dradeli wrote:Perfectly medium-rare burgers that were safely pasteurized.

HI,

I'm not sure this would be considered pasteurized. I did check to see UHT milk is pasteurized at 135 degrees.

Regards,

Cathy2 wrote:

dradeli wrote:Perfectly medium-rare burgers that were safely pasteurized.

HI,

I'm not sure this would be considered pasteurized. I did check to see UHT milk is pasteurized at 135 degrees.

Regards,

Just so there's no confusion, that's 135 C (275 F)


Edited to add: cooking anything at 130 F certainly won't pasteurize it - many microorganisms thrive at that temperature. And of course with sous vide, one of the main concerns is that the anaerobic conditions encourage C. botulinum growth at the regular temperatures used (e.g. to cook said burger).

Here are some guidelines for pasteurizing beef at lower temperatures:



Keep in mind this is talking about steaks/chops, not ground beef. I don't know how using ground beef changes things.

Hi,

What differs with ground beef is the much greater surface area from having been ground or minced. Whereas a roast only the outer surface has been exposed.

I like my hamburgers medium-rare leaning toward rare. I don't want to talk myself out of it.

Thanks for the reference table, I was looking for a source to refer to. Who is the source of the table?

Regards,

It's from this presentation:

RETAIL FOOD SYSTEMS RESEARCH CONFERENCE
FSMS / HACCP PROCESS DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION COURSE FOR REGULATORS AND INDUSTRY:
HOW TO WRITE AND APPROVE A HACCP FSMS
Thursday, January 10, 2008, 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. Peppermill Resort*Spa*Casino Reno, Nevada
O. Peter Snyder, Jr., Ph.D.
Hospitality Institute of Technology and Management

It seems that the table gleam posted does include a section for ground meat (it's in the middle of the table).

I stand corrected then, it seems that you can pasteurize meat at 130 F - but I'm still not sure if they considered the anaerobic environment of vacuum packed sous vide bags. Don't get me wrong, I sous vide stuff all the time and have suffered no ill effects (knock on wood), but I'm speaking from a hypothetical standpoint.

The microbiology behind this is that for lower-temp sous vide, you need a long, long cook time to eliminate bacteria. The UHT Pasteurization of milk is 135C for an instant -- the goal being killing the bugs without changing the milk significantly (sorry, doesn't work, it still tastes like sweet cardboard).

That's part of the reason why you see sous vide cooking for hours even on a tender cut, if you want to leave it at medium rare temps. The classic "danger zone" of 40-140F is for short periods of time. 130 can be safe with a long cook. I do not have the exact details, but the chart above gives some of the data points. That's also why you can end up with tender short ribs at 135F -- if you've cooked it for four days.

The other thing I don't have is the last part for my homebrew immersion circulator -- the submersible pump. My brother has a couple he's never used in his aquariums, but I don't see him often. Then, it's about a half-hour work to get my parts connected, and I should be heating up a big ol' waterbath in no time. 4-day shortribs, here we come.

Here's what I'm not sure about, though: will 3 hours at 135F take care of e coli too? I don't know the answer to that, and the chart is mainly talking about salmonella.

Hi,

e coli does not thrive where there is oxygen or acidity. To kill e coli, you need a pressure cooker to reach temperatures of 241 degrees.

Regards,

gleam wrote:Here's what I'm not sure about, though: will 3 hours at 135F take care of e coli too? I don't know the answer to that, and the chart is mainly talking about salmonella.

Yes (135F = 57C).
D-value [time for reduction by 90%] for bagged ground beef immersed in 57.5C water bath is 4.95 mins. based on this publication:

Thermal destruction of Escherichia coli O157:H7 in beef and chicken: determination of D- and Z-values
International Journal of Food Microbiology, Volume 35, Issue 3, 15 April 1997, Pages 231-23
doi:10.1016/S0168-1605(96)01237-8

Cathy2 wrote:Hi,
e coli does not thrive where there is oxygen or acidity. To kill e coli, you need a pressure cooker to reach temperatures of 241 degrees.

E coli does grow in oxygen...

sazerac wrote:

gleam wrote:Here's what I'm not sure about, though: will 3 hours at 135F take care of e coli too? I don't know the answer to that, and the chart is mainly talking about salmonella.

