Drinking or not drinking at Muslim-operated BYOB

A while ago, I asked this question in reference to the Kabul House:

... I can't help wondering, do restaurateurs who themselves don't imbibe on principle (e.g., religious belief) feel a little annoyed by customers who bring alcohol into their restaurants? I know, if they say they're BYOB, officially they allow it; I'm just wondering about the subtler sensibility, not wanting to offend.

These were the replies:

Kennyz: Most restauranteurs I've met are people. As people, they tend to have widely varying opinions about matters such as alcohol and religion.

Kman: My gut feel is that any place that advertises as being BYOB is probably also OK with being BYOB. If they aren't, though, I'm not going to spend much effort divining how it affects them . . . anymore then I would by having veal at a place that chooses to serve veal but for some reason the owner are opposed to veal (or foie gras or . . .).

Other than the fact that he misspelled restaurateur, Kennyz's reply made me feel foolish (surprise, surprise), and still lacking any guidance. Kman's reply made me think I needn't spend any more time worrying or wondering about it.

Then today, I saw this, in Time Out's 2012 Eating & Drinking Guide, in the paragraph on Chopal Kabab & Steak, on Devon, which is identified in the Guide as being BYOB:

... and refrain from bringing wine or beer out of respect for the devout Muslim staff and diners.

So now I'm wondering again.

Katie wrote:A while ago, I asked this question in reference to the Kabul House:

... I can't help wondering, do restaurateurs who themselves don't imbibe on principle (e.g., religious belief) feel a little annoyed by customers who bring alcohol into their restaurants? I know, if they say they're BYOB, officially they allow it; I'm just wondering about the subtler sensibility, not wanting to offend.

These were the replies:

Kennyz: Most restauranteurs I've met are people. As people, they tend to have widely varying opinions about matters such as alcohol and religion.

Other than the fact that he misspelled restaurateur, Kennyz's reply made me feel foolish (surprise, surprise), and still lacking any guidance.

Kenny's reply, while brusque, is totally valid: who's to say there's a generalized rule for ALL Muslim-owned restaurants that claim to be BYOB? Some owners might actually feel uncomfortable/offended by the presence of alcohol in their restaurant, while others might be totally fine with patrons having a beer or some wine with dinner, and simply choose not to consume alcohol themselves. People really do tend to have widely varying opinions, so the best way to get an answer to this question would be to call the specific restaurant at which you plan on dining beforehand and ask them where they stand on the issue.

Thanks, Khaopaat. Calling ahead is good advice.

I wonder also, is it disingenuous for a place to advertise itself as BYOB if the management would really prefer that patrons don't BTOB? And/or, are the pressures of the marketplace such that the management typically can't afford to express that preference?

Katie wrote:Thanks, Khaopaat. Calling ahead is good advice.

I wonder also, is it disingenuous for a place to advertise itself as BYOB if the management would really prefer that patrons don't BTOB? And/or, are the pressures of the marketplace such that the management typically can't afford to express that preference?

Agreed. It seems more than a bit passive-aggressive to claim to be BYOB and then feel insulted if it's acted upon.

One of my favorite ever yelp reviews, of Khan BBQ:

A group of 10 of us went here on Saturday night. Imagining that this place was BYOB (not sure where I got that idea from, but that's beside the point) I plopped a bottle of wine on the table and my boyfriend cracked open a beer. A waiter came over, whispered something to the guy at the head of the table, and we figured that it was not okay that we brought our own. No big deal, I put away the bottle of wine and my boyfriend quickly finished his beer on the down low.

We were then treated to the most comically awful service. Like it was blatantly on purpose bad. Our group found it very entertaining waiting to see what disrespect we would next be subjected to. I won't bother going through the list, but it was seriously ridiculous and hilarious. I guess the beer and wine offended them or something. Whoops.

Anyway, the food was basically the same as the other good places on the block.

Interesting - a place where I have eaten, ZAD mediterranean on Broadway, was not BYOB, and we asked if they were considering, and were told no, the owners were against it. I guess they were having trouble in that market, and now they are BYOB. I like Casbah up the street better. It is smaller, but has a nicer atmosphere (rugs and wood and more "decor" around the place). It also is BYOB, and has no issues with it as far as I can tell. Casbah also seems to only have one or two people who ever work there, and they seem connected to the place, where Zad seems to have wait staff who seem just like employees.

