Antonius wrote:a long series of sophmoric Soprano-Mafia-Jersey jokes. How pathetic.

I finally watched this episode last night, and I did find the constant Soprano references ridiculous and eye-rolling-ly annoying. Bourdain was acting as if New Jersey Italian culture didn't exist before HBO started showing the Sopranos and defining mafia culture for us. Dumb.

On the other hand, I found the Bobolink Dairy segment completely charming.

Best,
Michael

eatchicago wrote:On the other hand, I found the Bobolink Dairy segment completely charming.

Michael,

Agree completely, I really enjoyed the Bobolink Dairy segment. I've been following Jonathan and Nina White's cheese making since they were Egg Dairy Farm in upstate NY. Though it's rare I actually get to taste their cheese as there does not seem to be a local source for Bobolink's products.

I thought the deep fried hot dog, The Ripper, looked interesting and, IIRC, Hot Doug's has one on offer. I've been meaning to try one since I saw a Ripper on the PBS hot dog show, but never seem to actually eat one.

In general I quite like Bourdain's No Reservations and am looking forward to future shows.

Enjoy,
Gary

Hello All,

Let me preface this post by saying that I have been a long time lurker on this site and have found it an excellent resource. Most of the posts that I read on this board are helpful and informative but I truly take exception to the post written by Antonius regarding Anthony Bourdain's NJ show. I also believe that this may not be a bad thing considering the fact that it prompted to make my first post and come out from the shadows.

"The ethnic group that is most prominently and regularly free game to obscene stereotyping and abuse in this country is the Italians."

Do you honestly think that this is true, or are you being just a bit ethnocentric? As an American woman of Irish descent I constantly see the stereotypical druken Irish male beating his long suffering wife and children played out in the cinema and on television. I think every ethnic group has an issue with being free game to obscene stereotyping. I also believe that if you are a part of that particular group you recognize and are a little more sensitive to it, but this is just one girls opinion.

"with the cooperation of that professional asshole and prostitute Mario Batali"

That is a pretty harsh comment. Do you know Mr. Batali? What is the basis for this opinion? I have no relationship with Mr. Batali but I did eat at his Babbo restaurant in New York a few years back. I know that this does not make me an expert on Malto but I would like to share with you my experience with him. He was hands on popping in and out of the kitchen throughout the meal. He actually came to our table to talk to us and see if we had enjoyed our meal. I haven't seen many celeb chefs do this (I have eaten at Trotters at the kitchen table and wasn't treated to more than a pretty cold hello) We had an excellent sommelier. I cannot for the life of me remeber his name but he was equal to the description of Alpana that GWiv give in his post regarding everest. His staff from the front end to back were truly warm and inviting. In my opinion happy staff usually indicate good management/ownership. So I am really intrested to hear why you have developed such a caustic opinion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Menu
Asparagus w/poached egg
My sister and I split an order of the spaghettini w/lobster
I had the osso bucco for my entree
I do not remember dessert so it must have been pretty uneventful

[/quote]

smcmahon wrote:"The ethnic group that is most prominently and regularly free game to obscene stereotyping and abuse in this country is the Italians."

Do you honestly think that this is true, or are you being just a bit ethnocentric? As an American woman of Irish descent I constantly see the stereotypical druken Irish male beating his long suffering wife and children played out in the cinema and on television. I think every ethnic group has an issue with being free game to obscene stereotyping. I also believe that if you are a part of that particular group you recognize and are a little more sensitive to it, but this is just one girls opinion.

Yeah, I think you're pretty much spot on. Members of any ethnic group are generally more attuned to that group's common stereotypes. I don't really belong to any identifiable ethnic group (unless generic midwestern WASP without the P counts), but I really don't believe Italians or Irish get stereotyped and "abused" the most.

I'm not sure who does, but I'd guess it's not either of those. Maybe jewish-americans, arab-americans, or african-americans. Or native americans. Maybe we should commission a study.

I've downloaded but haven't watched the episode in question. Perhaps I'll add more once I have.

Ed, please be aware that in these politically charged times, with heightened sensitivities to religion, ethnicity, class, and socioeconomic status, "WASP" is a term of derision and considered offensive by many people with advanced degrees in the humanities. The preferred term is "Saxon dog."

gleam wrote:... I really don't believe Italians or Irish get stereotyped and "abused" the most.

Ed, I think you misunderstood Antonius’s comment. It’s not a question of which ethnic (etc.) group is the most oppressed. Instead it’s this: if you point out something which is offensive to, say, Arab-Americans, there is a large group of well-meaning, liberal sorts in this country who will respond positively and say, yes, of course, that is offensive and has no place in public discourse. But those very same people do not see a problem with the endless stream of Mafia jokes that people of Italian descent in this country endure. When Italian-Americans say, “It is offensive to equate Italians and mobsters,” they are told, “No, it’s not.”

