Orange Wine

Orange Wine

Last evening at House of Glunz (1206 North Wells Street), Barbara Glunz hosted several of us at a tasting of orange wines: 2004 Radikon Ribolla Gialla, 2006 Vadopivec Vitovska, and 2008 Movia Lunar.

This is some strange stuff: at times funky, with notes of sherry, mildly tannic, and as Alpana Singh noted, much like a red. (I asked her if she would be serving orange wine at The Boarding House, and she probably will; it’s a trend. At Telegraph Thursday night, fully one third of local hipsters – many of them women – had glasses of orange wine in front of them).

Orange wine, prepared with white grapes left in contact with the skin for up to several months, is sometimes intentionally oxidized (some are made in not-quite-air-tight amphorae), so they have notes of what, with other wines, might be considered faults.

They were, to me, strongly reminiscent of the vin jaune of the Jura, which are also intentionally oxidized for a very distinctive (and I have to believe somewhat difficult to control) flavor.

Add to the mix the fact that some orange wines are produced using a “wild fermentation” (leveraging the native yeasts in the air of Slovenia, Venezia, etc.), and you get a very different, unpredictable and freaky sip.

It was general consensus that the sausage Barbara Glunz served – a fatty thing coated in rosemary – paired very well with the orange wines. You need powerful flavors to stand up to this wine.

House of Glunz, a great Chicago resources for over a century, is resurrecting the side bar that was closed during Prohibition. Christopher Glunz, Barbara’s son, is going to be handling this side of the biz, and although it has a way to go, shall we say, before the scheduled July opening…



…this is going to be a fine place to have a drink and eat.

In the gorgeous dark shadowy tasting room in back of the retail store, there’s an old menu from the last time House of Glunz served food. I was intrigued by an olive and nut sandwich – Barbara Kuck, who I learned works at Glunz, told me this was standard “semi-fancy” food in the early part of the century. Also on this old menu: peanut butter and jelly sandwiches (5 cents) and caviar sandwiches (25 cents).

Thanks for posting about this...I'd never heard of orange wine, but I'm now fascinated. Will have to be on the lookout for it. One question: In your typical reds & whites wine list, where would I find this listed? Or do I have to know what to look for?

chgoeditor wrote:Thanks for posting about this...I'd never heard of orange wine, but I'm now fascinated. Will have to be on the lookout for it. One question: In your typical reds & whites wine list, where would I find this listed? Or do I have to know what to look for?

Telegraph has red, white and orange sections on the wine menu, but only one is available by the glass (2009 Cenobium Rusticum). I have not seen it on other menus, though there may very well be others out there; it's a novelty, weird and freakish.

chgoeditor wrote:Thanks for posting about this...I'd never heard of orange wine, but I'm now fascinated. Will have to be on the lookout for it. One question: In your typical reds & whites wine list, where would I find this listed? Or do I have to know what to look for?

The term orange wine seems slightly unfortunate to me but it serves a purpose. I don't know that any winemaker uses those words on the label. Unless a wine list has a separate orange category they should be grouped with the whites. Actually your typical wine list isn't likely to include any orange wines but they're worth seeking out.

It was a fascinating tasting, a great way to spend a couple hours. Here are the three wines sitting on the counter before they were carried back into the tasting room (visible at right).



In the order of tasting . . .

Radikon Ribolla Gialla (2004). A good introduction to the alternate orange universe. Fruit and flowers to the nose but tannic and frankly bitter as soon as it hit the tongue. Also, definite sherry-like flavors. I was reminded of the Three Floyds motto: It's Not Normal.

Vodopivec Vitovska (2006). At first, all I could focus on was a corked flavor* that I hated. After maybe an hour this dissipated (or my taste adjusted) to reveal an endlessly complex wine: lots of sharp edges and dissonant flavors yet somehow very appealing. I love the label: that's how the wine tastes. This is the one I'm most interested in trying again (preferably with food).

Movia Lunar (2008). Elegant is a word rarely applied to orange wines but Lunar shows a certain refinement. Some rounded cider and stone fruit flavors coupled with plenty of acidity plus a touch of sweetness. Reminiscent of certain Belgian fruit lambics (like Cantillon Fou' Foune).

A problem with these wines is their price. Most sell for over $40 (some for considerably more), so it's tough to call them a good value. I'm not saying the price is unjustified, only that for less money I can buy wines I'll enjoy more. Still, I find myself thinking about these orange wines more than a day later, something I don't always do with even more expensive bottles. These are haunting wines.

