohibit resale above retail price separate from any issue under the Illinois statutes and, if so, can you reference the part of the TOS that prohibits it?

I would be fine whether you wanted to permit resale above above retail price or not. If you want to permit or prohibit (and it's not otherwise restricted legally), that's your business decision, but I would greatly appreciate a clear statement of what your current policy is and how that relates to the TOS under which people bought the tickets. That is, I would like to understand what you view as blatant violation of your TOS and why. Thank you.

Nick,

Can you please amend your TOS to require that at least one of tonight's diners posts awesome pictures and a comprehensive dish-by-dish review on LTH?

Thanks,

Habibi

Habibi wrote:Nick,

Can you please amend your TOS to require that at least one of tonight's diners posts awesome pictures and a comprehensive dish-by-dish review on LTH?

Thanks,

Habibi

I wish my pictures and writing skills were adequate so I could do it myself, but I feel there are othersn who do such an outstanding job, and would rather leave it up to them.

DrkDragon wrote:

Habibi wrote:Nick,

Can you please amend your TOS to require that at least one of tonight's diners posts awesome pictures and a comprehensive dish-by-dish review on LTH?

Thanks,

Habibi

I wish my pictures and writing skills were adequate so I could do it myself, but I feel there are othersn who do such an outstanding job, and would rather leave it up to them.

In the end, it's just dinner.

I'm certain that if you took it upon yourself, the effort would be appreciated by many here...but if it's not your thing, that's understood, too.

Have fun!

=R=

Kennyz wrote:

theskinnyduck wrote:
Uhm, just some third graders math: It doesn't matter if they tax you first and add the service charge, or add the service charge then tax you.

Price x 1.18 (tip) x 1.11 (tax) = Price x 1.11 (tax) x 1.18 (tip)

What's the problem here?

Have the school board fire your third grade teacher if he or she is still alive. If you have kids, hire someone to help them with their homework.

OMG, this actually made me laugh out loud!

I actually just posted this question on FB today after I did some recalculations of our total bill--should've just come to LTH first. I also called up the City of Chicago Tax department to double check and they did confirm that restaurants are allowed to tax the meal+gratuity (I guess goes back to previous poster's comment about salary vs optional gratuity going directly to server).

I'm not sure why the restaurant doesn't provide itemized receipts either online nor in the email confirmation. Would make things a lot easier, especially when people are splitting up and trading tickets left and right.

Janet C. wrote:... I also called up the City of Chicago Tax department to double check and they did confirm that restaurants are allowed to tax the meal+gratuity...

Required, actually.

Darren72 wrote:

Janet C. wrote:... I also called up the City of Chicago Tax department to double check and they did confirm that restaurants are allowed to tax the meal+gratuity...

Required, actually.

Right, sorry. I think the lady on the phone actually used the word "can," but yes, as Nick explained that's the rule.

Craig's list post was NOT done by anyone at Next... in fact, I have never seen it nor posted on Craig'slist. I have contacted some seller directly.

I am not going to get into a legal debate regarding our TOS / Illinois Law / scalping legality. I am not a lawyer. I have voided some tickets in cases where I could prove the TOS was violated. Obviously the purchaser was not happy. In one case I refunded the price and resold the tickets... in the others I simply voided the tickets. We did spend more than a few hours doing our homework on these issues.

The tax on service is required. We have no choice.

Question for Nick: Are you at a point where you are willing to accommodate diners seeking more heat/fire in the food? If yes, how would you go about requesting extra heat and can it be done for only one or two persons at a table? Thanks.

I asked about an extra condiment for heat and they gave me a green chili condiment. After noticing how much we enjoyed it, they brought out a fish sauce, and another condiment (it had anchovies in it) to add funk and heat... It was delicious.

The extra condiments (I thought) were absolutely vital in perking up a few dishes.

I need some time to organize my thoughts on dinner last night. I thought it was enjoyable, but there were also some issues (some in terms of execution, but mostly how to think about/evaluate this menu). I will say that I hope this menu opens people's eyes to just how good Thai food can be when you look beyond the Ameri-Thai standards. On the other hand, if you've had the authentic stuff at the better places in town, this won't exactly be an eye-opening experience.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts, but also what this portends for Next's future prospects. In order for Next to hold true to its mission statement, this will only be the first of several menus featuring Food You Can Get Somewhere Else For Less Money.

Well, that's one of the issues that makes this so hard. You can't get the same food elsewhere for less money. The quality of the ingredients was spectacular, and some of the techniques were more rooted in fine dining (and even a little molecular gastronomy) versus what you'd get at a place like TAC. I'm more referring to the flavors and overall themes within the menu.

