Mmm Brisket
Mmm Brisket
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Mmm Brisket
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Post #1 - January 6th, 2008, 6:28 pmAll the recent talk about braising, and the recent cold snap, made me want to do a Brisket (capital B). Part of it is sort of a "Taking Back the Holidays" thing -- my family seems to have forgotten how to do brisket. Several of last few of homemade ones were dry and tough, and one clan member skips the effort and just buys them from a caterer.
So I looked at this thread, and thought that the New Basics/Nach Waxman recipe linked from there by Joy sounded kinda like the old family recipe except for the lack of potatoes.
Then I dredged up the actual family recipe (in a database I had to transfer out data from to read), and found it made with Lipton's Onion Soup and Manischevitz, neither ingredient I stock.
So I fudged a few things together: caramelizing onions in the above recipe seemed a better alternative than the dry soup, and added some red wine. I added potatoes after an hour and a half (when I took it out to slice), and cooked another hour and 20 minutes. That's where I made a mistake: It came out of the oven pretty much dry. Another cup of water would have been useful when I added the taters. As it is, about 2/3C of water refreshed the dish, warmed through when we were ready to serve.
The brisket itself was a cryovac from Costco, about 3 1/2 lbs. Strangely, the cryovac ones were $2.79/lb, and the foam-tray ones were $4.49! The one I bought looked like a 10" disc, but when unfolded from the vacpac turned into a rough triangle that only fit in a roasting pan -- but I needed that space for the taters and carrots anyway.
So while I'm prepping, MrsF says, "Should I make bread?"
I countered, "Challah?"
She groaned, then decided yes, it's a good idea.
So a fantastic meal was consumed. Soft umami-laden slices of brisket with sweet carrots and tender potatoes, and a velvety gravy over it all.
Now I know how to do it, I have to decide if I'm going for the gold and making brisket for 30 for the next big holiday.What is patriotism, but the love of good things we ate in our childhood?
-- Lin Yutang
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Post #2 - January 6th, 2008, 7:36 pmSounds wonderful, Joel. I braise a few briskets each winter because, for me, it's the absolute King of braised meats. A friend taught me his family's brisket recipe about 20 years ago and I can't think of any other recipe that I've been happier to have acquired over the years.
As for making it for a larger group, I highly recommend it. Brisket can easily be made a day or 2 in advance, which makes it perfect for a larger group. In fact, it can often be even better when the cooked, sliced meat is returned to the juices and allowed to sit in the refrigerator. It reheats easily from there, as well. There's also a nice advantage to doing it this way in that most of the hardest, messiest work is well behind you (and already cleaned up) by the time your guests even arrive.
=R=By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada
Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS
There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM
That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
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Post #3 - January 6th, 2008, 8:02 pmI asked my grandmother for her brisket recipe years ago and was also shocked to learn that Lipton's Onion Soup mix was a key ingredient. She tells me now that she only used it for the seasoning, but used actual onions also. Another secret ingredient she used was Bennett's Chili Sauce (basically, in place of the tomato paste in your recipe). Another recipe in my family calls for a bottle of French dressing.
It sounds like your "fudges" were right on. I am surprised that yours dried out. Was the pan covered? I usually do my braises at a slightly lower temperature - say, 300 degrees -- though I doubt this was what caused it to dry out.
This is the first recipe I've seen that calls for slicing the meat midway through cooking. The recipe doesn't say it, but slicing against the grain makes a big difference.
One thing that may explain the lower price of the cryovac brisket is that it was a whole brisket, where as the one in foam was just the so-called "first cut". From Wikipeida:
"In the U.S., the whole brisket has the meat-cutting classification NAMP 120. The brisket is made up of two separate muscles, which are sometimes separated for retail cutting: the lean "first cut" or "flat cut" is NAMP 120A, while the fattier "second cut", "point", "deckel", "fat end", or "triangular cut" is NAMP 120B."
The first cuts are in the range of 7-9 lbs (thought you can buy halves of them). The second cut is more triangular, has a lot more fat, and weights 3-5 lbs. Usually you'll see either whole briskets or just first-cuts for sale.