I think Kenny said it well. If I'm dining at a Muslim-owned restaurant -- whether I'm in Chicago or London or Morocco or someplace else -- and I don't know if alcohol is welcome, I'll ask before I assume. I know plenty of Muslims who drink & eat pork (just as I know shrimp-eating Jews), but I know just as many who don't imbibe.

A great general rule of thumb is if they have a sign on the window that says BYOB, then don't feel wierd bringing any. Muslims in the US don't try to force their beliefs on anyone, and respect our way of life - which is why they came here in the first place. Many muslims that came to the US also tend to break their traditions and partake in alcohol and pork occasionally. I went to college with many muslims that would get plastered at the bar and eat hot dogs just like the rest of us. Many Muslim restaurant owners are happy just to be able to get Americans in their restaurants because not many people in this country understand their cuisine, so they are usually willing to allow alcohol. If in doubt, call ahead and ask if it's ok to bring in booze.

To me this seems to be a very simple example of when calling ahead and asking is the best option. There's no general convention one can follow that will likely be more accurate than that.

=R=

frankly if in a Muslim country where the Law specifies adherance to the Muslim religeon then its no alcohol.
I happen to live in a country (USA) where alcohol consumtion is legal and I don't feel the need to ask anyone's permission to BYOB. If the establishment clearly specifies no BYOB, that's there right and I won't patronize the establishment but I don' worry about offending anyone in my vacinity if I am consuming alcohol. I think this is carrying 'sensitivity' training to the extreme.-Dick

budrichard wrote:frankly if in a Muslim country where the Law specifies adherance to the Muslim religeon then its no alcohol.
I happen to live in a country (USA) where alcohol consumtion is legal and I don't feel the need to ask anyone's permission to BYOB. If the establishment clearly specifies no BYOB, that's there right and I won't patronize the establishment but I don' worry about offending anyone in my vacinity if I am consuming alcohol. I think this is carrying 'sensitivity' training to the extreme.-Dick

Right. Because calling ahead to ask is hard work, and showing basic consideration for others is "carrying 'sensitivity' training to the extreme".

Muslim owned establishments are not the only ones with bans on BYOB. For instance, Flower's Pot, a now defunct Belizean restaurant used to ban alcohol. I don't think their aversion to BYOB was motivated by religion. I think they just had bad experiences with drunken patrons. It is not uncommon to see parties abusing BYOB privileges by consuming way more booze than would normally accompany a meal. I think some places, rather than deal with those potentially explosive situations, simply ban BYOB altogether.

d4v3 wrote:Muslim owned establishments are not the only ones with bans on BYOB. For instance, Flower's Pot, a now defunct Belizean restaurant used to ban alcohol. I don't think their aversion to BYOB was motivated by religion. I think they just had bad experiences with drunken patrons. It is not uncommon to see parties abusing BYOB privileges by consuming way more booze than would normally accompany a meal. I think some places, rather than deal with those potentially explosive situations, simply ban BYOB altogether.

Several years ago I was with a large eG group at a popular spot in Pilsen. This was before my drinking days but a few bottles of tequila were byo'd and not everyone in the group handled it very well. Over the course of the evening, our group became loud and somewhat unruly. At one point, someone pulled a Khrushchev: took off his shoe and started banging it on the table (I still have no idea why). There were more antics but you get the point. It was embarrassing.

As we were leaving, the manager/owner took a few of us aside and said "next time, only beer or wine." Message received. I felt lucky that we hadn't been kicked out and was totally chagrined by our group's behavior. Anyway, the point of the story is that I believe proprietors always have the last word on byo and even have the right to enforce their policy selectively.

=R=

To me, this is an odd question.

If someone advertises their place as BYOB, I assume they are fine with people doing it. Even if their religious stance is against alcohol, apparently they don't care enough to lose potential business because of it. If they were truly opposed to people drinking in their restaurant, they should just go ahead and not allow it.