Make no mistake, this is not another Arun's. It also shouldn't be seen as a replacement for a neighborhood joint. It exists in a very hard to define place, I think.

nick.kokonas wrote:Craig's list post was NOT done by anyone at Next... in fact, I have never seen it nor posted on Craig'slist. I have contacted some seller directly.

I'm sure you didn’t make the craigslist post. It is, however, very similar to your post on facebook, perhaps a customer trying to discourage posted it:

Next facebook post wrote:NOTE TO SCALPERS... we will be enforcing our TOS. If you advertise or sell tickets for more than face value they will be voided.... and yes that means if you buy from a scalper for more than face value they will still be voided.

nick.kokonas wrote:I am not going to get into a legal debate regarding our TOS / Illinois Law / scalping legality."

I wasn’t asking for a legal debate. Rather, I was hoping you would be willing to offer your customers some explanation of your views on your TOS. As far as I can tell, no one who has commented substantively on this issue in this thread understands your basis for claiming that resale above retail price is against your TOS. Given that your position is unclear to most everyone, I had hoped you would clarify.

Try to read your TOS and see whether it is clear to you, either taken alone or in conjunction with the Illinois statutes. I assume that’s what the TOS is meant to do, to define the TOS to your customers. That is, put yourself in the position of one of your customers and see if it is clear that resale above retail price is prohibited. If it is not clear, I would have thought you would want to explain or clarify. But obviously you can and will do as you see fit.

Finally, I don’t understand why your lawyers didn’t just advise you to state in your TOS that resale above retail price is prohibited if that is the policy you wanted. That would be easier to understand. As I've said earlier, I'm fine with preventing resale above retail price or not, whatever you think best. I would prefer clearer communication on this and other issues.

I really don't mean to be difficult (I realize how complicated starting a new and in some sense truly revolutionary business model can be) and I am very much looking forward to trying the Thai menu. Best wishes.

jesteinf wrote: It exists in a very hard to define place, I think.

My thought as well. I think in their point of view, they took some regional representative dishes, and made it the "Next" way (put some flare into it, execute/present in different ways, Achatz influenced I would say). So the menu turns out to be not as authentic as some hope. But it is kind of expected, right? They don't try to be the-most-authentic-Thai-food-in-Chicago, they want to serve Thai-food-the-Next-way.

By the way, what's the special for KT in time?

Went last night, food was very good, with the funk condiment being a mandatory request. Had a couple of miscues though, one fairly bad, and the other two mildly amusing.

Prior to dining I learned one of my dining companions was allergic to Mango, I emailed the restaurant and recent a prompt though incorrect response:

Hi, I just learned one of my dining companions for Friday has an unbeknownst to me has allergies to raw crustaceans and mangos. I did read the FAQ and know that those are definitely not on the list of acceptable allergies for this menu, but would he still be able to enjoy most of the menu while skipping one or two of the offerings?

Next: So long as they can consume shrimp/prawn/shrimp paste - we should be ok to substitute the 1 raw shrimp course we have with something else. The mango - is fine no mango on the menu!

Not even in the Salted duck egg with green mango and white radish? Just kidding if that condiment is the only place the mango is on the menu, that’s great.

Next: haha - i am losing my mind - yes - that as well would have raw mango in it...eyeyeye, too many emails! anywho - still should not be a problem - i will speak with the chef's about it.

Informed the server on our arrival of the mango allergy as it did not seem that information had been passed along ahead of time. Not a huge deal but it did provide a fairly large amusement, one of the beverage pairings included mangosteen juice, which caused a minor panic for our server John (who we also had for Paris and whose service style I like a lot) who prepared a substitution for my friend as they couldn’t decide what relationship mangos and mangos teens had (if any). Josh said the Google Machine had provided no help.

The other larger issue was the kitchen had run out of rice by the time we got to the Beef Cheek dish and we had to wait quite a bit after the course was delivered for the kitchen to prepare a fresh batch (we were the 10:30 seating, I believe the last for the night). This lead to us getting out even later than expected.

All in all was very pleased with the meal, I would say it was a much more fun menu than Paris and the coconut desert managed to quiet our well lubricated raucous table immediately. That was some dish.

Elars wrote:Informed the server on our arrival of the mango allergy as it did not seem that information had been passed along ahead of time. Not a huge deal but it did provide a fairly large amusement, one of the beverage pairings included mangosteen juice, which caused a minor panic for our server John (who we also had for Paris and whose service style I like a lot) who prepared a substitution for my friend as they couldn’t decide what relationship mangos and mangos teens had (if any). Josh said the Google Machine had provided no help.

