Chopped....New Orleans

real good episode of Chopped last night. four chef's from New Orleans in competition. did anyone else watch ??

The lady who won the competition does catering and runs a food stand/truck selling Yaka Mein, a beef soup sold by local Chinese places in New Orleans. The wikipedia entry has 14 different spellings and two alternate origin stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaka_mein

I just learned something astounding: yaka mien, but spelled differently, has been a standard of Québec cuisine since forever, according to my good buddy Jean, who is somewhat of an expert in matters such as this. Perhaps the origin stories in Nawrlins need to go back to the *original* Cajuns, eh?

Geo

Edited once to add URL

Geo wrote:I just learned something astounding: yaka mien, but spelled differently, has been a standard of Québec cuisine since forever, according to my good buddy Jean, who is somewhat of an expert in matters such as this. Perhaps the origin stories in Nawrlins need to go back to the *original* Cajuns, eh?

A lot of misinformation on the origins of yet ca mein keeps getting repeated. Yet ca mein was found on Chinese menus in Chicago (and I assume elsewhere) in the early 20th century (one example from my collection is below). How a jazzed up version became a staple in New Orleans is undoubtedly an interesting story but I suspect we've only heard part of it so far.

Yetcamein in Chicago, circa 1920

I've learned a bit more: the Yet-ca-mein noodles themselves are made in Montréal, which is rather odd, given that we're not known for our pasta production here. And Jean has traced it back at least to the very early 20thC, when his grandmother-in-law ran a bordinghouse on the edge of MTL's Chinatown.

I think what we need is a menu from San Francisco's Chinatown after the railroad construction period. Most likely we'd find it there! Where's Antonius, one of the world's great pasta historians, when we need him??

Geo

Geo wrote:I've learned a bit more: the Yet-ca-mein noodles themselves are made in Montréal, which is rather odd, given that we're not known for our pasta production here. And Jean has traced it back at least to the very early 20thC, when his grandmother-in-law ran a bordinghouse on the edge of MTL's Chinatown.

Similar story in Chicago. This box of locally-made "yacamein" currently resides in my kitchen. It's from Hong Kong Noodle Company, perhaps Chicago's oldest pasta maker (in business since 1914). I don't know that they've been making yacamein for almost a century but I sure wouldn't bet against it.



Here's their "new" factory, on Wentworth across from the Chinatown library, dating from sometime after the mid-1950s (they were on Cermak before that).



I'm not at all trying to say that yet ca mein originated in Chicago or that the city had any special role in popularizing it. Together with your Montréal information, it simply suggests a noodle dish by that name was widespread long before its supposed origination in New Orleans. The idea that, "it was introduced to the U.S. by African American troops who fought in the Korean War and returned with a taste for some of the noodle soup dishes they had in Korea," (quoted from Wikipedia) is untenable.

Geo wrote:I think what we need is a menu from San Francisco's Chinatown after the railroad construction period. Most likely we'd find it there! Where's Antonius, one of the world's great pasta historians, when we need him??

I haven't looked at menus that old but yet ca mein (in various spellings) certainly appears on California menus from the 1940s. I'd be surprised if there weren't mentions some fifty years earlier.

Rene G--

I've done a bit of digging, and it looks like the Wing Noodle Company, which makes the "Chinese noodles", was founded in Montréal right after WWI. So the dish has been present here since then. As you point out, this and other facts you've dug up show that several of the origin stories are impossible.

I'll keep digging.

Geo

Here is my theory on the name of this dish. I may be totally wrong. In Cantonese, the word for the number one is Yet. Gaw (or Ge in Mandarin) is a particle that serves as a general measure. When you enumerate things in Chinese, you always follow the number with a measure, such as piece, bottle, slice, basket, cup etc. For instance you ask for 1 bottle beer or 1 glass beer, but never just 1 beer. Gaw is a particle that is used as a general measure. So Yet Gaw would mean one item. Mein means noodles. Therefore, my guess is that Yet Gaw Mein simply means one item noodles. Leung is the word for a pair, so Leung Gaw Mein would mean a pair of items noodles. Saam means 3, so Saam Gaw Mein would be 3 item noodles. In this case, my guess would be that the item being referred to is a type of meat (one noodle makes no sense), so noodles with a single type of meat would be called Yet Gaw Mein (in Mandarin: Yi Ge Mien). The different spellings are simply derived from various American mispronunciations. Again, I might be completely wrong. Maybe there is a native Cantonese speaker who could weigh in on this.

