Grange Hall Burgers -- Am I a Chump?

Here's a philosophical question:

Last night, I spent $26 for a smallish burger, a slim order of onion rings and a can of beer at Grange Hall -- Am I a chump?

More data:

Last weekend, I fed my family of four at Epic Burger for about $33. Were they "epic" burgers? No, but much better than what was available in a fast-food setting a few years ago. Were the burgers better than Grange Hall? No.

I have had some fine burgers in the past six months -- Edzo's, BopNGrill, the Gage, Fountainhead, and a double-double w/cheese at In N Out. I would gladly order any of these again.

I enjoyed the burger at Grange Hall. It was appealingly juicy/greasy and I like that they did not melt the slice of sharp cheddar but just sort of laid it over the top. But was it orders of magnitude better than the burgers on the list above? Absolutely not. It wasn't better than any of them.

I know that the X-factor at Grange Hall is that everything is organic, grass-fed, etc. While I do think it made a difference in taste, I think that difference was marginal. For some people, just KNOWING that things are organic makes them all tingly and adds to their experience -- that, I suppose, is Grange's trump card (along with farm-chic irony). I'm just not hard-wired that way.

So back to my original question -- I felt like a chump when I ponied up my $26 last night. Would you?

Grange Hall Burger Bar
844 West Randolph Street
Chicago, IL 60607
1 312 491 0844
http://www.grangehallburgerbar.com/

A regular burger with cheese, a side (rings) and a soda is (according to their online menu) $16 + tax at Grange. The same order at epic burger is $10 + tax.

Grange is definitely more (60%), but is not so much more that I'd freel like a chump if I liked the food and vibe. It is also not so much more that I would subject Grange Hall to this thread title for the life of this forum.

I always thought Veerasway was a good value, but having not been to Grange Hall, and unable to reconcile your figures, do you tip a server there, or was your beer a lot? Either way, I'm not sure it is fair to compare to Epic Burger (as I wouldn't compare The Gage into the conversation too)

[quote="milz50"]A regular burger with cheese, a side (rings) and a soda is (according to their online menu) $16 + tax at Grange. The same order at epic burger is $10 + tax.

Grange is definitely more (60%), but is not so much more that I'd freel like a chump if I liked the food and vibe. It is also not so much more that I would subject Grange Hall to this thread title for the life of this forum.]

60% more becomes 100% more, once you add in tip (let's leave the beer out and assume I had a soda-- with tip, we are at c. $20). That means that to feed my family of four at Grange Hall, I'd shell out $80 for burgers, fries and sodas....

The heart of my question, however, is whether not there is threshold value for a "burger experience." When, that is, does the law of diminishing returns kick in? A fair question, I think...

The premium is clearly paid for the Organic, grass-fed factor. That has a lot of value for some. If one is not interested in such things, I doubt the taste factor would be worth the additional cost. Count me as one who values the Organic, grass-fed factor

mrefjl wrote:The premium is clearly paid for the Organic, grass-fed factor. That has a lot of value for some. If one is not interested in such things, I doubt the taste factor would be worth the additional cost. Count me as one who values the Organic, grass-fed factor

As a point of comparison, Edzo's offers standard (actually, fresh ground in house..hardly standard) beef on their burgers, but also three or four Organic/fancy beef choices from various local farms as an option. The upcharge for the designer beef is only $3 - $5.

Grass fed/organic is just one part of the equation in making a burger. The cuts they choose to grind, the grind itself, the prep, etc. all play just as big a role as the quality of the meat. If any of the elements are off it ends up negating the extra charge for the quality of beef.

$16 for a well prepared burger with solid accompaniments sounds reasonable, but based on what other places charge for quality burgers I would consider it to be close to the tipping point of diminishing returns. Owen & Engine serves a great grass fed burger for about $15 that I consider to be well worth it. Rockit Bar and Grill serves a Kobe burger for about $20 that, while good, isn't worth the extra expense.

I ate at Grange Hall in their first week, and the fact that I paid additional for the side of fries that came out was laughable. It was literally a ramaken with 8-10 thick cut fries. I do not know if they have rectified this, but I don't think i'll be going back.

Speak of the Devil:

http://www.bundle.com/article/burger-nomics-26-hamburger-worth-it/

I had the $26 Minetta Tavern burger (mentioned in the article) and would gladly do it again. I think a lot of it is the perception of the burger as cheap food, which it doesn't have to be. Folks pay $26 without blinking for a small piece of filet mignon even if served with little more effort than cooking with salt and pepper.

Jonah

Dr. K wrote:Here's a philosophical question:

Last night, I spent $26 for a smallish burger, a slim order of onion rings and a can of beer at Grange Hall -- Am I a chump?