Yes (135F = 57C).
D-value [time for reduction by 90%] for bagged ground beef immersed in 57.5C water bath is 4.95 mins. based on this publication:

Awesome! Great to know.

My understanding about pasteurizing is that the higher the temp the less time and that lower temps require more time. In the book on sous vide that I have 130 degrees seems to be the minimum temp that can be used to still allow for pasteurization.

It is important to know that the golden rule of Sous Vide is:

Do not cook anything cooler than 130F (55C) for more than 4 hours.

It is still quite safe to cook a steak at 52C (for instance) for anything up to 4 hours before searing or blowtorching.

Fish cooked for only enough time for the heat to penetrate to the centre of the fillet is fine also.

A detailed description of why this is so is provided by Douglas Baldwin here:

http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

Hope this is useful.

Regards,

Peter.

Costco.com has the Sous Vide Supreme for $299.99 until 1/22/12. Tempting.

I received the Sous Vide Supreme as a combination holiday/birthday gift and it really has changed the way I cook. Be it fish, duck, chicken or beef, I'm finding that the phrase "perfectly cooked" is now the norm. I've had toys before, but none that totally elevated the food I prepare like this.

Tonight I had guests over for the Oscars and among other things, I prepared about 4 pounds of beef tenderloin (grass fed from Butcher and Larder). Although I've knocked quite a few items out of the park with my SVS, this one took the cake. This was the first time I've ever had beef tenderloin cooked perfectly all throughout - usually, rare in the middle but medium near the edges. Here, I coated it very simply in olive oil, salt and pepper, and cooked it (cut into two portions) to 130 degrees before finishing in a blazing hot pan with a little oil on the stove. It came out just shy of medium rare throughout, incredibly tender and delicious. Although I'm usually a fan of more flavorful cuts of beef, tenderloin is perfect for a crowd and after cooking it in the SVS, I can't imagine ever cooking tenderloin conventionally again - no way.

BR, Try prime ribeyes or NYstrip. S/P then 130 and finish on hot coals, rest, brush or place gently on a paper towel that has encountered some mild flavorful vinegar. I don't think I can go out for steak anymore and my little ones don't eat/know steak any other way...
Steak more than anything else showcases sousvide for me

sazerac wrote:BR, Try prime ribeyes or NYstrip. S/P then 130 and finish on hot coals, rest, brush or place gently on a paper towel that has encountered some mild flavorful vinegar. I don't think I can go out for steak anymore and my little ones don't eat/know steak any other way...
Steak more than anything else showcases sousvide for me

Yeah, I was holding off on the dry aged ribeye ... this cut of tenderloin was my priciest challenge and convinced me to go hog wild. I also find it to be such a time and space saver . . . words hardly do it justice.

BR and Das, you've got me pretty excited: sitting in the basement at this very moment is the Costco Supreme, just delivered from South o' the Border. Can't wait to try it. Unfortunately, it'll be a bit of a PITA to sear it off on the bbq: we got 25cm of snow Saturday, and the temp is hovering around -8°C, so I think I'll have to wait until conditions are a bit more favorable for that great hunk o' beef. But in the meantime, what would yinz recommend I begin with?

Geo

Geo wrote:BR and Das, you've got me pretty excited: sitting in the basement at this very moment is the But in the meantime, what would yinz recommend I begin with?
Geo

Yinz? Geo, get some short ribs!

Wow Bill, *there's* an excellent idea! Sounds like tomorrow night's din is set up. I just *love* short ribs!

["Yinz": since Das is a Pittsburgher now, I thought I'd address him in the locally native dialect, which I speak after having lived there a number of times, whence came my dear wife, The Other Dr. Gale, also a yinzer! ]

Geo

Geo wrote:Wow Bill, *there's* an excellent idea! Sounds like tomorrow night's din is set up. I just *love* short ribs!

["Yinz": since Das is a Pittsburgher now, I thought I'd address him in the locally native dialect, which I speak after having lived there a number of times, whence came my dear wife, The Other Dr. Gale, also a yinzer! ]

Geo

Geo, you might want to start right away. For standard bone-in short ribs, I cook them ~48 hours @ 135F-140F, depending on how you like them.

Bill/SFNM wrote:

Geo wrote:Wow Bill, *there's* an excellent idea! Sounds like tomorrow night's din is set up. I just *love* short ribs!

