Brisket Sous Vide?

Anyone here have any experience cooking sous vide - vacuum pouch in low-temp water bath?

Near the end of an 18-hour brisket smoking session I got to thinking about some incredible short ribs I had eaten this way in a restaurant and wondering what would happen to a brisket. I have a vacuum sealer and could easily borrow an immersion circulation heater. I would have to use only the flat since a full brisket wouldn't fit in the pouch.

Anyone have any idea whether the collagen in the brisket would break down if cooked long enough in a 150F water bath? Are there any resourses for the home enthusiast who wants to try out sous vide? Am I insane?

Bill/SFNM

Bill,

Have you tried it yet!?

I don't have any experience with this, but it sounds like an intriguing idea. I don't see why this wouldn't work, especially if you break down the brisket into more manageable sized hunks.

Let us know what you find,

trixie

I've had short ribs cooked sous vide and they were excellent. Brisket should be similar.

I'm wondering if the 150 degree water is hot enough to break down the collegan in brisket. The only reason I bring this up is because, as you know, you are shooting for a much higher internal temp when smoking a brisket. You might want to consider warmer water.

Deleted.

extramsg wrote:However, the reason you simmer a braise rather than boil it is because too high a temperature creates a rubbery texture in the strands of protein.

Not sure I agree with this statement. I regularly cook brisket pot roast in the pressure cooker which at this altitude is approx 235F. The brisket comes out silky soft and tender. Never, ever rubbery.

Bill/SFNM

Any idea how I can monitor the internal temp of the food without compromising the pressurization of the pouch?

Bill/SFNM

Bill/SFNM wrote:Any idea how I can monitor the internal temp of the food without compromising the pressurization of the pouch?

Bill/SFNM

Infrared thermometer?

http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/infraredthermometer.html

Some typical circumstances are where the object to be measured is moving; where the object is surrounded by an EM field, as in induction heating; where the object is contained in a vacuum or other controlled atmosphere; or in applications where a fast response is required.

Thanks, but I don't think an IR thermometer will measure the internal temp of the brisket. If I pull the pouch of the water and hit it with the IR thermometer, it'll just give me the temp of the outer surface of the pouch.

Bill/SFNM

I've got nothing else, other than this reference to some cooking times for smaller cuts of meat that I found on eGullet

short ribs 12 hours 190 degrees
pork belly same
veal cheeks same
beef cheeks cooked in tallow for 24 hours at 150 degrees in a pot on the stove
meyer lemons 12 hours 190 degrees
spring garlic 5 hours 190 degrees

extramsg wrote:I just did some research. Collagen actually melts at temperatures below body heat (ie, for humans 98.6).

I think you may be confusing collagen and gelatin. Collagen solubilizes at 160F and becomes gelatin. If collagen melted below body temperature, we would be jellyfish.

Kit

Kit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Welcome to my favorite food scientist!

You may be able to help me here. If I'm going to hold a marinated brisket flat in a 170F water bath (in a sealed vacuum pouch) for a long period of time (16 hours), should my wife take out an insurance policy on me with a botulism double indemnity rider?

Bill/SFNM

Bill !!!!!!!!!!

We sure missed you at the KA Q Fest. There was a toast or two in your honor. I drank your share of the Pinot.

If you were to do that to a poor defenseless brisket, I hope your wife would take out that policy before she shoots you. Seriously, 170F is a cooking temp and you don't have to worry. Food born pathogens are inactive above 140F.

After all the fermented and rotten stuff you have consumed, you may be able to tolerate a little botulism. Speaking of fermented and rotten, I have in my possesion a real authentic Dan Gill Virginia ham hung at barn temperatures for 10 years. It has almost as much character as Dan. I'll save you some if you promise to visit. Whatever you do, don't tell Wiviott I have it.

Kit

kit wrote:Speaking of fermented and rotten, I have in my possesion a real authentic Dan Gill Virginia ham hung at barn temperatures for 10 years.

How do you plan to cook it? I have a Kentucky ham of similar vintage. When I bought it in Cave City, I planned to bake it in dough, as described by Calvin Trillin, but I hung it in the basement, and with one thing and another, I never got around to cooking it. I think it's now too elderly for the dough treatment.

How do you plan to cook it? I have a Kentucky ham of similar vintage. When I bought it in Cave City, I planned to bake it in dough, as described by Calvin Trillin, but I hung it in the basement, and with one thing and another, I never got around to cooking it. I think it's now too elderly for the dough treatment.

I actually don't think it is even possible to bake it as it has lost so much moisture and is too dense. I bought a Forschner 10" slicer to cut it paper thin and treat it like prosciutto, serrano or jamon. In fact, this is better than any prosciutto than I have ever had from Zingerman's. The only other way to eat this is to soak slices in warm water for a half hour. Then render some of the fat cut off from the slices, fry the ham very quickly and deglaze with coffee.

got ham?