So back to my original question -- I felt like a chump when I ponied up my $26 last night. Would you?

No, I'd spend half that for a wood grilled Slagel Farms cheese burger served with some of the best fries I've ever eaten at Nightwood. Nightwood is currently my favorite Chicago restaurant, & serves one of the best burgers its been my pleasure to enjoy.

Picture courtesy of Ronnie Suburban


in this post, which gives more details HERE

stevez wrote:As a point of comparison, Edzo's offers standard (actually, fresh ground in house..hardly standard) beef on their burgers, but also three or four Organic/fancy beef choices from various local farms as an option. The upcharge for the designer beef is only $3 - $5.

Per 4 oz. So an 8 oz. char burger with a beef upgrade would be $10.29-$12.29, depending on the kind you choose. A 9 oz. burger at Grange Hall is $11.95, according to their menu. Seems pretty comparable to me.

(None of this is to say that the price is worth it or not worth it -- that's up to each consumer. But it seems pretty obvious that the provenance of the meat is the main contributor to the higher price. Of course, Edzo's tells you which farms the meat comes from; I couldn't find this info at the Grange Hall site (admittedly I didn't try very hard)).

Dr. K wrote:So back to my original question -- I felt like a chump when I ponied up my $26 last night. Would you?

A "thing" is "worth" what someone is willing to pay for it. $26 for a burger and fries??? Grass fed, (for that price the steer should have been fed with caviar and allowed to commit suicide in a dignified manner)! For $26 I could have had 4 burger baskets at the Grill at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OMDm6tXquI&context=C3db354fADOEgsToPDskJb2AgU04aMZGUsVxCOs1Ue%20Classic%20Bowl%20in%20Morton%20Grove and had enough change left to bowl a couple of lines... like I said, a "thing" is "worth" what someone is willing to pay.

tortminder wrote:

Dr. K wrote:So back to my original question -- I felt like a chump when I ponied up my $26 last night. Would you?

A "thing" is "worth" what someone is willing to pay for it. For $26 I could have had 4 burger baskets at the Grill at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OMDm6tXquI&context=C3db354fADOEgsToPDskJb2AgU04aMZGUsVxCOs1Ue%20Classic%20Bowl%20in%20Morton%20Grove

That video is kinda brutal...I would pay to not watch it and the "best of sysco" food again

On the actual subject, $26 is steep for a burger+ (even those made from happy cows who were spoon-fed organsmic (organic and orgasmic), free range, lactose free, PBA free grass)...give me Top Notch or Fat Tommy's

scanz wrote:That video is kinda brutal...I would pay to not watch it and the "best of sysco" food again

Whatever floats yer boat scanz. If you are into overpaying for "gourmet" burgers, (a bit of an oxymoron phrase), mazeltov!
A burger is a burger is a burger... basically a heart attack on a bun, (at least I got some exercise by bowling afterward )

tortminder wrote:If you are into overpaying for "gourmet" burgers, (a bit of an oxymoron phrase), mazeltov!
A burger is a burger is a burger... basically a heart attack on a bun, (at least I got some exercise by bowling afterward )

Sorry if I wasn't quite clear, I am definately not in the "boutique" burger sheeple group. I don't care much what the cow eats as long as it tastes good when I'm eating it...although when I lived in the QC area some of the beef was so heavily corn fed, you could taste it which wasn't great.

Great burgers can be made at a low cost, and that is one of the best things about burgers. But good sourcing of meat is crucial (whether grass fed/organic or not). Looking just at factory farmed meat you can buy the same cuts of beef at Dominick's and at Costco for similar prices, and I'm certain anyone can taste the difference between the two and would agree that Costco has better meat buyers. Since burgers are made from a mix of cuts another layer of complexity is involved in purchasing grind/ground beef, and the buyers' skill level is tested more than it is when buying distinct cuts.

When you start getting into "gourmet burgers" there is also the choice of cuts to use in the grind when a place is grinding themselves. The price goes up as soon as a place is specifying the cuts that are used in the grind (again, whether organic or not). Going with a mix of mystery cuts leads to inconsistent results, and if a place is getting a grind that is full of sinew/silver instead of honest fat you'll notice a different texture in the burger. Grinding the meat themselves raises the price again through the sourcing and labor required, but ultimately it is what a place should do to really deliver consistent results. Grinding in house (if done well) also gives a significantly better texture to the burger, and results in a "beefier" burger. There is a trend recently for fancy burgers, so there are places that are just jumping on the bandwagon, but a "gourmet burger" from a skilled restaurant will really stand above traditional burgers.

