Coney Dog of Cincinnati
Coney Dog of Cincinnati
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Coney Dog of Cincinnati
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Post #1 - October 25th, 2004, 9:38 amI learned at Culinary Historians Symposium, the owners of Jim's (as well as the rival cousin's Maxwell Street Express) are Macedonian. What surprised me more, there is a tradition of Macedonian-owned hot dog vendors. BTW - Macedonia is a region in former Yugoslavia bordering on Greece, which is considered Greece by the Greeks but Macedonia maintains it's autonomy. So the Greek owned and run Hot Dog stand may just as well be Macedonian.
There was a speaker who is well-versed on the Coney Dog, which also has Macedonian roots, I since found an article which reflected his information:
Cincinnati Chili by Cliff Lowe wrote:In 1922, a Macedonian immigrant, Tom Athanas Kiradjieff settled in Cincinnati with his brother, John. He opened a hot dog stand, which he named 'Empress' and sold hot dogs and Greek food. He did a lousy business because, at that time, the large majority of the inhabitants were of German heritage, and nobody in the area knew anything about Greek food, and weren't thrilled by it.
Tom was not to be defeated. He took a Greek stew, maintained the Mediterranean spices of Cinnamon and Cloves, changed the meat to ground beef, and added other spices, such as chili powder, to the mix and began to sell this stew over spaghetti and called it 'Chili.' It proved to be a successful experiment. He also came up with the idea of selling his Chili in 'ways', which is also unique to the area.
Today, Cincinnati Chili is still assembled and sold the way ole Tom used to sell his: Two Way means spaghetti topped with chili (get it? Two Way means two items, spaghetti and chili); Three Way is spaghetti topped with chili and grated cheddar cheese; Four Way is spaghetti topped with chili, grated cheese and chopped onions; and Five Way is kidney beans or chili beans, heated separately, placed on the plate then topped with spaghetti, chili, onions and grated cheese.
If you stop in a Cincinnati chili parlor you must have a 'Coney.' Now, the history of this sandwich is somewhat vague, but Uncle Tom gets the credit for this, also. Seems that, en route to Cincinnati; he passed through the Coney Island area of New York. Later when he decided to cover one of his hot dogs on a bun with mustard, Cincinnati Chili, and onions, and top it all off with a lot of finely grated Cheddar Cheese, he named it a 'Coney Island' and the name sticks to this day. 'Coneys', as the locals call them, are now made with a hot dog that is a bit smaller and shorter than a regular wiener, to allow more room for the chili and other goodies that go thereon.Cathy2
"You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
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Post #2 - October 25th, 2004, 10:14 amI used to love coney dogs (as well as 4-way) from Skyline. Around here you can get these at Chili Mac's on Broadway & Barry (maybe Briar?). Not quite as good as Skyline, but pretty darn close.
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Post #3 - October 25th, 2004, 10:39 amHI,
A friend inquired if the Coney dog sold via A&W Stands is the same type of hot dog, which it is.
There was a Coney hot dog stand in Chicago maybe 4-6 years ago, with a lot of money involved, which closed in less than a year. I guess they thought we'd drop our "salad on a bun" and run to their altar. Apparently the numbers were not there.Cathy2
"You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
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Post #4 - October 25th, 2004, 10:42 amTo clarify, as the link shows, there is (1) Macedonia, the northern region of Greece, and (2) the 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia', (FYROM). Lots of typically Balkan controversey over boundaries, culture, etc., but I think it's fair to say that most of what can be called "geographic Macedonia" is culturally on the Greek side of the mountain. The dog-father's middle name would appear to put him there, too.
Macedonia gave us Alexander as well as Coney Dogs. They get around.
I wonder, did they say anything about the relationship between Cincy coney dogs and the Coney dogs of Detroit and various places in between (eg, other major cities in OH and in Western PA)?
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Post #5 - October 25th, 2004, 11:18 amJeffB wrote:To clarify, as the link shows, there is (1) Macedonia, the northern region of Greece, and (2) the 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia', (FYROM). Lots of typically Balkan controversey over boundaries, culture, etc., but I think it's fair to say that most of what can be called "geographic Macedonia" is culturally on the Greek side of the mountain. The dog-father's middle name would appear to put him there, too.