David Hammond wrote:In the gorgeous dark shadowy tasting room in back of the retail store, there’s an old menu from the last time House of Glunz served food. I was intrigued by an olive and nut sandwich – Barbara Kuck, who I learned works at Glunz, told me this was standard “semi-fancy” food in the early part of the century. Also on this old menu: peanut butter and jelly sandwiches (5 cents) and caviar sandwiches (25 cents).

The menu board hung in the old tavern until the recent renovations began. I hope it will return to its original place when construction finishes. It would be wonderful if the new bar serves egg & nut and olive & nut sandwiches but I wouldn't count on it. Anyone remember Harding's corned beef (sandwich A)? First served about a century ago at Planters Hotel, the corned beef quickly became famous and allowed owner John P Harding to expand into a downtown corned beef mini-empire. The brand continued on well into the 1980s.

* Lots of highly trained taste buds (not mine) were in the room yet there was no consensus on whether the wine was actually tainted with TCA or if that flavor should be expected in this bottling. Uncharted territory.

This was a fantastically low key tasting of diverse individuals. I am so glad the Glunzes stepped up for this; I view the House of Glunz as a steadfast (but somewhat overlooked) standard bearer for selling and promoting Old World Wines. To my mind, the so-called orange wines are a throwback to the old ways, so I don't think there could have been a more appropriate venue to taste these wines than at the generations-old House of Glunz. It was illuminating to taste these wines with professionals like Alpana, Barbara and Chris, who draw on years of wine and business knowledge in evaluating the viability of these oddities for the general marketplace. Many thanks to Mr. Hammond for organizing.

Orange wines still mostly lurk in the realm of exotica for wine geeks, and rarely appear on wine lists at restaurants. I think price is part of it, but the associated elements of selling a highly tannic, off-colored white wine are even larger barriers. As someone else pointed out, there is no regulated definition for orange wines. Most people think the nickname is a loose reference to the color, which ranges from pinot noir-red to deep yellow, as the below picture of the wines we tasted demonstrates somewhat:


L-R, 04 Radikon Ribolla Gialla, 06 Vodopivec Vitovska, 08 Movia Lunar

In addition to referencing the color, you could say that the term "orange wine" also refers to the taste. I've tasted a few orange wines before Friday, and I can't say that the three I tried on Friday ranked among my favorites. The orange wines I've most enjoyed in the past tasted like, well, the whole orange: the peel, the pith, the fruit, and the essential oils. Even though the wines we tasted are solid examples of this genre, none of them hit the orange high of others I've had.

I think there was a growing consensus that the Vodopivec was somewhat (not totally) corked, and after an hour, like Peter, I was able to taste around it (or my palate adjusted), and to me, this wine was the most exciting. One of the downsides of orange wines is that they are austere and astringent due to the tannins and even the aging mars the freshness that traditional white wines exhibit. The fruit notes in orange wine seem artificial, like the taste of hard candy (Jolly Rancher stands out to me in particular), or even eau-de-vie. The Vodopivec showed some bright cherry and blood orange flavors (although alongside some typical hard candy flavors).

The Movia was the most palate-friendly, less acidic, more like a hard apple cider, and in those ways, less like the typical orange wines I've tasted. Not tasted on Friday, but on the opposite end of the orange wine spectrum (for me) is the Scholium Project San Floriano Normale. (The name San Floriano is an homage to a northeastern Italian village located near the vineyards of orange wine godfather, Friuli-Slovene wine maker, Josko Gravner.) This Scholium Project orange wine is a real palate-buster with 16.9% alcohol, and at times, tasting like straight sherry vinegar. Not for the faint of heart; the wine shop where I purchased it had mistakenly described it as a Rosé, "something to enjoy on your patio..." Setting aside the fact that the wine is not a Rosé, I can't imagine a worse wine to sit around and sip on a patio during a summer afternoon-- unless you like spontaneously breaking out into sweats.

The Radikon was the most tannic, and we all agreed would pair well with red meat. (Sure enough, it was plenty good with the rosemary-laced sausage provided at the tasting.) Who would have thought that a white wine would stand up so well to assertively-seasoned red meat?

I think we all found -- either in the nose or on the palate -- notes of Belgian beer in these orange wines. A lot of our conversation on Friday centered around how to sell it, and what to pair it with. If people expected to drink a big red with red meat, how would you get them to accept a white wine? From a business perspective, I can understand why an orange wine is a challenge to restaurant owners and sommeliers.