d4v3 wrote:Here is my theory on the name of this dish. I may be totally wrong. In Cantonese, the word for the number one is Yet. Gaw (or Ge in Mandarin) is a particle that serves as a general measure. When you enumerate things in Chinese, you always follow the number with a measure, such as piece, bottle, slice, basket, cup etc. For instance you ask for 1 bottle beer or 1 glass beer, but never just 1 beer. Gaw is a particle that is used as a general measure. So Yet Gaw would mean one item. Mein means noodles. Therefore, my guess is that Yet Gaw Mein simply means one item noodles. Leung is the word for a pair, so Leung Gaw Mein would mean a pair of items noodles. Saam means 3, so Saam Gaw Mein would be 3 item noodles. In this case, my guess would be that the item being referred to is a type of meat (one noodle makes no sense), so noodles with a single type of meat would be called Yet Gaw Mein (in Mandarin: Yi Ge Mien). The different spellings are simply derived from various American mispronunciations. Again, I might be completely wrong. Maybe there is a native Cantonese speaker who could weigh in on this.

Your theory is almost certainly correct as this excerpt from another old Chicago menu (this one from the 1930s) shows.



The Chinese name for the dish is 一个麵 = yi ge mian (Mandarin) = yet gaw/ca mein (Cantonese). Thanks for pointing out the Cantonese pronunciations. It makes a lot more sense now.

Wow, seeing the actual Chinese characters makes it clear (who would order one noodle?). That menu is like the rosetta stone of Ameri-Chinese dishes. I am sure the basis for the names of certain dishes have long been forgotten.

Of course, the classic story is Chop Suey. Swei means bits. Ling Ling Swei Swei means useless bits or scraps, like the odds and ends that are left on a cutting block at the end of a night. The story goes that some drunken Americans (either in Hong Kong or San Francisco depending on the version of the story) were pounding on the door of a closed restaurant demanding food. The proprietor said all he had to serve them was swei. The word chop is nonsense used by Americans in a derogatory fashion (as in "Chop chop"). So the cook scraped up the scraps from the counter and fried them in a wok. When the customers wanted to know the name of this wonderful dish, he told them it was "Chop Swei", or cut-up garbage. The Americans thought they had discovered some wonderful authentic dish. I can imagine how funny it was when all these Americans started showing up at restaurants requesting Chop Suey from the secret menu.

Nice going folks, I get it totally. I know enough Mandarin to know the measure words (yi pin pijiu, leung ge ren, etc), but I know absolutely nothing about Guangzhouhua and your explanation really helped. And nice detective work!

Geo

Rene G wrote:

d4v3 wrote:Here is my theory on the name of this dish. I may be totally wrong. In Cantonese, the word for the number one is Yet. Gaw (or Ge in Mandarin) is a particle that serves as a general measure. When you enumerate things in Chinese, you always follow the number with a measure, such as piece, bottle, slice, basket, cup etc. For instance you ask for 1 bottle beer or 1 glass beer, but never just 1 beer. Gaw is a particle that is used as a general measure. So Yet Gaw would mean one item. Mein means noodles. Therefore, my guess is that Yet Gaw Mein simply means one item noodles. Leung is the word for a pair, so Leung Gaw Mein would mean a pair of items noodles. Saam means 3, so Saam Gaw Mein would be 3 item noodles. In this case, my guess would be that the item being referred to is a type of meat (one noodle makes no sense), so noodles with a single type of meat would be called Yet Gaw Mein (in Mandarin: Yi Ge Mien). The different spellings are simply derived from various American mispronunciations. Again, I might be completely wrong. Maybe there is a native Cantonese speaker who could weigh in on this.

Your theory is almost certainly correct as this excerpt from another old Chicago menu (this one from the 1930s) shows.



The Chinese name for the dish is 一个麵 = yi ge mian (Mandarin) = yet gaw/ca mein (Cantonese). Thanks for pointing out the Cantonese pronunciations. It makes a lot more sense now.