I believe Antonius is saying that Italian Americans are among the very few groups who get this reaction from otherwise progressive and well intentioned folk, this denial that there could be anything hurtful in the way their group is so often depicted in the media.

Hi again,

Wow two posts in one day from a first timer!

Just to clarify, I am a white female living in america, I do not feel very opressed. My lot in life is not bad at all. I am also a social worker that works w/mentally retarded and mentally ill adults so I know and I have seen stereotyping and abuse of a particularly cruel sort. I was just trying to illustrate that I seem to notice the Irish thing more because I am of Irish descent as where I am probably not that sensitive to noticing the stereotyping of other ethnicities. I think this might be the case with many people and I do not think that any ethnicity has the lock on the most stereotyped (well, maybe the saxon dogs )

I do not know if I will get to see the next episode because I do not have cable (I caught the last one by chance while dog sitting at a friends house.) but I will try to get someone to tape it for me because I am interested in seeing what he will do next.

Amata wrote:But those very same people do not see a problem with the endless stream of Mafia jokes that people of Italian descent in this country endure. When Italian-Americans say, “It is offensive to equate Italians and mobsters,” they are told, “No, it’s not.”

I believe Antonius is saying that Italian Americans are among the very few groups who get this reaction from otherwise progressive and well intentioned folk, this denial that there could be anything hurtful in the way their group is so often depicted in the media.

If that was antonius's intended meaning, it makes a lot more sense. Clearly he needs to start an Italian-American Anti Defamation League.

Antonius wrote:the ethnic group that is most prominently and regularly free game to obscene stereotyping and abuse in this country is the Italians

I think I had missed "free game". Even so, I'm still not sure I'd agree.

And do those well meaning liberals really disagree that it's offensive to equate Italians and mobsters? I haven't met any who would espouse that position. That being said, I think the level of abuse against Italian-Americans has something to do with it -- they haven't seen the violence or threats of violence that arab/african/etc americans have in the past few decades.

Certainly italian americans are far more respected as an ethnic group now than they were one hundred years ago. Same is true of the irish. Certainly it doesn't help things that some italian-americans exploit or embrace the popularity of the organized crime culture.

smcmahon:

Your citation of me is misleadingly incomplete.

Antonius wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again: the ethnic group that is most prominently and regularly free game to obscene stereotyping and abuse in this country is the Italians -- if I'm wrong, that's more depressing than I care to imagine.

I stand by the limited claim I make. There are other groups that may actually get a more balanced treatment in the media but then in day-to-day life are still more broadly and significantly discriminated against. But with regard to stereotyping in the media, I know that linking of Italians to organised crime is constant and so much so that most people don't even think of that linking as a negative and harmful stereotype. Of course, I'm especially sensitive to prejudicial treatment and negative stereotyping of Italians, since I am Italian, but I'm no hypocrite and I reject such treatment of any group. And when I said "if I'm wrong, that's more depressing than I care to imagine", that was an acknowledgement of the fact that my own perspective is different from those of others with different backgrounds.

There are negative depictions of other groups in the American media but in most cases, there is either some real balance in the overall picture presented or at least recourse to complaint that is then fairly generally accepted and applauded by reasonable people. The fact is it is inconceivable that a show such as Bourdain's piece on New Jersey, could revel in such negative stereotypes of some other ethnic group without being broadly and loudly declaimed, but somehow, in this particular case, I sense that many find it neither out of the ordinary nor objectionable. I find it exceedingly depressing that while I cannot imagine why Bourdain, Batali and writing staff thought the long string of Jersey-Italian-mob jokes were appropriate to a discussion of food in that state, many others cannot imagine a discussion of Italians and New Jersey without those things being linked to the mob: that's negative stereotyping. And it seems some object more strenuously to my complaint than to the gratuitous mob element included in the show. What does one make of that?

With regard to my comment on Batali, I apologise for offending your sensibilities but I was rather angry at the time of writing and, in retrospect, should perhaps have waited a bit before posting.