Coincidentally, I ended up at The Tasting Room last night (I hadn't been in awhile), and guess what was on their menu?


2006 Blazic "Rebula", Slovenia

I wish we had this wine at our tasting on Friday, because to my palate, this was a more straight-up example of orange wine than the three we tried on Friday. The menu describes it as "drying but succulent," and I don't think I have much to add to that -- a sip of this scorches the tongue dry while tasting like an entire orange slice. The color (it is set against a true Rosé) is more typically orange as well:


Orange wine on the left, $16 per 6 oz. pour

I talked with the server at The Tasting Room about this wine, and he thought it was a classic example. But (and there's always a but with orange wine), he said it was very polarizing -- customers either loved it or hated it. Having said that, he thinks in a year, everyone will be drinking them. He said he paired it with food like he would a Belgian beer. So that begs the question, if Belgian beer is increasingly accepted (and heralded) as a food-friendly beverage, then why not orange wine?

Which is why I applaud Telegraph for blazing the trail for orange wines. (It is true that orange wines should technically be listed as white wine, but I can't blame Telegraph for taking the liberty of highlighting it as a separate section on the wine list.) If Telegraph played it safe, they wouldn't even attempt to introduce this wine to the public. To me, there's nobody better suited to amplifying orange wine to the Chicago consumer than an idiosyncratic sommelier like Jeremy Quinn. Telegraph takes a lot of risks in drafting their wine list (wine from the Canary Islands, anyone?). Judging by the crowds, I think it has paid off. Speaking personally, I hope more wine bars and restaurants follow suit. Much like a meal at Next or Alinea, you order orange wine to challenge you, even if you know that in the death throes of hunger or for your last meal, you'd rather have a hamburger or fine Bordeaux than chicken on a wire or orange wine. But, that doesn't mean there isn't a market for challenging wine, just as there are for challenging foods. I think if viewed in that regard, there's a place for orange wine.

Wendy, I’m so glad you, Mo and Peter joined us at this small event – having experienced palates and articulate tasters along on this trip made the experience so much more valuable.

Got to say, I didn't get many citrus flavors and there's not much sweetness at all in these orange wines, which is another reason why it seems slightly inappropriate to group them with whites (though as white grapes are used to make them, it’s not surprising that these freaks are frequently grouped with the whites).

I think I probably mentioned, but when we were at Telegraph last Thursday, we’d ordered the whipped pate foie gras, which the server initially thought would go well with the Cenobium…but then he thought better of it, and after the pate was served, he came by with some sparkling red, which worked much better. These orange wines are attention-grabbers that seem to push their way to the front of the taste parade – especially with the more tannic ones (e.g., Radikon), you want a big flavorful food to go with it; pate is too subtle; the sausage was just perfect.

Analogy with Alinea is good: the orange wines are challenging, and though I doubt I will ever crave them, they are provocative and intriguing and my experiences with them have fueled a lot of thought and, last Friday at Glunz and here on LTH, a good deal of thoughtful discussion.

Orange wine now the darling of the indie world, just as suspected: http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2012/08/w ... oshed.html

DH had a glass at the bar at Telegraph a few weeks ago. I tasted it and didn't like it. But I don't tend to like most wines I have had had that I'm told are "oxydized", which may be part of it.

David Hammond wrote:Orange wine now the darling of the indie world, just as suspected: http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2012/08/w ... oshed.html

Orange wine is so underground, that's even where it originally came from - it's no wonder hipsters love it

What would be some good orange wines to look for at binnys or another store?

fropones wrote:What would be some good orange wines to look for at binnys or another store?

I could recommend Movia Lunar but selection anywhere is going to be very small, if indeed they have any at all. I called Binny's in Elmwood Park and they didn't carry the stuff (the guy I spoke to on the phone didn't even know what orange wine was, exactly). I'd say, if you want to buy a bottle (and be forewarned it's going to be relatively expensive), call your favorite store, see if they have any, which I'm pretty sure they won't -- then see if they'll order some for you.

Or better, go to Telegraph, order a glass, and decide then if you want a whole bottle of the stuff. As leek suggested above, it's not going to be a taste that's guaranteed to please.

Orange wine can be one of three very different types of wine. It could be wine usually dry wine made from white wine grape varieties that have spent some maceration time in contact with the grape skins. "Orange wine" could also refer to sweet white wine macerated with orange peel. Finally, the term could refer to a beverage made by fermenting orange juice, rather than grape juice.
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wine club

I guess the term could also refer to wine from Orange county.

saunterer, have you had fermented orange juice? I may have, but only because I left a carton of juice in the refrigerator past its due date.

