Dream Kitchen

I'm looking for suggestions. I'm not made of money, but I'm planning to drop a large wad of dough on a new kitchen, added onto the back of my house. Kitchen+mud room+pantry will be about 400 square feet.

Things on our list:
Side-by-side fridges made to pretend they're built-ins at 1/3 the cost
48" pro cooktop with 6 burners plus griddle (grills belong outdoors)
2 30" gas ovens
2 dishwashers
marble surface for baking
lots more electrical outlets and circuits than our current kitchen (the kitchen lights, microwave, dining room, garage door opener and front house lights all share a circuit currently)

A wok burner is under consideration, as is a warming drawer (it's been suggested for proofing bread, as well as holding food for parties)

Suggestions for countertop surfaces, lights, cabinets, flooring are welcome. I'll post progress here once we really get started.

JoelF,

My 2 cents:

If the "marble surface" is for rolling out pastry, you might find it useful to simply keep a slab of marble in the freezer which you can haul out and place on top of the counter. It is a pleasure to roll out pie dough, puff pastry, etc. on a cold surface, although the slab is very heavy. I keep mine in the extra freezer in the garage.

A wok burner belongs outside with the grill. A kitchen wok burner can't come close to putting out the BTU's that an outdoor one can.

I've got a six-burner gas cooktop. Viking sells griddles that you simply put on top of the burners. I have two griddles which cover 4 of the burners, giving me a large surface for pancakes for the whole family. Much better than a dedicated, small griddle.

As far as countertops and cabinets, you can never have enough. And the bigger a hood fan you have, the better. Those downdraft ones can't compare to overhead ventilation for reducing airborne grease.

Bill,
Thanks for the tips.

I pretty much agree on the wok ring: the Thermador cooktop we're looking at has 15000BTU burners, and the dedicated wok burners I've seen mostly top out at 20000. This hardly seems worth the extra $1000 and space to install one, when I can get a turkey fryer/crab boil burner for under $100 on sale.

I definitely agree about fans/hoods: a friend of mine put his cooktop on the island and used a downdraft, which was pretty much useless. What galls me is that the island-style hoods can cost as much or more than the cooktops!

MrsF is pretty adamant about something stone in the counter for pastry -- a small slab in the freezer is interesting, but when making a big batch of cinnamon rolls or working with phyllo, a portable slab is going to be too small. Thanks for reminding me about chilling: one thing we'd thought about is running the cold water pipes back and forth under the slab.

I'm not completely sold on the built-in griddle -- we may scale back to just a six-burner cooktop, for space and cost. It does provide an extra low-heat simmer spot, though (although the Thermador has 375BTU ultra-low settings).

JoelF,

One other thing that has been extremely valuable: Any shelves in undercounter cabinets should be roll out, not just just part way, but all the way. No more kneeling on the floor pulling everything out to search for the item in the back.

Back on the topic of the ventilation hood: IMHO the hood should cover the entire cooking surface. The most frequently used front burners are the ones that launch the most airborne grease. Once a year (I should do it more often,) I get under the hood and remove the grease traps in the fans and am amazed how much grease there is.

Julia Child had an undercounter refrigerator with the top removed to keep the counter cold. Not sure how practical this is, especially if you only need a cold counter every once in a while. If you have a marble countertop, you can place igloo cold packs on the marble for a few hours before using.

Sounds like you'll have a great kitchen!!!!

Bill/SFNM

Where are you planning on getting the cabinets and stone? I can give you some adivce on those if you like. I was a kitchen designer for 10 years and know a few people.

I'll second the roll out shelves. Very helpful. In reality though I prefer drawer units to roll out shelves, less work to open and better at holding stuff in place. Plus, banks of drawers are more pleasing to me aesthetically.

I am a huge fan of Thermador, great great products you will be happy with. One thing I recommend is that you use an external blower unit. You get the same CFM but at a fraction of the noise level which can be considerable on the highter powered units. In addition I would hook that up to a rheostat that is wall mounted next to the stove, they work better than the little switch on the hood in most cases.

Without knowing what style you are looking for, finishes are hard to recommend. An Arts and Crafts kitchen is going to have different finish requireements from a French Country or a modern German style. I like granite and butcherblock, cork floors, and colours in my kitchens, ymmv. If you've had plans drawn up I'd be happy to look them over and offer suggestions, pm me for info.