Kit

kit wrote:
got ham?

No, but I do have a picture.

Bruce wrote:No, but I do have a picture.

That picture sure looks familiar

kit wrote:I have in my possesion a real authentic Dan Gill Virginia ham hung at barn temperatures for 10 years. It has almost as much character as Dan. I'll save you some if you promise to visit. Whatever you do, don't tell Wiviott I have it.

Kit, why don't you and your ham come visit in the next week or two. If you can't make it, just send the ham.

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

Bruce wrote:No, but I do have a picture.

That picture sure looks familiar

Is that your screensaver? If so, I'm sure your screen is about gone.

G Wiv wrote:

kit wrote:I have in my possesion a real authentic Dan Gill Virginia ham hung at barn temperatures for 10 years. It has almost as much character as Dan. I'll save you some if you promise to visit. Whatever you do, don't tell Wiviott I have it.

Kit, why don't you and your ham come visit in the next week or two. If you can't make it, just send the ham.

Enjoy,
Gary

Kit,

Stop here first and we can smoke a lot of Duck Breast Pastrami!

Bruce wrote:Stop here first and we can smoke a lot of Duck Breast Pastrami!

Actually, duck breast pastrami is on my list of things I want to try sous vide. I was thinking of a cold smoke for a few hours and then seal and place in the water bath.

Bill/SFNM

Actually, duck breast pastrami is on my list of things I want to try sous vide. I was thinking of a cold smoke for a few hours and then seal and place in the water bath.

Besides storage, I'm not sure I get the point of sous vide. I found an article that states foie gras is improved. But what are you gaining if you eat the product immediately?

For duck, most commercial is injected so you have to be careful with salt. If you can get wild or free range, especially Muscovy, you should get a better flavor and texture result.

Of course, you will conduct a double blind study of sous vide vs traditional and commercial vs free range. Then report back to us, will you?

Kit

Kit,

There is a completely different texture. More importantly, the flavor is more intense and appealing as nothing escapes during the cooking process. These changes can be quite dramatic, but the more I read, the more concerned I become about my ability to do it right. Apparently, very small changes in vacuum pressure and cooking temp can make a big difference in the final product. Two important things I don't have are 1) a way to monitor internal temps of food in the pouch while cooking; and 2) a way to control the pressure when sealing the pouch (I just have a Tilia Foodsaver). Still learning.

Bill/SFNM

I would say you don't need to really take the temperature of the meat inside the pouch. If you leave it in 150 degree water long enough it'll all hit 150 and never rise above that. Nothing I've seen indicates keeping it at the target temperature longer than needed causes damage...

So just let it soak for a day

Your questions, though, are probably why one of the creators of the technique charges big, big bucks to go to restaurant kitchens and train the staff for 3 days.

gleam wrote:Your questions, though, are probably why one of the creators of the technique charges big, big bucks to go to restaurant kitchens and train the staff for 3 days.

Who?

sazerac wrote:Who?

Bruno Goussault

gleam wrote: Nothing I've seen indicates keeping it at the target temperature longer than needed causes damage...

Not so sure. Kit can correct me, but I don't think collagen suddenly all breaks down as soon as the meat reaches 160F. I've had to leave tough chunks of meat in the smoker long after it reached 160F internal before it became tender.

You're probably right that overcooking is not a big concern.

Bill/SFNM

Probably true.

I meant rather thatn if you held it in the target temp for a week it would probably still be fine. But I don't know the science well enough..

Hire Bruno!

Not so sure. Kit can correct me, but I don't think collagen suddenly all breaks down as soon as the meat reaches 160F. I've had to leave tough chunks of meat in the smoker long after it reached 160F internal before it became tender.

You are right. It does not all breakdown at once. There are lots of types of collagen all made from the same peptides. Some of it is in thin layers surrounding muscle fibers, bundles, and groups, and blood vessels. Some of it in big structures like ligaments and tendons. The thicker the layers, the longer it will take at 160F to break the cross links that join the collagen fibrils together that form larger layers of collagen.

The thin layers that surround muscle fibers do suddenly breakdown at 160. That is why the texture of meat and its water content changes so dramatically in lean meats at that temperature.

But with gnarly pieces of meat with lots of big collagen fibers, the longer at 160F it will take.

Kit

kit wrote:
But with gnarly pieces of meat with lots of big collagen fibers, the longer at 160F it will take.

Kit

I just love these scientific terms. You must be talking about brisket. Cook until it looks like a meteorite.

Bruce wrote:You must be talking about brisket. Cook until it looks like a meteorite.

Actually, I have been talking about brisket. One thing about sous vide is that there will be no meteorite bark like you get in a smoker. But the flavor, whatever will be more concentrated. Whether the final result is better is something I'm anxious to see.

Bill,

If you can find one locally, why not buy a point for experimentation purposes before committing to a whole brisket.