To return to the topic of food, I often hear Batali's restaurants are very good or better; his cooking show -- specifically the second incarnation of Molto Mario -- has, in my view, some real and very considerable strengths. His historical and cultural comments about the food are, however, often laughably off the mark but unfortunately rather seriously offered (and perhaps taken) - he is a very accomplished and knowledgeable cook but with regard to history and culture, culinary and otherwise, he is quite ignorant. His Mediterranean show was an embarrassment even to the Food Network and his Mario Eats Italy show spent far too much time playing up the comedic duo format, though some of the scenery shown and some of the food discussed was worthwhile. But alas, to my mind, his contribution to the Bourdain show demonstrates a good measure of the qualites indicated in my negative characterisation. Perhaps it was the result of a brief lapse in judgement but, in light of the final line of the show, I think that clearly wasn't the case.

The sad thing is, they could easily have spent more time on genuinely interesting food topics, such as they did in the section on the dairy farm mentioned by EC above, but instead they chose -- at least in some people's view -- to waste a lot of time on ethnic 'humour'.

Ach na faiceam-sa leithid sud a rithist.*

Antonius

'But let me not see the likes of that again.'

You know, as a German-American, growing up with Colonel Klink and Sgt. Schultz as my only television role models, you can never know the pain I feel. (You see nussing!) Seriously, I cannot imagine what we will gain from determining which ethnic group is the worst off, so let's not try.

Since the Bourdain show has now equated New Jersey with the Mob and revealed the astounding fact that Iceland is cold, dark, and alcoholic, I think it's safe to say that future episodes will reveal that Mexico is hot and the people wear big hats, that the French can be a bit rude, and that it rains a lot in Seattle and they drink a lot of coffee. Thus does television keep us all informed about our world, on the very highest levels. One may, perhaps, lament that this is so, but surely one cannot express surprise.

But then the most damning comment is that Food Network has plenty of room for Bourdain clowning about as an Ugly American (and that is, perhaps, the group he insults the most) and no room for his genuinely intelligent and interesting show on El Bulli, which they have never aired.

Mike G wrote:But then the most damning comment is that Food Network has plenty of room for Bourdain clowning about as an Ugly American (and that is, perhaps, the group he insults the most) and no room for his genuinely intelligent and interesting show on El Bulli, which they have never aired.

Except for the fact that this show is on the Travel Channel. Listen, as a Jewish American, I'm plenty offended by the fact that you are insulting the media, which we all own. I've got a cousin who is a lawyer. He can sue these people and I can get him to do it whosale.

D'oh! You're right, although one of the problems with the Travel Channel is that it's so often about food, and one of the problems with Food Network is that it's so often about travel.

The ethnic group that is considered even fairer game than the others previously enumerated are mentioned and illustrated by the title of the first show.
Anyway lighten up, they are trying to be entertaining, not accurate. As another former Jerseyan, I am not upset that so much time was spent in Sopranoland and Asbury Park, but the Tony and the Boss (AP is the subject of "My City in Ruins" not Atlantic City or NYC) tie-ins are recognizeable to the world. The food and venue choices though may lead you to believe that New Jersey is the fairest game for being derogatory.
Even finding a Howard Johnson must have been a task, much less ordering a grilled cheese sandwich(even though Charley Trotter says his favorite late night food is grilled cheese with giardinera)-it was the only part I disliked.
There are lots of more favorable spots and foods that could have been chosen, but they would not have fit so smoothly into the narrative they were spinning. Moreover it is hard to overestimate the influence of Italian on food in NJ, although I would have liked a spot on a Jewish deli and a better seafood venue. But "whatareyagonnado." Besides if the rest of world wants to think NJ ends at Exit 9 and the Asbury Park exit of the Parkway that okay with me too.
Overall I have found each show to be quite entertaining, able to engage and enrage the home team.
Weren't rippers mentioned in one of the Food Network compilation shows?

Well, if the first week was (just barely) saved by Louisa taking Tony to the market, and last week's a total bore (I missed Iceland), last night's episode was actually pretty good. I know the constant Bond references were lame, but they fit (kinda) in the theme of the program, and if we learned hardly anything beyond some people will eat squizzel (porquipine) if necessary, the visuals were outstanding. And, most important, you actually wanted to be there too--so unlike last week's Jersey episiode.

Rob

Speaking of stereotypes, last night's Simpsons episode left no stereotype untarnished (except for the Italians, interestingly enough). It was hilarious.

Finally watched the episode tonight.

Let me tell you, I'm outraged -- outraged! -- at the constant slanderous association of Japanese people with Hello Kitty.

Seriously, though, he spent nearly as much time joking about Hello Kitty as he did about organized crime. If I were japanese I bet I'd be offended.

By and large I thought it was a nice episode. His fondness for his home state came through very well, and I think the end sequence made it clear that the entire thing was very much tongue in cheek.

And it was cool to see Mario Batali not wearing shorts.