I second Ronnie's suggestion that brisket is quite easy to do for a group. Plus, it's a great feeling to take over that important holiday responsibility. Definitely make it a day or two ahead of time and gently reheat in the sauce.
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Post #4 - January 6th, 2008, 8:36 pmOn it drying out -- it was a near thing.
Another 20 minuties it would have been inedible, as it was, only the top surface of some slices were discolored and dry to the touch.
The problem was the potatoes: the original recipe didn't have any liquid added to it at all (except for a call for a few tbs of water if absolutely necessary), but it didn't have liquid-sucking tubers either.
Like I said, I added about 3/4 cup of water to the pan out of the oven, the whole thing sat and steamed for most of an hour, then I reheated it on the stove until the new sauce was bubbling. Almost like I meant it to go like that.What is patriotism, but the love of good things we ate in our childhood?
-- Lin Yutang
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Post #5 - February 2nd, 2008, 3:22 pmJust a comment about brisket ... it really is better the next day. A rest in the cooking liquid apparently allows the meat fibers to reabsorb juices.
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Post #6 - February 2nd, 2008, 9:59 pmronnie_suburban wrote: A friend taught me his family's brisket recipe about 20 years ago and I can't think of any other recipe that I've been happier to have acquired over the years.
=R=
And that recipe is???
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Post #7 - February 2nd, 2008, 10:52 pmT Comp wrote:ronnie_suburban wrote: A friend taught me his family's brisket recipe about 20 years ago and I can't think of any other recipe that I've been happier to have acquired over the years.
=R=
And that recipe is???
With pleasure . . .BRAISED BRISKET OF BEEF
Original Recipe by my friend Josh, revised by Ronnie Suburban
Brisket – Whole, trimmed or flat (if you must)
2-3 Large Yellow Onions (enough to cover bottom of pan when sliced)
2 lb Carrots - peeled and trimmed (or more if you like carrots)
HUNGARIAN Sweet Paprika (Szeged or other premium brand)
Garlic powder (use only premium stuff or leave it out)
Kosher salt
8 - 12 oz. Beer, water or beef stock (water is preferable to canned stock)
4-6 tbs Ketchup
2-3 tsp Brown Sugar
Pre-heat oven to 300 F
Slice onions into thick disks
Line the bottom of a (coverable) roaster with the sliced onions.
And the carrots (I prefer whole, peeled)
In the following order, rub meat thoroughly on all sides with the following:
Kosher salt – a liberal sprinkling
Garlic powder – a lighter sprinkling
Paprika – a full heavy coating – entire brisket should be covered with the paprika.
Place meat (fat side up) on the bed of onions and carrots.
Pour liquid (I prefer Bass Ale) into bottom of roaster, ¼” deep.
(avoid pouring onto the meat if possible)
Cover roaster and place into a 300º F oven for 2 hours.
In almost all cases this must cook for at least 4 hours. Allow 20-30 minutes per pound as a minimum guideline for cooking, but if it doesn’t cook for at least 4 hours, the collagen will probably not break down and the meat will likely be tough.
After the first 2 hours, remove brisket from oven and baste it gently with pan juices, trying not to wash the seasonings off the meat. You can re-season it if too much comes off.
After basting, cover the entire surface of brisket lightly with evenly-spaced drops of ketchup.
Sprinkle brisket lightly with an even layer of brown sugar.
Place covered brisket back in oven for 2 more hours.
Remove brisket from oven again and baste with juices to move ketchup into the juices. You may want to put some onions back on top of the brisket to keep it moist. Place back in oven for 30 minutes (you may want to do this uncovered if you want to thicken the pan juices.)
At this point, I usually remove the brisket from the roaster, separate out the veggies and then de-fat the juices. After that, I slice the brisket (against the grain) add it back to the pan, add back the de-fatted juices and cook the brisket, uncovered, for another 30 minutes or so. I usually don’t add the veggies back at this point—instead, I serve them separately.
Remove from oven and serve. Can be made a day or two ahead, which often improves it.
=R=By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada
Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS
There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM
That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
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Post #8 - February 3rd, 2008, 1:09 pmHaving played with a number of family and cookbook brisket recipes and techniques thru the years, I've finally landed on a combo that works well for me.