Secondly, and more perplexingly, how do you even know what religion, if any, the restauranteur follows?

I must say it seems odd to me that there are restaurants that call themselves BYOB yet don't actually want customers to take them up on it. The term "BYOB" has a widely understood alcoholic connotation, so if they are uncomfortable with alcohol, it should be explicitly stated. Still, erring on the side of politeness is never a bad thing, so it's best to call first.

ETA: I just realized I would never, ever even think to ask if BYOB is OK at any restaurant on Devon, yet wouldn't think twice about bringing a bottle to a Turkish restaurant. Just an example of the diversity and range of Muslim practice.

I wonder if part of the confusion stems from not having a widely spread term that means "Don't drink alcohol here." We just came back from Turkey, and there are restaurants that label themselves alcohol-free on their signage, especially in areas that have a lot of tourists. It's a simple, one-word phrase that I've just never seen in the U.S. I think it's hard to communicate this idea without running the risk of alienating potential diners or giving rise to unfortunate impressions.

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but do restaurants apply for BYOB? If a guide labels a place BYOB, that might be the guide's mistake that really means they just don't serve alcohol.

Anyhow, I agree... just ask nicely.

I thought this topic was pretty ridiculous (just ask, right?), until one of my co-workers suggested picking up some beer on the way to a team dinner this week.

I'd been dining at the particular restaurant frequently (about once a week during my current project) and had never seen anyone consuming alcohol there. Based on the type of food served, it's highly likely that the owners and many fellow patrons might reject alcohol on religious grounds. However, upon consulting their website I found that they do mention they are BYOB.

Now, I felt quite conflicted. Obviously, if they advertise themselves as BYOB, I would be completely within my rights to bring a 6-pack. However, all of my previous experience at this same restaurant gave me the impression that it could make my dining experience uncomfortable to do so. Now, that is my own interpretation of the facts, and it's possible I'm being too sensitive, as Dick suggests, but I didn't think it was necessary to find out.

Ultimately, we decided against bringing outside beverage, due to time constraints more than anything. We had a fantastic meal and will all be returning to the place at some time in the future. Until/unless I see others openly taking advantage of the BYOB policy there, I probably won't feel comfortable doing so myself, which feels silly, but it is what it is. Maybe I'll ask the owner the next time I'm in...

chgoeditor wrote:I think Kenny said it well. If I'm dining at a Muslim-owned restaurant -- whether I'm in Chicago or London or Morocco or someplace else -- and I don't know if alcohol is welcome, I'll ask before I assume.

I've been thinking about this again and I'm going to go back on an earlier comment of mine, agreeing with the suggestion to call ahead. For one thing, how am I supposed to know for sure if a restaurant is Muslim-owned? Yeah, sure, for certain cuisines it's a logical guess, but not foolproof. Assyrians, for example, are Christians, not Muslims. Or what if the owners are not teetotallers but some of the staff are? Or other diners?

Do I need to call in advance to inquire about the owners'/employees'/regulars' religion and views on alcohol for any place that advertises itself as BYOB to ask if they really are sincerely okay with me BingMOB? The "call ahead" suggestion is now starting to seem like a silly hassle to me. I'm starting to side with someone's earlier comment about it being more than a little passive-aggressive to advertise your restaurant as BYOB if you really don't want people consuming alcohol there.

Not that you (by which I mean you, not I) shouldn't call ahead if you think that will help you decide, nor that you should refrain from bringing alcohol or from drinking alcohol that you brought if the vibe you sense at the place tells you not to and in all other respects you are really enjoying the dining experience (as in the example kl1191 describes). Just saying, I can't see calling ahead to BYOBs all the time to ask how they really feel about being BYOB.

This is silly. If they advertise BYOB, you should feel free to BYOB without thinking much more about it. If they don't advertise BYOB, call and ask. Calling covers a lot of sources of uncertainty, including but not limited to religion.

I agree, Darren. Just to clarify, my question pertains specifically to places that do advertise themselves as BYOB. What prompted my original post was a review in the 2012 Time Out Eating and Drinking issue that identified a restaurant as BYOB but also advised that you not bring alcohol "out of respect for the devout Muslim staff and diners."