Mangosteens and Mangos are not in the same genus, not even the same family of plants actually. I doubt you are allergic to Mangosteens because of the Mangos. I just dont want you to miss out on mangosteens, they are one of the most delicious tropical fruit (if you can get your hand on fresh good ones outside of asia).

theskinnyduck wrote:

Elars wrote:Informed the server on our arrival of the mango allergy as it did not seem that information had been passed along ahead of time. Not a huge deal but it did provide a fairly large amusement, one of the beverage pairings included mangosteen juice, which caused a minor panic for our server John (who we also had for Paris and whose service style I like a lot) who prepared a substitution for my friend as they couldn’t decide what relationship mangos and mangos teens had (if any). Josh said the Google Machine had provided no help.

Mangosteens and Mangos are not in the same genus, not even the same family of plants actually. I doubt you are allergic to Mangosteens because of the Mangos. I just dont want you to miss out on mangosteens, they are one of the most delicious tropical fruit (if you can get your hand on fresh good ones outside of asia).

Something we knew, but appeartly neither the service staff nor the google machine did.

Elars wrote:
The other larger issue was the kitchen had run out of rice by the time we got to the Beef Cheek dish and we had to wait quite a bit after the course was delivered for the kitchen to prepare a fresh batch (we were the 10:30 seating, I believe the last for the night). This lead to us getting out even later than expected.

All in all was very pleased with the meal, I would say it was a much more fun menu than Paris and the coconut desert managed to quiet our well lubricated raucous table immediately. That was some dish.

The good thing about the Thai menu, you can ask for more rice. The bad part apparently is it affects the other diners. Hope they are learning to prepare some extra rice in case... I know we had 3 servings of the rice and felt a bit guilty.

The coconut dessert was sublime... I could have that dessert all the time on hot summer days like the one's we've been having. The corn in it... So good!

From the looks of the menu posted on the website, I believe the kitchen table extras were a som tum (prepared tableside), a "skewers" course, a couple of extra things in the garnishes course, and we got dragon fruit instead of sticky rice (I would have preferred sticky rice).

jesteinf wrote:From the looks of the menu posted on the website, I believe the kitchen table extras were a som tum (prepared tableside), a "skewers" course, a couple of extra things in the garnishes course, and we got dragon fruit instead of sticky rice (I would have preferred sticky rice).

Oddly enough, we didn't have sticky rice, and I believe others have dragon fruits too.

I said a little while ago that the Thailand menu was going to be a lot harder for Next to pull of than Paris was. After eating at the Kitchen Table on Friday night I can confidently say that I was right.

There wasn’t a whole lot that was “wrong” with our meal. In fact, I would say that it was extremely enjoyable (thanks in no small part to the company). However, the whole experience left me slightly underwhelmed and maybe even unsatisfied. The bottom line is that if you’ve been to the better Thai places here in town, and you’ve ordered the authentic stuff from the translated menus, there’s nothing going on at Next right now that will blow your mind or change your world in any way. I would even go as far to say that there’s nothing on the current menu that reaches the heights of the duck from the Paris menu.

I think that for 90% of the people who go to Next this won’t be a problem. If Next can serve as a gateway for these people to get out and explore what "real" Thai food has to offer than that’s great. For people here though, don’t go to Next: Thailand and expect the same wonder or enjoyment that came from modern cooking rediscovering the antique duck press.

There were a number of ways that the Thailand menu could have been as successful or exciting as the Paris menu:

1. The Next team found dishes/techniques in Thailand that no one (or very few people) are using here in the US. They find something new to engage even experienced diners
2. The Next team goes all the way and does the Thailand of the future, putting a completely new spin on things we’ve all had before
3. The Next team goes completely over the top on ingredient quality, making things that you’ve tasted a hundred times before seem incredibly new

At least as I see it, Next: Thailand exists in the spaces between these three possibilities. All of the research for this menu was done in the US (mainly in Chicago and mainly at the restaurants you would expect). I don’t expect the Next team to travel the world to put these menus together, but there are bound to be limits that come from a more limited approach. The coconut dessert was something right out of Alinea, and I thought it was incredibly delicious, but it was completely out of context with the rest of the meal. Finally, the ingredient quality is phenomenal but I don’t think that did much to elevate the meal with the exception really of two dishes (the raw shrimp bite and the catfish).