First, I pat the brisket dry, score the top (fatty part), season with salt and pepper, and brown it well on both sides. Then, it goes into a roasting pan.
Next I add sliced onion to the browning skillet with some salt, and cook the onions until slightly golden. Next, a bottle of dry red wine is added to deglaze the pan, which is then simmered and reduced by half. A quart of beef stock is then added, brought to a simmer, then the whole mixture is dumped on top of the brisket. I cover the roasting pan tightly and bake at 325 for 3 hours.
When I take it out of the oven, I uncover and let the brisket cool in the gravy for an hour. It's then removed, let to cool completely and wrapped in foil and into the fridge. The onions are strained out of the gravy and go into one container, and the gravy into another, both into the fridge.
The next day, I slice the brisket against the grain and place in a baking dish. I skim the fat from the gravy and bring it to a simmer in a saucepan with the onions. That is poured over the sliced brisket and goes into a 350 oven for 30 minutes.
I roast the potatoes and carrots separately and add them to the sliced brisket right before serving.
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Post #9 - March 19th, 2009, 9:59 amI've started to plan my Passover brisket. One thing that I've been wondering is how the brisket might turn out if it is cooked at a lower temperature (say 225 degrees) for a longer period of time (say 10 hours rather than 4). Has anyone tried this?
I smoke briskets low and slow, and that got me thinking about doing something similar for a braise. I found a recipe that Top Chef runner-up Richard Blais did on the Today Show where he cooks it for 12-14 hours at 250 degrees. So this convinces me that it's worth trying, but I'm curious if others have experience with this.
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Post #10 - March 19th, 2009, 11:02 amI've done pork shoulder low & slow in the oven, just exactly the same way you would do barbecue: rub, no foiling, in the center of the oven with a drip pan below. Works out fine. You even get a bark, since you're not cooking in foil. I can't see any reason why it would work with brisket. Foiled (as given in that recipe), and you should be guaranteed a moist, tender final product. It's all just heat & meat & time, right?
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Post #11 - March 19th, 2009, 1:45 pm"One thing that I've been wondering is how the brisket might turn out if it is cooked at a lower temperature (say 225 degrees) for a longer period of time (say 10 hours rather than 4). Has anyone tried this?"
The whole point of "low & slow" is that the ideal conditions for conversion of collagen (tough) to gelatin (tender) require maintaining an internal temperature not too far above or below 212 degrees. An oven temp of 225-250 is pretty much optimal, provided you seal the pan tightly.
At my house we smoke brisket year-round, and also at Passover. The best results are obtained by smoking for about an hour per pound, then transferring to a roasting pan, sealing tightly in a double layer of heavy foil and finishing for anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour per pound in a 250 degree oven.
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Post #12 - March 19th, 2009, 2:19 pmThanks for the feedback. I should have been more clear. I am going to braise the brisket, as we usually do. I'm not planning to smoke it or slow roast it. Not that these methods won't produce wonderful food, but for this Passover I'd like to stay close to the traditional dish in my family. The only variable I'm changing is cooking the meat at a lower temperature and for a longer period of time.
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Post #13 - March 19th, 2009, 2:25 pmI wonder what makes Blaise's recipe a braise. A braise has liquid. His has none, unless I'm reading it wrong or it's a misprint....defended from strong temptations to social ambition by a still stronger taste for tripe and onions." Screwtape in The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis
Fuckerberg on Food
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Post #14 - March 19th, 2009, 2:43 pmYou are right. It isn't a braise.
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Post #15 - March 19th, 2009, 4:04 pmPerhaps he considers the trapped moisture in the foil equivalent to a braise. I'm not sure whether it would technically qualify, though, but it should have the same effect.
But, yes, if you want to do a traditional braise at a lower temp for a longer time in the oven, there's no good reason that won't work. Go for it.
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Post #16 - March 19th, 2009, 4:59 pmDarren, I completely understood, that's why my first sentence was a complete response to your question. I only included my smoking/braising method to underscore how effective that method is whether you start it in the smoker or keep it in the oven throughout.
And yes, it is "braising", there's plenty of liquid that collects in the pan through the cooking process.