Unless you do lots of entertaining, I'd pass on the warming drawer. Your two 30" ovens ought to take some of that load. Also, be careful on the low end BTUs of your range: I've had Viking, Dacor, and Wolf, and only the Dacor did a good, consistent job on the lowest setting (didn't burn cream sauces). Bill's right on the exhaust hood: go for high ft^3/min flow. Don't forget phone, cable, CAT5, etc, when you're putting in wires. Oh, and leave enough pantry space for yourself and tall space to store trays and baking sheets on end.

Hi,

I also have a piece of marble cut to either sit in the refrigerator or freezer.

What I don't understand is why you want two gas ovens, rather than electric with the favored type being convection (where you can turn on and off the convection). The few gas ovens I worked with in the past have always had uneven heat. Also the most dramatic kitchen incident I personally witnessed involved a gas oven: grease from the goose tipped to the bottom for instant ignition of 5 foot flames shooting out of the oven.

In my kitchen, I have an all-refrigerator (Subzero) and an all-freezer (not Subzero). If I had my druthers, the 20+ cubic feet freezer would reside in the basement for opening a couple times of week. Instead, it is opened several times a day to collect food and ice. I would get an under the counter freezer for ice, ice cream and other short term storage foods. Alternatively, a 48-inch wide 1/3 freezer, 2/3 refrigerator.

I see there are beginning to be more cabinet depth refrigerators. Your double refrigerators, are they all refrigerator or refrigerator-freezer? If you prefer all-refrigerator, there are not too many choices. What model are you considering?

At the moment, my kitchen floor is being ripped up with a new floor covering to be considered once it is removed. Octarine --- how is the maintenance of cork floors?

Regards,

Cathy2 wrote:What I don't understand is why you want two gas ovens, rather than electric with the favored type being convection (where you can turn on and off the convection).

This is a MrsF non-negotiable. I meddle not in the ways of bakers.

Cathy2 wrote:...If I had my druthers, the 20+ cubic feet freezer would reside in the basement for opening a couple times of week... I would get an under the counter freezer for ice, ice cream and other short term storage foods.

Interesting idea. We've got a small vertical freezer in the utility room, this was possibly a replacement for both the old freezer in the fridge as well as the utility room one. We'll consider this as an option.

Cathy2 wrote:Your double refrigerators, are they all refrigerator or refrigerator-freezer?

They're Frigidaire PLFU1777D/PLRU1777D matched 32" fridge and freezer each. http://www.frigidaire.com/products/refr ... _twins.asp

Cathy2 wrote:...If I had my druthers, the 20+ cubic feet freezer would reside in the basement for opening a couple times of week... I would get an under the counter freezer for ice, ice cream and other short term storage foods.

JoelF wrote:Interesting idea. We've got a small vertical freezer in the utility room, this was possibly a replacement for both the old freezer in the fridge as well as the utility room one. We'll consider this as an option.

This doesn't necessarily work as well as you think it ought to, unless you're really organized. This was the option we had (until it died), big freezer in the basement and regular refrigerator/freezer in the kitchen.

But thing were always getting lost in the big freezer. I'd put stuff down there and forget about it. So I started putting more things in the upstairs freezer, where I'd come across them regularly, and it soon was overfilled.

Now, a really organized person would keep a dated list of what's in the basement freezer posted in the kitchen, but I'm not that organized.

LAZ wrote:But thing were always getting lost in the big freezer. I'd put stuff down there and forget about it.

Once a month I have "No Shopping" week where I force myself to make meals only with ingredients we already have in the house. The challenge is fun and has been the source of some my best meals and nothing ever gets lost in the back of the freezer or pantry.

Bill/SFNM

Cork is a very common flooring material in comercial applications so I wouldn't worry about it's durability in the home.

In september the demolition begins!

We've gone with the Subzero 601 all refrigerator, Subzero Combo reefer -freezer- icemaker under counter unit, Wolf 48 with grill (a friend has the griddle and four kids and they use the griddle once or twice a month. And it gets discolored very, very quickly. I bought a cheap nonstick griddle that fits over two burners for <$20 for pancakes et. al.)

Wolf and Thermador were #1 and #2 most recommended by people we know who cook and kitchen designers. Not much price differential; wife loves the Wolf red knobs

For wok burner outside is the only way. I have an Eastman Big Kahuna; fifty bucks on Amazon, 55,000 BTU! That's 1/3 the output of a typical home furnace. Nice sturdy stand and the propane tank nestles comfortably underneath. Sounds like a small jet engine when it's running.

Understand the baker specs the ovens, but electric are much better than long ago and they offer self-cleaning (worth it right there imho).