I wanted to mention a slightly different translation of 一个麵. A couple months ago I spoke with a Chinese-American doctoral candidate studying Midwestern Chinese foodways. Her parents used to have a restaurant that served yetcamein. She translates it as "one serving/ladleful of noodles" rather than noodles with one addition. It's almost always the cheapest item on the menu, ensuring its continuing popularity.

Rene G wrote:Here's their "new" factory, on Wentworth across from the Chinatown library, dating from sometime after the mid-1950s (they were on Cermak before that).

I found out that one of Hong Kong Noodle's phone numbers is 1-866-EGG-ROLL. Thought y'all deserved to know that important tidbit.

Rene G wrote:I wanted to mention a slightly different translation of 一个麵. A couple months ago I spoke with a Chinese-American doctoral candidate studying Midwestern Chinese foodways. Her parents used to have a restaurant that served yetcamein. She translates it as "one serving/ladleful of noodles" rather than noodles with one addition. It's almost always the cheapest item on the menu, ensuring its continuing popularity.

That makes sense for "1 noodle", although there must be a measure for a spoonful of something. In mandarin there is the measure word "wan" , that is used with noodles, but it means a bowlful (yi wan mian). Chinese noodles come in sort of blocks or nests that are essentially 1 continuous unbroken noodle stretched out (like spaghetti). I guess contrary to the statement I made in a post above that "1 noodle" makes no sense, one of these "nests" of noodles could properly be called one noodle. Here is a link to a picture of long continuous noodles wrapped into balls: http://healthyfoodblog.files.wordpress. ... les-xl.jpg

I'm randomly chiming in to say I didn't see that episode of Chopped but I do remember seeing this thread earlier and now it is likely the most magnificent thread that is most totally mis-named (I'm not referring to noodles).

ReneG, thanks too for the phone number

I remember a place that served "yock a mein" in the 50's in Norfolk, VA, where I grew up. There was a sign in the window showing a bowl of noodle soup and a chicken leg. My Dad used to joke about going to get a bowl of "yock."

Wish we had tried it.

The lady from this episode was in the New Yaka Times, in the Frugal Taveller Blog:

In New Orleans, Vivid Flavors of Vietnam
By SETH KUGEL

Singleton’s Mini Mart sells Vietnamese food on Saturdays.
Hawking her ya-ka-mein soup at a recent New Orleans concert, Linda Green went through her basic sales pitch: it’s beef and noodles. It’s a local secret, she told me. It’s an African-American tradition. But then came an odd clincher.
“It’s a little like pho,” she said. “But better.”

http://frugaltraveler.blogs.nytimes.com ... f-vietnam/

I think at least five chopped winners are from New Orleans

New Orleans ya-ka-mein makes The Atlantic.

Bye the bye, just looking at that pic of the 1920s Chicago menu, I wonder if "Warmein" might actually mean "wu mein"?

Geo

Geo wrote:New Orleans ya-ka-mein makes The Atlantic.

It's a shame the misinformation about the soldiers from the Korean War keeps getting repeated.

Geo wrote:Bye the bye, just looking at that pic of the 1920s Chicago menu, I wonder if "Warmein" might actually mean "wu mein"?

War Mein (窩麵) is listed on the 1930s menu.



The Mandarin pronunciation of 窩 (the traditional character for nest) is wō* which sounds fairly similar to "war." I don't know the Cantonese pronunciation.

* You can hear it pronounced here: forvo.com/word/窩/

Rene G wrote:The Mandarin pronunciation of 窩 (the traditional character for nest) is wō* which sounds fairly similar to "war." I don't know the Cantonese pronunciation.

* You can hear it pronounced here: forvo.com/word/窩/

I believe it is the same in Cantonese and Mandarin. War is probably some sub-dialect. Placing extra R's at end of words is typical of Beijing hua (or huar), making Beijing the Boston of China. In Beijing they might pronounce this character "wor", only they speak Madarin in Beijing. This means nest noodles. Which undoubtedly is a nest made of noodles, although wo can also be the swallows' nests used in bird's nest soup. It can also mean a den or lair, or an armpit. mmmmm... armpit noodles.