Rather than trying to explain the controversy over who can call what ... I have heard Greece is attempting to strip Macedonia, of former Yugoslavia, of the right to call itself Macedonia via the European Economic Community. And then they argue over who can legally call Feta ... and someone in Wisconsin would not have the right, if it was up to the Greeks. These deep cultural divisions are quite serious to those involved.JeffB wrote:I wonder, did they say anything about the relationship between Cincy coney dogs and the Coney dogs of Detroit and various places in between (eg, other major cities in OH and in Western PA)?
They are apparently of the same origin. There was another Chowist there, who will pipe in if I am mistaken.Cathy2
"You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
Facebook, Twitter, Greater Midwest Foodways, Road Food 2012: Podcast
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Post #6 - October 25th, 2004, 12:02 pmI didn't mean to sound glib when describing the controversy as typically Balkan. Typically Balkan controversies are typically very serious stuff, obviously.
My only point there was to clarify that the northern part of modern Greece is called Macedonia, as was the southern Yugoslavian republic.
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Post #7 - October 27th, 2004, 2:31 pmI can testify that the Cincinnati Chili chains (Skyline, Empress, Gold Star) have spread as far north as Columbus and as far south as Louisville. Personally, I can't pass one without having at least a coney.
I have a good recipe. Should I post it? (New here, still feeling my way.)
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Post #8 - October 27th, 2004, 3:11 pmcowdery wrote:I can testify that the Cincinnati Chili chains (Skyline, Empress, Gold Star) have spread as far north as Columbus and as far south as Louisville. Personally, I can't pass one without having at least a coney.
I have a good recipe. Should I post it? (New here, still feeling my way.)
You bet! You might want to give this a read, first. Glad to have you, Chuck, and I greatly look forward to your contributions.
Cheers,
Aaron
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Post #9 - August 10th, 2005, 4:53 pmI like most of the Cincy chili chains but if you want what many consider to be the best chili emporium in Cincinnati go to Camp Washington Chili, it's just off I-75 very close to downtown at the Hopple St exit. It's the original location though the building was rebuilt due to interstate expansion. Owner is a greek guy who goes by the name of John Johnson and he makes over 60 gallons of chili every day.
He also serves another Cincinnati culinary gem, goetta. Goetta is very popular in Cincinnati and they have 2 goetta festivals every year.
Directly across the street from Camp Washington is another chili parlor, US Chili, started by a relative. Both excellent.
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Post #10 - August 10th, 2005, 9:26 pmHi,
Do you mind describing goetta for the uninformed?
Thanks in advance.
Regards,Cathy2
"You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
Facebook, Twitter, Greater Midwest Foodways, Road Food 2012: Podcast
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Post #11 - August 11th, 2005, 12:18 amCathy2 wrote:Do you mind describing goetta for the uninformed?
Cathy,
I'm not Ritz, but I've had Goetta a few times and liked it quite a bit.
Goetta is similar to scrapple, though made with oats, as opposed to cornmeal, and seems to be Cincinnati specific. Typically goetta is sliced, pan fried and eaten accompanying eggs, potatoes and toast for breakfast.
Enjoy,
Gary
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Post #12 - August 11th, 2005, 7:55 amWe made goetta at home all the time. Pinoats and sausage.
Many Swiss-German farmers make a product call panhaus using cornmeal. My wife's family used the "remaining" parts of a slaughtered pig for that.
To be honest with you, both these dishes were made at the same time a hog was butchered to get rid of some of the by-products.
It is a very heavy dish and generally prepared and eaten on COLD days (like when pigs were slaughtered).
My aunt still makes a batch each year in Cincinnati. Her's is just OK as she doesn't season it near enough.
I have a recipe for it but I cannot eat enough of it to make it worth while ... most people make batches of 10#+.
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Post #13 - August 13th, 2005, 1:30 pmchecking the freezer, I see that the ingredients of the Gliers goetta (see the goetta.com link above, although the shipping kills you) are:pork & beef, pork & beef broth, steel cut oats, pork hearts, pork skins, onions, salt, spices, MSG. I made it a couple of times from my step grandfather's recipe (old german family), and remember the meat and the pinhead oats and the onions along with various spices. My homemade was never as good as the gliers, so I havent made it for years. As mentioned above, it is sliced and pan fried, and often served with maple syrup......Noticed that I am down to my last pound in the freezer....will have to tell my dad to bring some if he ever wants to see the grand-kids again.