In any case, it was, to my mind, identical in tone to the Iceland episode: Let's make fun of Iceland, but also show everyone what a cool, great place it can be. Which is pretty much Tony Bourdain's theme throughout all of his books and shows. And what makes them such a pleasure to read watch.

Judging by Antonius's comments I had expected the entire show to be one long Soprano's reference. Not so.

I also watched the Vietnam episode tonight, and it was perhaps the best of the bunch. He does seem to be hitting a stride, although I don't know what order the episodes were filmed in.

It is amazing how similar this show is to "A Cook's Tour". Which isn't a bad thing.

gleam wrote:I also watched the Vietnam episode tonight, and it was perhaps the best of the bunch. He does seem to be hitting a stride, although I don't know what order the episodes were filmed in.

It is amazing how similar this show is to "A Cook's Tour". Which isn't a bad thing.

Unfortunately, there's only one more show.

Vital Information wrote:Well, if the first week was (just barely) saved by Louisa taking Tony to the market, and last week's a total bore (I missed Iceland), last night's episode was actually pretty good. I know the constant Bond references were lame, but they fit (kinda) in the theme of the program, and if we learned hardly anything beyond some people will eat squizzel (porquipine) if necessary, the visuals were outstanding. And, most important, you actually wanted to be there too--so unlike last week's Jersey episiode.

Rob

Whaddya mean just barely saved?? The shows are airing in the order they were shot. And new episodes start again October 3rd with Sicily. There will be 13 episodes in this first season.

Louisa Chu wrote:The shows are airing in the order they were shot. And new episodes start again October 3rd with Sicily. There will be 13 episodes in this first season.

This is exactly what I was talking about at the outset of this thread. I think the shows have gotten progressively better as the weeks went on (offensive ethnic content excepted for those who care about such things*). I'm very glad to hear that more episodes are scheduled. Having this break is a wise move by the producers. I'm sure they will take their "notes" into consideration when shooting the additional 8 episodes which should result in a better, more "polished" show. BTW, I really enjoyed the Vietnam show.

* I'm going to see The Aristocrats tonight, which shoud pretty much tell you where I stand on such issues

stevez wrote:

Louisa Chu wrote:The shows are airing in the order they were shot. And new episodes start again October 3rd with Sicily. There will be 13 episodes in this first season.

This is exactly what I was talking about at the outset of this thread. I think the shows have gotten progressively better as the weeks went on (offensive ethnic content excepted for those who care about such things*). I'm very glad to hear that more episodes are scheduled. Having this break is a wise move by the producers. I'm sure they will take their "notes" into consideration when shooting the additional 8 episodes which should result in a better, more "polished" show. BTW, I really enjoyed the Vietnam show.

* I'm going to see The Aristocrats tonight, which shoud pretty much tell you where I stand on such issues

Their notes? I think Louisa will have them all reading LTHForum.com. These are the notes they really will be taking into consideration!!

(well they should... )

A number of people have expressed a particular appreciation for the show on Vietnam; I too found that episode to have relatively a lot of interesting (esp. visual) material and not too much nonsense. I also felt that in the show on Paris, the interesting -- both visually and with regard to content -- vastly outweighed the uninteresting or silly. Indeed, the Paris show was -- not surprisingly, given Bourdain's French background -- marked by a particular enthusiasm of genuine appreciation, which made the interviews and discussions of real stuff all the more engaging.

In each of the other two (I recently saw more of the New Jersey episode though missed the opening again) there were definitely some good bits (e.g. the Bobolink visit) but to my mind, Bourdain is wasting too much of the little time he has in each show on juvenile humour (as opposed to his more entertaining sarcastic quips), as in the case of the very lame James Bond theme -- one joke would have been fine and funny but there is nothing so bad as a joke that's pushed past its use (N.B. that bit occurred in and detracted from, I believe, an otherwise really interesting sequence, thanks to the place visited and people involved). Similarly unnecessary but in addition both tasteless, very childish and, for some at least, offensive was the "gun and cannoli" skit with Batali. As I mentioned above, that entire final portion of the Jersey show was a particularly grand waste of time, since they clearly didn't spend much energy figuring out what sort of Italian place(s) they should go to. Picking a completely pedestrian, large-scale bakery such as they did was, at best, disappointing and inclines me to wonder more generally about the quality of their research. There is no doubt in my mind that Louisa Chu added vastly more to the episode she was in than did the bloated celebrity attitude of Batali, who incidentally is not a native of the state and, judging from his contribution to the discussion of Italian food there, not particularly well-informed in this regard.