I'm headed to an orange wine (first definition) event tonight and will likely have something to report back.

Was at Spiaggia for a media dinner on Monday. It was all about the orange wine.

Chef Sarah “Top Chef, Texas” Gruenberg explained that “the orange wine was the muse” when she was constructing the menu. Usually, chefs create dishes and then find a wine to go with them; for this dinner, Gruenberg selected wine and then created dishes to go with them.



All the wines we tasted were from Friuli, and for now I’ll just focus on the one that was probably the best and also the most typical orange wine: Vadopivec. This wine was created by crushing white grapes and then letting the juice and skins sit in clay amphorae for three years. The result is a wine that our sommelier Jason Carlen described as “all about the aromatics, with dynamic tannic structure and salinity.” Simply stated, the Vadopivec smelled great, was full in the mouth, and was good with food.

We had this wine with a rabbit loin sprinkled with salty pancetta, which is the kind of dish that might be too much for most whites, almost not powerful enough to stand up to stronger reds, but just right for orange wine.

The corked version of the Vadopivec that Rene, Aschie30 and I tasted at Glunz (referenced above) was quite definitely warped beyond recognition: this same orange wine we had at Spiaggia was quite good (so good, in fact, that I doubt some would even recognize it as an orange wine).

As I was leaving, I talked with Carlen about how he tastes wine. He samples many wines every morning, and he told me he can actually discern the phases of the moon in each sip. According to the biodynamic calendar, the same wine tastes different on different days based on lunar phases. The wine, reflecting lunar influences, has forward characteristics of root, bud, leaf or flower. Carlen confirmed that although he can usually tell where the moon is at based on the taste of the wine, the important point is that wine, even opened wine, changes every day based on the moon and its phases.

David,

Didn't you also taste a Gravner? How did that hold up against the others?

aschie30 wrote:David,

Didn't you also taste a Gravner? How did that hold up against the others?

Yes, and it was also very good: 2004 Ribolla, Josko Gravner, Gorizia. Jason said he thought the wine "made friends with oxygen," and it didn't have many of the oxdized notes of some orange wines, though like many orange wines, "it drinks like a red." I think blindfolded, I might have guessed it was a Burgundy.

David Hammond wrote:

aschie30 wrote:David,

Didn't you also taste a Gravner? How did that hold up against the others?

Yes, and it was also very good: 2004 Ribolla, Josko Gravner, Gorizia. Jason said he thought the wine "made friends with oxygen," and it didn't have many of the oxdized notes of some orange wines, though like many orange wines, "it drinks like a red." I think blindfolded, I might have guessed it was a Burgundy.

Interesting! Sounds like it was a fun event.

There an iPhone app called BioGarden that was just launched by a boutique Aussie winemaker that will tell you what today is (root, leaf, bud, flower). I believe there are also tips about when the best days are to drink wine as well as plant and pick garden items. To be a certified biodynamic vineyard, this calendar has to be followed for just about every process of the wine making (picking the grapes according to the calendar even if the grape grower says they're ready on a certain day, racking the wines according to the calendar, bottling, etc).

The app is also hemisphere agnostic so even though we're in winter, it will show you the proper northern hemisphere day. Pretty interesting stuff and while a novice when it comes to wine and probably not able to tell the difference of the same wine on different lunar days, I've been able to eat at a few restaurants who strictly follow the calendar and the results are pretty stunning.

There are a few winemakers who are starting to experiment with orange wines. They're hard to come by down here and not large enough to be picked up by US importers yet, unfortunately. Luckily we have a great small wine bar scene that does all the leg work to source these wines.

I heard this 5-minute Jeremy Quinn radio interview about orange wine on The Splendid Table: http://soundcloud.com/thesplendidtable/jeremy-quinn-on-orange-wine

Thought some LTHers might be interested in additional background on orange wine, which evidently isn't even a commonly accepted term for this type of wine, according to Quinn. Though imo I think it's safe to say that name is gaining ground.

I'm also curious about the old House of Glunz menu - I wonder why the price of a fried egg sandwich (Q) was 10 cents, while an egg and lettuce sandwich (Z) was just 5 cents?

cabrito wrote:I'm also curious about the old House of Glunz menu - I wonder why the price of a fried egg sandwich (Q) was 10 cents, while an egg and lettuce sandwich (Z) was just 5 cents?

Maybe the fried egg sandwich actually contains two eggs? I will defer to ReneG on this.