The benefits of going with a cow that is eating forage and not being pumped with hormones don't start to really show until the previous steps have been addressed. For myself I can taste the difference in forage fed beef, but a place that is all organic but isn't sourcing and grinding it's meat well will be worse than a place that isn't organic, but sources their meat well and prepares it properly. Obviously a place that does all of the above can waste that effort by spicing or cooking the meat poorly. If a place has put extra efforts (and $) into getting good ground beef they are much more likely to make sure the kitchen prepares it right, and consistently.

Attrill wrote:There is a trend recently for fancy burgers, so there are places that are just jumping on the bandwagon, but a "gourmet burger" from a skilled restaurant will really stand above traditional burgers.

I appreciated your entire post but this passage in particular stands out.

Thanks,

=R=

Dr. K wrote:Here's a philosophical question:

Last night, I spent $26 for a smallish burger, a slim order of onion rings and a can of beer at Grange Hall -- Am I a chump?

More data:

Last weekend, I fed my family of four at Epic Burger for about $33. Were they "epic" burgers? No, but much better than what was available in a fast-food setting a few years ago. Were the burgers better than Grange Hall? No.

I have had some fine burgers in the past six months -- Edzo's, BopNGrill, the Gage, Fountainhead, and a double-double w/cheese at In N Out. I would gladly order any of these again.

I enjoyed the burger at Grange Hall....

See that about sums it up for me. It's all good. I find that burgers have the ability to deliver pleasure across a wide range of styles and price-points. In fact, I could eat burgers 3, 4, 5 days a week (at least), and not be bored. I know this gets into a certain amount of Plotnickism-ish stuff here (that I'll come back to in a moment). For me, I enjoy the experience and tastes of a lot of burgers. I enjoy greatly the experience of a good, EXPENSIVE, burger, but that experience does not take away from my enjoying other burgers.

Now, all this is not to say that there's not quality differences between price points and also at price points. I mean a lot of standard diner burgers are just not that good any more. Sonic, McDonalds and BK all suck, but I like Culvers a fair amount. Also, as somewhat noted above, one can have other important values. I like to get the up-charged burgers at Edzo's not just for the taste but to support his ability to offer such burgers. That may be a bit crazy on my part. I don't mind.

Vital Information wrote:I like to get the up-charged burgers at Edzo's not just for the taste but to support his ability to offer such burgers. That may be a bit crazy on my part. I don't mind.

I've actually done side by side taste tests at Edzo's and can't find any descernable difference in taste between their standard burger (which is better than 90% of the hot dog stand burgers out there) and the upcharged burger from at least two different sources. If it makes you feel good to support those farms or if you feel there is some percieved health benefit to designer beef, then by all means go for it. Either way, Edzo makes a mighty fine burger.

stevez wrote:

Vital Information wrote:I like to get the up-charged burgers at Edzo's not just for the taste but to support his ability to offer such burgers. That may be a bit crazy on my part. I don't mind.

I've actually done side by side taste tests at Edzo's and can't find any descernable difference in taste between their standard burger (which is better than 90% of the hot dog stand burgers out there) and the upcharged burger from at least two different sources. If it makes you feel good to support those farms or if you feel there is some percieved health benefit to designer beef, then by all means go for it. Either way, Edzo makes a mighty fine burger.

Interesting. One time at Edzo's I split a Tallgrass burger and a Dietzler burger (both cooked medium rare) with my dining companions. There was a clear difference betweent the 2. I greatly preferred the Dietzler burger but I don't remember my companions' preferences. So, at least in that single experience, I noticed a major difference.

=R=

stevez wrote: If it makes you feel good to support those farms or if you feel there is some percieved health benefit to designer beef, then by all means go for it. Either way, Edzo makes a mighty fine burger.

Is there any question that there is health benefits to beef that is not given rgbh and antibiotics and fed grass? If prepared poorly they still can taste bad, but I'd be happier if Top Notch used some "gourmet" meat.

ronnie_suburban wrote:

stevez wrote:

Vital Information wrote:I like to get the up-charged burgers at Edzo's not just for the taste but to support his ability to offer such burgers. That may be a bit crazy on my part. I don't mind.

I've actually done side by side taste tests at Edzo's and can't find any descernable difference in taste between their standard burger (which is better than 90% of the hot dog stand burgers out there) and the upcharged burger from at least two different sources. If it makes you feel good to support those farms or if you feel there is some percieved health benefit to designer beef, then by all means go for it. Either way, Edzo makes a mighty fine burger.