Miele dishwashers - we chose these because you can replace the stainless panel with one to match your cabinet choice and it won't stick out 3/4" past all your other cabs. All the American dishwashers cannot be made to fit flush with your cabinets. It might not matter for you, but we wanted them to blend in. Considered Fisher & Paykel two drawer unit as well

Absolutely external blower. 1500 cfm. Downdrafts do not work; have one now. Looking forward to beating it with a baseball bat a'la "Office Space". Hood really should cover the whole range / cooktop.

We're using soapstone for the majority of the counters (marble and 4 inch end-grain butcherblock for others). This stuff is great to look at and is nearly indestructible. Hot pots, acids or bases no problem. It's the stuff that chemistry lab countertops are made of...very tradional Arts & Crafts material. Having the main sink made out of it as well.

Consider a pot filler (if your cooktop is against a wall) and water filtration systems before the plumbers arrive

For flooring, we chose wide maple with a light stain. We're putting in radiant underfloor heat. Nice warm floors (and toes) in the winter. Also considered bamboo -

Lighting - www.rejuvenation.com from victorian to modern, great stuff and most of it very reasonably priced. Great selection of drawer and bin pulls too.

Don't forget in-wall speakers and their connections, coaxial cable, cat5. Found out that our village requires new electrical circuits and specifies the minimum number of outlets per ft^2 of kitchen.

If you haven't consulted with a kitchen designer, consider it. We talked to a few and chose one. They can be a great help. I didn't have a great experience with the designers at the big box stores - they're (imho) limited to what the store can source...If you'd like the name of the designer we went with pm me.

Marc

Re: griddles discolouring, that's what they are supposed to do It's called seasoning. IMHO, a griddle is far far more versatile indoors than a grill will ever be, especially if you have an outdoor grill. Anything you would do on the grill you can do better using the broiler. Plus it will be quiter, cleaner and more controllable.

Griddles are great, they only thing I would use in that configuration. You can use it to cook meat, burgers and veggies, make quesadillas and potstickers, use it as a pot warmer, the list goes on.

mchodera wrote:...(a friend has the griddle and four kids and they use the griddle once or twice a month. And it gets discolored very, very quickly...)

The Wolf and Vikings have steel surfaces, the Thermador has a nonstick coating, and can be removed from the cooktop for cleaning. Another reason I didn't like the Wolf and Vikings are the drip pan drawer beneath the burners and griddle. Ick. Cleanup would be a real mess. The Thermador has sealed burners and a little basin at the front of the griddle which can be removed for cleaning.

Understand the baker specs the ovens, but electric are much better than long ago and they offer self-cleaning (worth it right there imho).

I've tried, I've tried. It'd save cash and space (there aren't any double gas ovens -- two singles take up a lot more space). If nothing else, there tends to be more space in a gas oven, there's less space taken up by heating elements, fans, etc.

Miele dishwashers

But the price, man! I can buy two decent US-style ones for one Miele.

We're using soapstone for the majority of the counters

I haven't seen that yet, does it resist stains better than granite? Right now I'm leaning toward Silestone or one of its imitators. Better durability than granite for a similar price, more color choices.

Soapstone doesn't discolor, period. It has a matte surface which is usually sealed and enhanced with a coating of food-grade mineral oil. It gets to looking a little glossy after four or five applications (once every other month) and is resistant to scratching and chipping. It's still used in chem labs for the simple reason that it doesn't react with anything for the most part. Hydrofluoric acid, probably, but not even Ferran Adria has found a use for it in his advanced cuisine.

Silestone is ok, but it ends up looking, well, like a manufatured product. It's a question of esthetics - prices are nearly identical. Granite is a bit more sensitive than Silestone or Corian, marble is much, much worse.

Viking ranges were dreamt up by an upscale tract home developer. Wolf has a lineage of restaurant equipment. Viking's not in the top three (or five) imho. Can't go wrong with Thermador, unless you like standing on open oven doors...

I hadn't noticed the dimensions of gas vs electric ovens. If it accomodates a standard large baking pan, I'm ok with it.

Cleanup of the drip pan is not a prob for me, the utility and construction of the range is. Whilst living in NYC, one salesman demonstrated the frame construction of the Wolf by opening the oven door and standing on it. Besides that, my lovely wife loves the red knobs. I just like to cook on them.

Yep, Miele and Bosch and Fischer and Paykel are dear, but if you that esthetic is important to you (admittedly it's minor), but you're building a dream kitchen, aim high. There's nothing wrong with the other brands unless you're obsessively focused on the details, like me...

Grill vs griddle, the great debate . There's no right answer, only opinions. There are no wrong answers...