-Will
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Post #14 - August 13th, 2005, 8:59 pmI've never had "store bought" Glier's. I've only had home-made, just because that's how I was raised and have continued to make my own. I cannot get pinhead oats in Knoxville so when I run out I just use steel cut oats and find that it works almost as well IMO.
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Post #15 - August 13th, 2005, 9:07 pmThe problem with making goetta, scrapple or any of the derivatives is the meat that you use. Most homemade recipes call for ground pork or sausage which is generally made from the "high on the hog" parts rather than the leftovers of the butchering process. Therefore, you get a product that is quite a bit different than what you would get in the country.
For the record, goetta is generally served in Perkin's locations in Cincinnati during the winter months.
As for Glier's, it is a good product. Ands until their abrupt closure in late 2004, Stegner's made a pretty good Cincinnati Chili and both real and mock turtle soups. Unfortunately, Cincinnati stores depleted their supply before I could get down there.
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Post #16 - August 14th, 2005, 9:15 amI had many a pancake and goetta and fried egg meal at the perkins in kenwood/montgomery when I was out late enough that skyline was closed.
-Will
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Post #17 - August 18th, 2005, 7:37 amG Wiv wrote:Goetta is similar to scrapple, though made with oats, as opposed to cornmeal, and seems to be Cincinnati specific. Typically goetta is sliced, pan fried and eaten accompanying eggs, potatoes and toast for breakfast.
LTH,
Here's a picture of goetta which was pan fried and served as part of a larger breakfast during a Q-Fest I attended last weekend in upper Michigan. Goetta tastes terrific, crisp exterior, dense, yet yielding interior, flavorful and quite rich.
Goetta was brought and cooked by Ted H, a Cincinnati native.
Here's a picture of my modest Q-Fest breakfast. Goetta in front topped by cracklings from 10-year aged country ham, (clockwise) country sausage that was 'hung' for three weeks and developed the most wondrous tang, Southwestern Frittata, country ham (10-year) with red eye gravy, cantaloupe.
Enjoy,
Gary
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Post #18 - August 18th, 2005, 8:35 amHow'd that cantelope get in there?Steve Z.
“Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
― Ludwig van Beethoven
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Post #19 - August 18th, 2005, 9:15 amGary,
Goetta is generally cooked in two ways.
Some people like it sliced very thin and grilled until it is almost crunchy.
I prefer it sliced thicker - like it is done in the pictures - crisp on the outside and soft on the inside.
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Post #20 - August 18th, 2005, 5:07 pmstevez wrote:How'd that cantelope get in there?
more curiously, is that floss making a move at the goetta?
I grew up in Cincy eating homemade goetta at about every Sunday breakfast. I'll have to check our family recipe, but I think it calls for about a pound of each ground beef and pork sausage along with the pinhead oats. It's very easy to make in a crock pot. In my experience, homemade goetta is packed into loaf pans and frozen. The frozen loaf is allowed to thaw slightly and then sliced before browning in a cast iron pan.
great stuff.
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Post #21 - August 22nd, 2005, 12:56 pmSimon wrote:more curiously, is that floss making a move at the goetta?
Simon,
Reason for the dental floss was the host of this particular BBQ Q-Fest is a dentist and, more as a joke than anything else, provided everyone with dental floss. I thought the floss added a nice touch to the picture.
Enjoy,
Gary
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Post #22 - September 18th, 2005, 2:47 pmThere's a healthy version of the classic recipe. Substitute bulgar wheat
for ground beef, add the dry mix packets available here ("Gold Star" and "Cincinnati" labels.) Makes a pretty tasty version. Sorta like the "Fantastic Foods" dry mix, but don't add the beans and tomatoes.
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Post #23 - September 18th, 2005, 9:28 pmIf you prepare Cincinnati Chili the night before using 85/15 ground beef, you can refrigerate and take off most of the fat before serving. The boiling of the ground beef helps to separate the fat from the chili.