So, like I said earlier, my feelings on this menu are complicated. We had a conversation at our table about whether this meal was more “exotic” than Paris. The answer is likely “no”. But, that might have more to do with the fact that we’re so much more exposed to authentic Thai than classic, old school French these days (especially in Chicago). In the end, what I think this menu really does is show how challenging the overall concept of the restaurant is. There’s not much time to develop, not much time to test, and it requires a tremendous amount of trust on the part of diners. Given this system, there’s no doubt that there will be highs and lows from menu to menu. Not every menu will speak to every diner in the same way. I still look forward to the next menu, I just wasn’t nuts about this one.

Dined at Next on Sunday 7/17...

New nameplate on the door:


Thai newspaper waiting on the table:


Menu holders were hidden inside the paper:




Steamed buns w/ green curry:




Roasted banana:


Prawn cake w/ chili oil and lime zest:


Sweet shrimp w/ mint leaf:


Fermented sausage:


Drink pairing for the second course: chrysanthemum limeade with gin:


Pork belly, tomato, ginger awaiting the broth:


There's the hot and sour broth:




Condiments w/ rice:


Salted duck egg condiment:


Chili, shallot, ginger condiment:


Pickled veggies & mango condiment:


Fish sauce condiment:


Thai chili condiment:


Catfish in caramel sauce w/ celery, coriander root:




Beef cheek in yellow curry w/ peanut, nutmeg, keffir lime:




Watermelon & lemongrass:


Coconut:


w/ corn, egg, licorice:


w/ coconut milk shaved ice:


Dragonfruit w/ rose:


Thai iced tea to-go:



Some thoughts:

Enjoyable meal and a fun experience, but after the amazing Paris menu my expectations might have been too high, and Thailand ultimately felt like a bit of a letdown. Which is not to say it wasn't delicious or that I regret buying tickets.

Of the street food apps, my favorite was the roasted banana, followed closely by the shrimp.

Only the first three condiments were brought out with the rice course. Prior to the arrival of the catfish, we inquired about the additional condiments and were told they could bring us 'funky' (fish sauce) and 'spicy' (thai chili) sauces. While those were being retrieved, another server inquired if we were interested in spicing up the meal with other condiments. So perhaps the servers are now being proactive as opposed to waiting for the diners to ask? Still not sure why the the 'funky' and 'spicy' aren't brought out with the others...they served their purposes, but neither was especially or overwhelmingly strong.

Of the original condiments, the shallot/garlic one was my favorite. The pickled veggies were cold and slightly sweet, and therefore functioned fairly well as a palate clearer. The salted duck egg (did they change it from 'preserved' to 'salted'?) was nondescript and the least-used.

As with Paris, the broths & sauces were incredible- every last drop of the hot & sour broth, the caramel sauce, and the yellow curry was scooped up and savored.

The high quality of ingredients was most evident in the meats and seafood.

Loved the presentation of the coconut dessert...we had fun putting the shells back together after finishing the course.

The dragonfruit dessert was sweet, but not overwhelmingly so...I really enjoyed the crunchy textural contribution of the seeds.

Even though we finished them at the table, I liked the idea that you could take the thai iced tea to go.

Service was wonderful...friendly & engaging with a bit of humor. I was greeted with a 'welcome back', which, while unlikely to have been based upon physical recognition, was still nice. One of the other servers did recognize my dining partner though and made sure to stop by our table.

Sorry if I missed this upthread, but is there a date attached to the Thailand menu? Did the 2060 (or whatever futuristic year that was floating around) fall off the concept at some point? One of the things I most respected about the Paris menu and experience was the historical specificity and interpretation. Of course, no food is ahistorical, but the current menu seems rather generic in that respect. I've got a kitchen table coming up soon and am having second thoughts.

No date. It is a tour of Thailand.

happy_stomach wrote:Sorry if I missed this upthread, but is there a date attached to the Thailand menu? Did the 2060 (or whatever futuristic year that was floating around) fall off the concept at some point? One of the things I most respected about the Paris menu and experience was the historical specificity and interpretation. Of course, no food is ahistorical, but the current menu seems rather generic in that respect. I've got a kitchen table coming up soon and am having second thoughts.

IIRC, Nick said on Next's facebook page that there has never been any time period attached to the name; 2060, 2032, etc., are just speculations. This current menu is just Thai food in different regions, hence Tour of Thailand.

nick.kokonas wrote:Hi... thought I could answer a few questions and comments on here.

First, we have *never* said we were doing future Thai food... I am not sure why the press says we are doing Bangkok 2060 or whatever, ...

Here's why:

Grant Achatz via Serious Eats wrote:When we go into the future, Bangkok 2060, obviously nobody knows what it's going to be like in 2060. So, sure, we're going to take some poetic license. But you can bet we'll do our homework and look at where Thai food has been the last couple of hundred years, identify the way it's swung, and try to extrapolate what WE think it might be like in 2060.