I'm a dedicated outdoor griller with gas and charcoal, bbq-er and smoker, plus I have an outdoor wok burner and have been known to bury a kimchee pot or two in the past few years. But for me, if I want a few cebollitos or grilled aubergine and courgette to accompany dinner, and I often do, I'll take the grill anyday.

Grill marks indoors, someting no broiler can provide. No fuss, no ten to thirty minute wait, no trip outside in Chicago's -20 to +105 cold / heat.

The griddle imho is grease collector and a poor substitute for a french top. If only I had the room for a 60" range, French top and six burners.

Hate to try and explain the French top to a potential future owner, though.

Think about the house, it's architecture and your personal taste. Maybe enlist the help of someone who thinks about this for at least forty hours a week for forty-eight weeks a year. It makes a difference.

All the best,

Marc

Heh -- standing on open oven doors doesn't get thought about in our house. Everybody's at least 5'10", and everybody but MrsF is over 6'4" -- reaching the cabinets is a no-brainer, especially in our not-quite 8', soffited current kitchen. With the 9' or 10' ceilings proposed for the new space, I still don't forsee problems since the cabs will still only go up to 8', most likely.

You've gotten so many great suggestions, but I'm going to add my two cents worth. I redid my kitchen a few years ago--love most of it, would redo some, but then you never know till you really live with it.
Floors, I did wood. I love the look of tile, but I'm in my kitchen at least 3 hours a day and tile is just plain hard on the feet and back.
Warming drawer--I have one and really love it.
Ovens--I have 1 gas and 1 electric, which for baking is so much more even and in the summer doesn't heat up the house nearly as much as gas.
Pantry--I have a very large walk-in which I wouldn't trade for anything, but I'm not tall and have always had a hard time with upper cabinets.
Here are a few other things I really like and are very useful. Really high facet for large pans and never being in the way, a large oversize sink, under cabinet lighting, spot lighting, large windows that crank open, some open shelves for cookbooks, lots of outlets in the pantry for appliances, seperate area for micro, built in wine rack, and a desk. There are some things I wish I had put in, but that'll be in the next house! I'd love to have undercounter refrig. drawers, granite counter tops( don't know about soapstone, I've heard they scratch easily, but sure are pretty), a small wine refrig, a really powerful outside vented stove hood, a coffee center, two seperate garbage centers, for reg and recyle,a fireplace and the motor of our frig(which can be done on some models) in the basement so when it runs, I don't have to listen to it!
Good luck and enjoy it when it's all done!

Well for a small kitchen you got your self a good plan, i specially like the frigidaire parts idea. The fridge is the hardest appliance to deal whit in kitchen, much space consuming , but you have it all figured out. Nice thing, I'll seriously look into it.

I think JoelF finished his kitchen about a year ago

Tem,
Actually, it was officially done in February of this year -- see here for the whole magillah.

End results and commentary:

• Fridge: Side-by-side Whirlpools are very nice. I miss thru-the-door water only because the sink is so far from the cold source that it takes time to chill out, but otherwise the space is great
• Cooktop: Thermador 6 burner+griddle. We use the griddle often, wonderful for pancakes, quesadillas and grilled cheese, although it does take a bit of time to warm up. Very please with the power for wokking although for Xmas I got a propane Big Kahuna burner, which I've yet to try out. The matching Thermador Island Hood is terrific, although a bear to install (see the Journal for horror stories), and nearly as expensive as the cooktop itself (wall hoods are much cheaper, and have more options in style)
• Oven: Double 30" GE electric. Gas ovens just cost a fortune, and don't come in double. MrsF was finally convinced by the price and the Proof mode, and we're starting to really like convection
• Countertop: Zodiaq quartz "cultured stone" by DuPont. Hard as granite, more color choices, doesn't need sealing (although supposedly a bit more prone to chipping). Turned out to be as cheap as Corian, and much nicer.
• Cabinets: Thomasville thru Home Depot in "Cider" tone. Very pleased, although our layout resulted in not much high cab near our cooktop, meaning I've got to bend down for spices, etc.
• Flooring: 20" tile. Try not to schedule tile installation when it's 95 degrees out. A couple minor alignment problems due to contractor's failure to follow through on time committments resulting in having to work around some areas and come back later
• Lighting: Kichler fixtures are very nice, consistent look throughout. Only catch to those is finding globe-shaped candelabra base CFT bulbs -- they don't exist so far as I can tell

Overall, very happy with what I have. There's things I'd have done differently if I had different space to work with, but we did a great job.
Lots of pictures on the link above.

Stay tuned. My story is half written.