Interesting. One time at Edzo's I split a Tallgrass burger and a Dietzler burger (both cooked medium rare) with my dining companions. There was a clear difference betweent the 2. I greatly preferred the Dietzler burger but I don't remember my companions' preferences. So, at least in that single experience, I noticed a major difference.

=R=

I haven't done a head to head test at Edzo's (I'll have to try that!), but I have gotten both the standard offering and an upgrade on different visits and felt that I preferred the upgrade - although I agree that Edzo's makes a mighty fine burger, and you can't go wrong either way.

A few years back I put together a blind taste test of different burgers at a beer tasting we had and most people could detect a difference between all the meats. The contenders were ground at home from Dietzler trimmings (mostly chuck and sirloin), ground at home from Costco boneless short ribs, and a package of Jewel ground beef. Averaging out the scores had Dietzler just barely beating the Costco beef. The Jewel ground beef got positive scores, but far lower ones than the other two. About 1/4 of the people preferred the Costco beef by a fair margin, and the remainder favored the Dietzler beef by a smaller margin. A couple people REALLY didn't like the Dietzler. At the time I was struck by how poor the existing vocabulary for describing beef is, it seemed to be limited to "beefy", "flavorful", and "lamby". The two people who didn't like the Dietzler described it as "lamby" in a derogatory way, and a few of the people who loved the Dietzler agreed with them, but took "lamby" to be a positive term.

My daughter and I had a nice meal about three weeks ago. We really enjoyed the burgers. My only quibble was the tab, $58 (pre-tip) for two cheeseburgers with fries, one order of fried vegetables for an appetizer, and two beers.

We choose to purchase quality ingredients at home (organic, sustainable, etc) and I am always willing to pay a premium for good ingredients, but this seemed a bit high to me. I would return, if not for the prices.

Not to challenge Al at all but it's interesting that this thread should pop up because just a couple of days ago some friends and I were discussing our most disappointing meals of 2012 and a lunch we'd had back in the middle of the year at Grange Hall came up. Regardless of the price, we all found the food to be incredibly bland. In fact, the reason the meal was so memorably disappointing was because everything we were served looked amazing but was so devoid of flavor. Honestly, it was some of the most flavorless food I can remember having, especially given how gorgeous it was.


Fried Vegetable Basket
These were pretty bland and I do wonder what the prep procedure on these is since all the vegetables in the basket (green beans, green pepper, zucchini, mushrooms, onions and jalapenos ) tasted nearly identical. The house-made horseradish mayo served with these was the most distinctively flavored item we had at our meal.



Farmhouse Chili Fries (turkey chili, russet fries, white onion, sharp white cheddar)
This is a shit-ton of calories to be so entirely devoid of flavor. I was stunned by how bland this delectable-looking bowl was. I've had great turkey chili before so let's not blame it on that, either.



Big John Burger (sesame Poppy Bun [top removed for photo], American cheese, caramelized sweet and red onions, fried egg)
Caution: Food may appear more delicious than it actually is.
My biggest disappointment just based on the huge appearance to flavor ratio. What a great looking burger. It's hard to imagine how such a creation could be so bland but it was. It seems almost mathematically impossible to combine so many ingredients into such a meekly flavored end product. This was way less than the sum of its parts.

Again, I almost always agree with Al and I don't mean to contest him at all. In fact, it's entirely possible that they've tuned things up in the 6 months since I was there. Or maybe we just hit GHBB on a bad day. However, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence that 48 hours ago, I was remembering this meal as being one of my most disappointing in 2012. Since the images show how well-cooked and nicely composed the food was, I figured they were worth posting. If GHBB can bring the flavors into the same realm as the appearance of the food, I think the place could be worth the high prices they charge. Based on my single experience there, I'm skeptical that they can.

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote: In fact, it's entirely possible that they've tuned things up in the 6 months since I was there. Or maybe we just hit GHBB on a bad day. =R=

Nope. I was there about a month ago. It was exactly the same. Very pretty. Very overpriced. Very blah. Memorable only because of the sad combination of the three.

I want to love Grange Hall so bad. Grass-fed, close to my office, cute...but hugely disappointing.

Since my family does grass-fed beef, I have some theories about why the burgers are so disappointing. The main one is that having just a single cut of grass-fed beef as most of your menu means you need to be a bit liberal with sourcing. You can't source from a single farm very easily. You have to buy from a processer probably. And with the drought, a lot of people who don't normally do grass-fed beef are just liquidating their cows right off the pasture as grass-fed. They haven't been properly finished and they are usually from breeds who aren't selectively bred to finish on grass anyway.