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Post #17 - March 21st, 2009, 8:22 pmYears ago someone gave me the coke and chili sauce recipe for brisket in a bag. I play with it a little, adding onions and carrots, sometimes potatoes, garlic, mustard, brown sugar, pretty much whatever I'm in the mood for. I've made it in the crock pot as well as covered in the oven, it's pretty much no-fail and everyone loves it. Do i lose my LTH cred for admitting this? LOL
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Post #18 - April 28th, 2009, 9:22 amDarren72 wrote:I've started to plan my Passover brisket. One thing that I've been wondering is how the brisket might turn out if it is cooked at a lower temperature (say 225 degrees) for a longer period of time (say 10 hours rather than 4). Has anyone tried this?
I smoke briskets low and slow, and that got me thinking about doing something similar for a braise. I found a recipe that Top Chef runner-up Richard Blais did on the Today Show where he cooks it for 12-14 hours at 250 degrees. So this convinces me that it's worth trying, but I'm curious if others have experience with this.
I've been meaning to follow-up on this. I braised two briskets at 225 degrees; one just before Passover and one for the Passover meal itself. For both, I browned the meat on the stove and then braised it at 225 for about 8 hours. Both turned out excellent and slightly more tender than I typically get when I cook them for 3-4 hours at 350 degrees.
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Post #19 - April 28th, 2009, 9:23 amDarren72 wrote:Darren72 wrote:I've started to plan my Passover brisket. One thing that I've been wondering is how the brisket might turn out if it is cooked at a lower temperature (say 225 degrees) for a longer period of time (say 10 hours rather than 4). Has anyone tried this?
I smoke briskets low and slow, and that got me thinking about doing something similar for a braise. I found a recipe that Top Chef runner-up Richard Blais did on the Today Show where he cooks it for 12-14 hours at 250 degrees. So this convinces me that it's worth trying, but I'm curious if others have experience with this.
I've been meaning to follow-up on this. I braised two briskets at 225 degrees; one just before Passover and one for the Passover meal itself. For both, I browned the meat on the stove and then braised it at 225 for about 8 hours. Both turned out excellent and slightly more tender than I typically get when I cook them for 3-4 hours at 350 degrees.
Did you braise it, or did you "Blais" it?...defended from strong temptations to social ambition by a still stronger taste for tripe and onions." Screwtape in The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis
Fuckerberg on Food
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Post #20 - April 28th, 2009, 9:36 am
I braised it. Both had carrots, onions, celery, garlic, canned tomatoes, and some spices. The liquid in the first batch was the liquid from the can of tomatoes with a little water. The second one had wine, with a little liquid from the can of tomatoes.
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Post #21 - January 7th, 2012, 6:27 pmBumping this thread in hopes of getting some new ideas for brisket.
I have a point. I know, I know I should have gotten a flat or a whole brisket but I have a point, so tips on making the most of it are most welcome.
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Post #22 - January 7th, 2012, 8:38 pmI'm a really big fan of the Nihari recipe from Anupy Singla's "Indian Slow Cooker" and adapted it for a whole flat inn a low oven. simple and very tasty.What is patriotism, but the love of good things we ate in our childhood?
-- Lin Yutang
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Post #23 - January 8th, 2012, 3:32 amLAZ wrote:Bumping this thread in hopes of getting some new ideas for brisket.
I have a point. I know, I know I should have gotten a flat or a whole brisket but I have a point, so tips on making the most of it are most welcome.
Not sure why you're down on getting a point. If I had to pick one or the other, I'd go for the point myself. It's easier to deal with and much more forgiving. Just cook it as you would chuck, shank, or other braising cut. It's got plenty of fat and connective tissue, so you don't have to worry about it as much as the leaner and more finicky flat. It'll be great in any stew or pot-roast type recipe.
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Post #24 - January 9th, 2012, 5:21 amBinko wrote:Not sure why you're down on getting a point. If I had to pick one or the other, I'd go for the point myself. It's easier to deal with and much more forgiving. Just cook it as you would chuck, shank, or other braising cut. It's got plenty of fat and connective tissue, so you don't have to worry about it as much as the leaner and more finicky flat. It'll be great in any stew or pot-roast type recipe.
That's what I thought when I bought it, but when I started looking up recipes, they all called for flats or whole briskets.