["Yinz": since Das is a Pittsburgher now, I thought I'd address him in the locally native dialect, which I speak after having lived there a number of times, whence came my dear wife, The Other Dr. Gale, also a yinzer! ]

Geo

Geo, you might want to start right away. For standard bone-in short ribs, I cook them ~48 hours @ 135F-140F, depending on how you like them.

This recipe, which, by coincidence, I happen to have started last night on my Sous Vide Professional (brand new, first cook), calls for 72 hours. A friend made these for me and they were spectacular.

=R=

Looks great, Ronnie! But given your 72-hrs and Bill's 48+, obviously I'll need to rethink my ETA on these!

I'll report back on my results...

Tnx guys!

Geo

Geo wrote:Looks great, Ronnie! But given your 72-hrs and Bill's 48+, obviously I'll need to rethink my ETA on these!

I'll report back on my results...

Tnx guys!

Geo

I'd love to know for sure that 48 hours is enough and I'm guessing it is (since Bill has done it). Please do report back and good luck!

=R=

For the beef tenderloin, I seared it in pan on the stove with a little oil on high heat. If you're working with a great piece of meat, I think this method would be pretty close to ideal for a steak too and should ensure an even sear. But I've done chicken & halibut and I'm finding that it's not so much what you choose to cook in the SVS ... you just need to pick the right internal temperature ... then finish it off appropriately once removed from the SVS.

Quite frankly, the more I cook sous vide, the more I wonder how any upper echelon restaurants are not using this type of equipment in their kitchens.

Hmmmm, obviously there's going to be a learning curve here. Can anyone recommend a good, instructive introductory cookbook?

Geo

I have always been very pleased with 48 hours for short ribs. It is more than enough time to break down the collagen. Tough cuts have a pretty wide window of doneness. Tender ones don't. I once turned a beautiful boneless lamb leg into mush.

Geo wrote:Can anyone recommend a good, instructive introductory cookbook?

Geo

Geo, I own 5 SV cookbooks. With the exception of Thomas Keller's Under Pressure (an advanced cookbook that assumes you have a vacuum chamber sealer), I can't really recommend the rest. All you really need is a time/temp chart and an understanding of safe food handling to avoid food-borne illnesses. SV cooking charts abound on the Web with pretty wide variances as we can see just from this discussion on short ribs.

To be honest, my favorite things to do are dishes I already enjoy that I have re-imagined to take advantage of the strengths of SV. For example, I love fried chicken, especially big, juicy bone-in thighs. When deep or pan frying, I find it difficult to get the chicken cooked all the way through without overcooking the crust. So I seal raw thighs in a bag with a weak buttermilk brine. Allow to marinate in the fridge over night. Cook in water bath at 170F for a few hours. Remove from bag, coat in favorite batter, and deep fry just until the crust is done. The final product isn't as greasy, which may or not be a good thing for you. I like it.

Bill/SFNM wrote: So I seal raw thighs in a bag with a weak buttermilk brine. Allow to marinate in the fridge over night. Cook in water bath at 170F for a few hours. Remove from bag, coat in favorite batter, and deep fry just until the crust is done. The final product isn't as greasy, which may or not be a good thing for you. I like it.

got dang that sounds awesome

I built my own quite some time ago, but bought the SV Supreme when my son got interested.

One of the tricks I use is making garlic and onion juice in the vita-mix and using that for steaks and chicken.

What seems to work out better for me when using fruit flavors for chicken and duck is putting everything in a vacuum tumbler and them putting them into the sealer for SV cooking. Just sealing them with the juice does not often workout as well. I also use a jaccard tiner for the cheaper cuts of meat as well beforehand. You may laugh, but the pre-made red pork seasoning that you can pick up from a brand like Momma Sitas at most asian stores actually is a favorite of the kid when doing cut port loins. Very quick and easy.

A funny/sad one:
My son had to create a meal for his class in a required 8th grade home ec/health class. Part of the reason I bought the home unit rather than let him use my home built one. It was a riot - he got an 'F' because the teacher did not believe the write-up on how things were cooked. He did everything in the SV because he thought it was cool, and wanted to show off raspberry infused veggies as well as use a butane torch (UNDER CLOSE SUPERVISION!) After a very interesting meeting with the dist. super and the teacher the grade was switched to an 'A' and the super ordered a unit for his wife. The teacher never spoke to me again.....