I often have trouble finishing the beef at Grange. At least it's not gamey, but it's just not very tasty either and thank god they offer so many eleborate toppings to mask it (DMK does this too). I feel the same way about nearly all the grass-fed beef burger bars I've been to in the city and most of the "naturaL" (a meaningless greenwashing) burger places like Counter and Epic, which is especially inexcusable since those cows are finished on grain, so they should at least be fatty like the Au Cheval burger. The only exception is the Butcher and the Burger. I've had some amazing silky wonderful burgers there, the only issue being the staff seems to sometimes not understand the concept of "rare". I believe they source only from Q7 and I really respect the rancher there. I would gladly just eat the plain burger there any time.

ronnie_suburban wrote:
gorgeous








=R=

Amazing. If I owned the place I would pay you well to use those photos on the website (if they have one).

Could salt be the problem? Lack of, that is. Being green & natural & grassfed & all, could they maybe be thinking "salt is bad for you"? Which it is in excess, but my understanding is that many fine restaurants use more salt than one might at home, because it amplifies the flavor of things.

Roger Ramjet wrote:Amazing. If I owned the place I would pay you well to use those photos on the website (if they have one).

Could salt be the problem? Lack of, that is. Being green & natural & grassfed & all, could they maybe be thinking "salt is bad for you"? Which it is in excess, but my understanding is that many fine restaurants use more salt than one might at home, because it amplifies the flavor of things.

Thanks, for the kind comments about the shots.

I think more salt would be a good place to start but I doubt it'd solve all the problems. For example, it certainly wasn't the issue with the chili, which was just way too tomatoey-sweet and lacking (any) spice. Not even the "sharp" cheddar on top of it had any punch. The fried vegetables were strange because they really all tasted the same. We speculated that, perhaps, they'd all soaked together for some amount of time before they were battered and fried. But they were salted well. As for the burger, salt would have definitely helped. But the beef lacked flavor, even that distinctive grassy note that I don't normally love about grass-fed beef. That note would have been welcome here. And the burger was moist, which I often find is not the case with grass-fed. Typically, it's lean and unforgiving. So, whatever they're doing, they seem to have arrived at a disappointing outcome in an fairly unexpected way.

=R=

Roger Ramjet (he's our man) wrote:Could salt be the problem? Lack of, that is. Being green & natural & grassfed & all, could they maybe be thinking "salt is bad for you"? Which it is in excess, but my understanding is that many fine restaurants use more salt than one might at home, because it amplifies the flavor of things.

That seems like a reasonable hypothesis. It is hard to make good beef taste bland (assuming the place buys decent beef), salt seems essential however.

As to whether or not the burger is worth the price, a reasonable food cost on a 12.25 9 oz. big john burger would be about $4.50. If grass-fed ground beef runs from $6-$7.50 a lb, the cost of the meat is maybe $3.50. Add the cost of the bun and garnish at say another $1.00 (including spoilage cost on stale buns). That would mean the burger costs them $4.50 to make. So the price of the burger wouldn't make you a chump. However paying $3.50 for about 20 cents worth of potatoes and oil would. As does paying $3.00 for a bottle of Faygo (which any ICP fan knows costs about 99 cents for a 2 liter bottle), or paying $6 for a bottle of micro-brew. The burgers are fairly priced, but adding a pop and fries raises the price to 18.75, or 21.75 for a burger, fries and beer which has a combined cost of $6.00 (tops) which is a 27.5% food cost (33-35% is usually considered acceptable). So, I think the place gives you a pretty fair price on a 9oz grass-fed burger, but makes up for it by overcharging for sides and beverages (and additional toppings). Still, I think it is cool that they serve Faygo and Green River. If I go there, I would probably get the Big John and a Green River and skip the fries, but after reading what people have to say about the food, I will probably stick with my non-grass-fed, non-organic (or is it inorganic? ) standbys (which all come with fries by default).

Cost aside, I thought it was just meh.

We went to Grange Hall last night after tasting a boatload of wine at City Winery (Willamette Valley Wineries "Pinot in the City"). Maybe 8pm or so. We entered, and while we were inquiring if we could sit at the bar, and the staff had to confer about whether the seats were reserved or not, another couple walked in after us and went right to those bar seats. Yes, we could have sat there. Oh well. Tables were being cleared and there was only one party ahead of us.

We ordered the beef burger (the 6oz, not the 9oz) both asked for Med Rare, and we ordered a side of onion rings. The burgers came Med Well/Well (no pinkness but not hocky pucks). They were not hot. There was way more bun than was necessary for the amount of meat, and the meat did not have a lot of flavor. The bun was very tasty, like it had been toasted on the grill. The onion rings were barely lukewarm. Service was fine, if not particularly warm or attentive.

I'm not sure I'd go back.