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Post #25 - January 9th, 2012, 8:21 amWhen I was a firehouse cook I always had great success with this recipe. Reserve some of the garlic for mashed potatoes and serve with some greenbeans.
http://homecooking.about.com/od/beefrecipes/r/blbeef165.htm
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Post #26 - January 16th, 2012, 4:41 pmTo sear or not to sear?Arthur Schwartz wrote:The whole brisket, fat and all, no browning necessary....
I made the whole brisket exactly that way. I cut in half the piece of first cut and cooked half of it that way, too. The other half of the lean "first cut" I first browned in a little vegetable oil on top of the stove in a very large skillet....
The best of the three was unquestionably the whole brisket. The browned first cut was juicier than the unbrowned first cut.
The big surprise of the experiment, however, was that the whole brisket was absolute heaven the day it was made. I had expected it to be even better, or at least just as good, when reheated the next day. It wasn't. It's optimum moment was when it came out of the oven after 4 hours at 350 degrees. Still, it was excellent (and better than the others) on the second day, and easy to slice neatly. Follow my slicing and reheating directions below.
Browning vs. not browning: If you insist on very lean first cut only, or if you are cooking for such a small number of people that a larger piece of meat becomes ridiculous or unaffordable, by all means brown the meat first -- over medium heat. A whole brisket is, for one thing, too large to brown in home-sized pots on a home range.Real Food Digest wrote:To Brown or Not to Brown
Most recipes instruct you to brown the beef first. I’ve tried it both ways and have not noticed a flavor difference. I prefer less steps – and less dishes.
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Post #27 - January 16th, 2012, 4:59 pmI usually brown all meats before braising. For something as large as a brisket, you have three options: do it in a large roasting pan (that perhaps covers two burners), brown it on the grill outside, or brown it in a high-heat oven.
If you really prefer fewer steps, the dish won't be bad simply because you didn't brown the meat.
Also, when you brown it, brown it. I saw a dish cooked on America's Test Kitchen recently and they said they were browning chicken pieces before braising them. But they hardly browned them at all.
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Post #28 - February 8th, 2012, 9:19 pmLAZ wrote:To sear or not to sear?
In the event, I made a slight variant of the fairly traditional Jewish-style braised brisket I always make: I browned the salt-and-peppered meat under the broiler, which worked beautifully and is much easier and less messy than wrestling with it on the stovetop, and with the point, didn't require any extra fat. (With a lean flat, you might want to oil it first.)
Then I took it out of the pan filled the bottom of the roaster with carrots, parsnips, lots of onions, a couple handfuls of garlic cloves and some bay leaves. I set the meat on top, sprinkled it with paprika, added about a cupful of wine and cooked it at 325 for four hours, basting a bit toward the end. It was wonderful, tender and moist and got better day after day (a brisket is a lot of meat for two people).
The cooked garlic cloves were terrific smeared over the meat. That's about as innovative as I got, though. Maybe next time I'll try some new idea.
The nihari sounds good, Joel. What did you do differently for an oven version?
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Post #29 - February 9th, 2012, 8:47 amI always sear brisket for my basic jewish brisket recipe (Nach Waxman's version, with a couple minor changes because I like my potatoes and carrots in the cooking liquid). I use a wok because it's huge, sear a couple briskets serially (we've had as many as 35 for some of the holidays, but that number's down these days), then throw an enormous amount of onions and some garlic into the wok to cook down somewhat.
For an ovened nihari, I just scaled up the "Indian Slow Cooker" recipe and tossed it in a 250 oven, covered. I'm trying to remember if I added a little liquid part-way through. As it is, I made a lot more than I'd intended at that time, and a bunch of it went into mini pot pies I served at my xmas party, along with some simmered veg (carrot, potato, pea, onion, seasoned similarly to the nihari but a little spicier to offset the fact that I made the nihari mild for my original audience and it was getting a crust)What is patriotism, but the love of good things we ate in our childhood?
-- Lin Yutang
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Post #30 - February 9th, 2012, 12:59 pmJoelF wrote:For an ovened nihari, I just scaled up the "Indian Slow Cooker" recipe and tossed it in a 250 oven, covered.
For 9 hours, like the slow-cooker version?