Clearly, footage such as the godfatherly hit-scene or some of stupider bits in the Icelandic show is designed to appeal to the more juvenile element of the audience; alas, it apparently does.

Antonius

Antonius wrote:Clearly, footage such as the godfatherly hit-scene or some of stupider bits in the Icelandic show is designed to appeal to the more juvenile element of the audience; alas, it apparently does.

Antonius

I think you'll see less and less of this type of stuff in future episodes. I agree that although funny (or at least attempting to be funny), it largely detracted from the content. It's the type of thing that seems like a good idea at the time they are producing the show, but clearly doesn't work on air. The bits tend to fall flat and obviously are found found offensive by some. Those are they type of "notes" that a good producer would take note of and fine tune. It appears they may have already started doing it, judging by the Vietnam show.

stevez wrote:I think you'll see less and less of this type of stuff in future episodes... ...Those are they type of "notes" that a good producer would take note of and fine tune. It appears they may have already started doing it, judging by the Vietnam show.

I hope you're right. In each show, there have been some segments that were really worthwhile, where one either learned about something new or got a different perspective on something one already knew. I don't think it unreasonable for the core audience for this kind of show to want more of the good and unique and less of the commonplace and juvenile.

To pick up on a comment Mike G made, perhaps up above in this thread, many of these kinds of shows and, for that matter, stations, suffer from the idea that adding some sort of contentless 'entertainment' will be all good, insofar as it will draw in a broader audience. But the risk is that one ends up with something that is neither fish nor fowl and ultimately not sufficiently satisfying to either the enthusiast audience or the casual audience. For FN, the results are clearly mixed, with some successes but some real failures too (from the standpoint of the serious food enthusiast, I mean).

I wonder whether Gary the Beancounter Bettman's new-look NHL will be like this: having tarted it up to be more like arena football, he hopes he'll win over some massive portion of the American public. I doubt that will ever happen and I think it more likely that old-school fans will be less thrilled and less inclined to buy special and very expensive cable packages to watch 8-8 ties end in a shoot-out...

Anyway, especially given the overt marketing of Bourdain's show as being something very unlike the Food Network's comœdia de cuisine, it seems that they are to some degree at least at cross-purposes then to bring in Batali to yuck it up with junior-high humour.

Again, I hope you're right that the show will (continue to) develop in a good direction and pare down or remove the fluff. The best segments have been really good.

Antonius

I haven't seen the Vietnam ep yet, it's still waiting on my TiVo, but I'm not surprised he loved it; he fawned over the street and haute food in Hanoi in A Cook's Tour. Made me want to book a trip.

The Iceland show was pretty weak, I thought. Too much about the fermented shark, boring people, and how scrawny Tony is compared to the Icelandic Viking stock. It reminded me of the weaker episodes of A Cook's Tour where the theme seemed to be, "Let's humiliate Bourdain" -- shove him upriver in Cambodia, force-feed him vodka, etc. The best episodes of that were where he really enjoyed the food: the above mentioned Vietnam, and the French Laundry are two notables (coffee and cigarettes custard!?)

Does anyone (Louisa, maybe) know what order the first five episodes were shot in?

I got the impression that vietnam was shot right after Paris (I'm not sure why). Any idea what month he was in Jersey? Wasn't he in Paris in November?

Louisa posted earlier in the thread that they are being shown in the order in which they were shot. I think that is quite evident, as you can see the evolution in each episode.

Oops, musta missed that. Thanks.

Just watched the Paris episode and it's a lot better. It starts a little jokey but there's a real food culture that he loves for him to tear into (not surprisingly, when you consider what his restaurant is named, the market part-- with Louisa Chu!-- is a particular highlight) and this one comes much closer to the level of the Adria show than its predecessors. Of course, since it was on weeks ago and I have a backlog of tivo'd shows, you probably know all that already.

JoelF wrote:The Iceland show was pretty weak, I thought. Too much about the fermented shark, boring people, and how scrawny Tony is compared to the Icelandic Viking stock. It reminded me of the weaker episodes of A Cook's Tour where the theme seemed to be, "Let's humiliate Bourdain" -- shove him upriver in Cambodia, force-feed him vodka, etc.

I watched the Icelandic show last night, and was amazed by the vacuity, the intolerance, and the dumb-f*ck American attitudes expressed by this knucklehead. Here he is, a guest of some Icelandic organization, and he continually slams them, their appearance, their folkways, says their food is "stinky," and makes not even a token effort to appreciate it (and, yes, I think it would be possible to appreciate the food, however alien to his parochial tastes and odd it might sound to us).

I have yet to see any value in this guy's perspective on food, culture, or anything else.

Hammond