When I am in a hurry, I use the Cincinnati brand mix which is available at most midwestern Krogers stores as well as Meijers.
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Post #24 - December 17th, 2008, 10:35 amJust returned from a trip to the Cincy area, and had my first really good Cheese Coney for a long time: we often get them heading out of town, and the chili parlours that are on the fringes often just don't get it. So we went for the second-last option headed out of town; still outside the I-275 radius that often means danger, but still close enough to count as a suburb of Cincinnati and have a sense of what's appropriate.
The coney itself is kind of the slider of hot dogs: steamed bun, a hot dog that's closer to a Vienna Sausage than anything else, originally steamed but rolled on a grill I think mostly for the melted fat coating. The coney should have a delicate balance between the chili and the onions, and you need to eat it while the cheese is still cold. Ideally, you get mustardy melting bun combining with the chili, a big hit of cinnamon and allspice followed by the crunch of onion, and then a yeilding, mild skinless sausage. The last flavor is the cheese, an odd hybrid of cheddar and velveeta (they claim it's mild cheddar, but it has a silkiness that belies unprocessed cheese.) Perfect - and we ordered right, two to start, with a second round of two to follow so you don't wind up with gloppy, wilted cheese.
Skyline Chili Restaurants
10625 Harrison Ave
Harrison, OH 45030
(513) 367-0614
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Post #25 - December 17th, 2008, 1:07 pmMhays wrote:Just returned from a trip to the Cincy area, and had my first really good Cheese Coney for a long time: we often get them heading out of town, and the chili parlours that are on the fringes often just don't get it. So we went for the second-last option headed out of town; still outside the I-275 radius that often means danger, but still close enough to count as a suburb of Cincinnati and have a sense of what's appropriate.
While I prefer Gold Star, I think that you make a critical point. The further that you head out of Cincinnati, the less likely that you will have a good meal at a Skyline Chili Parlor, although the downtown Dayton location is also very good.
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Post #26 - December 17th, 2008, 1:16 pmThe hubby is a Skyline purist: me, I think of Skyline and Gold Star as two completely different things - Skyline is about the play of flavors and textures.
Gold Star (which offers and requires a more liberal application of chili) has an interesting gritty texture that's closer to a traditional chili dog, though still saucy. It's more about states of matter: the solid dog, the runny chili and the airy cheese; the flavors are more of a counterpoint.
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Post #27 - July 20th, 2010, 12:59 pmPerhaps an invention a trendy purveyor would want to add to their menu offerings:Curly dog cutting boards, donated by patent-holder Alma Lach. Given away on day when Coney Island hot dogs were served. A curly dog fits on a hamburger bun and holds chili in the middle without the usual mess.
Regards,Cathy2
"You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
Facebook, Twitter, Greater Midwest Foodways, Road Food 2012: Podcast
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Post #28 - July 28th, 2010, 1:43 pmAn interesting discussion has come up in another, non-food-related message board I belong to concerning the genesis of "Greek style chili" and the Coney dog. It seems there are at least two places that predate Empress in Cincinnati that serve these items: Rudy's in Toledo (established 1920) and Coney Island Hot Dogs, established in 1919. What I don't know is whether Rudy's and Coney Island Hot Dogs served the canonical Coney dog or had what is identified as the peculiar Cincinnati or Greek-style chili from the moment they opened their doors, or whether this came back to them via Tom Kiradjieff's influence in Cincinnati. Any food historians know anything about this? It seems to be firmly established that Tom Kiradjieff is the progenitor of this particular style of chili (and the dog associated with it), but these two dog stands in Toledo appear to predate Empress and possibly (depending on what they were serving in 1919 and 1920) have been serving this food before Tom.
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Post #29 - July 28th, 2010, 8:57 pmFurthermore, it looks like Coney Island restaurant in Detroit opened up in 1917, so I'm not exactly sure how the Empress chili guy can get credit for inventing the Coney.
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Post #30 - July 28th, 2010, 9:22 pmHere are my posts on some pre-1920 Coney doggeries:
Coney Island Hot Dog (1919), Toledo OH
Lafayette Coney Island and American Coney Island (1917), Detroit MI
Coney Island Lunch (1915), Kalamazoo MI
Todoroff's Coney Island (1914), Jackson MI
