I Hate White Pepper

Ok, I'm sitting here warming up, after the last trip out to the barns to check the animals. I'm watching Good Eats on The Cooking Channel and my hero Alton Brown just put white pepper in cheese soup.

Does anyone else find white pper offensive. The smell of it will ruin a whole meal for me and I can pull the smell out of a very tiny sample. People tell me I'm crazy, that it's the same as black pepper, but I can tell it's in there. I'm not claiming I can tell 100% of the time, but if I claim it's there, it is 100% of the time.

To me, it smells like moldy cow manure. I don't expect alot of people here to understand that, but to the few who do, I'll bet you'll be able to taste white pepper in a new light.

Anybody else have an aversion to white pepper?? Or am I the only guy on the planet that would rather see black flecks in his white sauce than smell the invisible white pepper??

Tim

It clearly has a different taste and smell than black pepper.

Web up "white pepper smell." All kinds of ppl reporting the same-ish thing. "Barnyard funk, cow manure, overpowering, etc"

Perhaps something called rotundone might be the culprit. In a quick web journey, I just read that in one "test" 20% of the tested subjects could not detect rotundone at all.

When I owned my restaurant there were three ingredients I would not allow in the door: nutmeg, cilantro, and white pepper.

angrychefmike wrote:When I owned my restaurant there were three ingredients I would not allow in the door: nutmeg, cilantro, and white pepper.

Probably works, as long as you don't serve Mexican or Southeast Asian food, or eggnog.

Interesting - Julia Child and Jacques Pepin used to spar non-stop about this on their joint PBS show. Julia was pro-white pepper, and Jacques just rolled his eyes every time she either insisted on using it (always citing her old-school Le Cordon Bleu training), or groused about his using it in pale sauces. Finding out after all these years that there is a biochemical reason for the preference for black pepper, above and beyond the cosmetic purpose, is fascinating!

It definitely has a different smell and flavor. I like it quite a bit, and use white pepper regularly. However, I could certainly see how someone may not like the flavor.

In general I don't use it for cosmetic reasons, and there are plenty of recipes that call for white pepper and I use black pepper instead. Black pepper is great, but I think many times it's added as a default pepper when other ones may be better. I'll frequently replace black pepper with all sorts of other peppers if I think another pepper will taste better. I'm currently experimenting with long pepper, and regularly use different chile powders, Chiltepin peppers, or Aleppo pepper in place of black pepper (especially with meats).

I like it but, yes, it does have a very distinct funk to it. Smells nothing like black pepper, and I could easily see being put off by it, as it took me a couple goes to get used to it.

seebee wrote:Web up "white pepper smell." All kinds of ppl reporting the same-ish thing. "Barnyard funk, cow manure, overpowering, etc"

Perhaps something called rotundone might be the culprit. In a quick web journey, I just read that in one "test" 20% of the tested subjects could not detect rotundone at all.

Just a crazy hair brain not scientific idea, but, because you are a framer and work around manure and barnyard.... think there might be some correlation?

I have a love/hate relationship with white pepper. Sometimes I find it enhances a dish, and sometimes I just can't go near something that has white pepper in it.

I too did a little web searching and think I found where seebee got his information, perhaps from a June 4, 2008 article in the NYT by Harold McGee. McGee expanded his comments the week following on his website, explaining that variations in processing, specifically unmanaged fermentation, can result in broadly different and foul smelling compounds in the final white pepper. Improved processing procedures can eliminate unwanted fermentation and off-smelling compounds in the final product.

But McGee points out that there is another component to enjoying white pepper, and that is it's context. Like McGee, I love it in hot and sour soup. However I reject it in some creamy soup creations. Why? My guess is that this is simply a demonstration of differences in tasters' exposures, preferences and appreciations.

Check McGee's article here (and from there you can click to his first article in the NYT).

http://www.curiouscook.com/site/2008/06 ... epper.html

seebee wrote:Perhaps something called rotundone might be the culprit. In a quick web journey, I just read that in one "test" 20% of the tested subjects could not detect rotundone at all.

That's interesting, but Wikipedia says that compound is present in "the essential oils of black pepper, marjoram, oregano, rosemary, basil, thyme, and geranium, as well as in some Syrah (Shiraz) wines." I've never noticed any of those having the same kind of funk to them. I don't know how to describe it myself. The overwhelming smell I get from white pepper can best be described as "mustiness" to me, although that doesn't quite convey it. I can see the barnyard notes and mold and that sort of thing. (When I think "barnyard," other than a literal barnyard, I think of the smell of tripe or chitterlings.) Something in that general direction. I don't notice that in black pepper. Black pepper almost always smells fresh and fruity to me. Just lively, sharp. White peppers has a more dull and damp kind of smell to it. It's hard describing it, but that's the impression I get.

What an intriguing thread. As with anything culinary, everyone has different palates, likes, dislikes, etc.
I can certainly confirm that white pepper does have a bit of barnyard mixed into the overall aroma. When I really inhale it, I find the peppery aroma hits first and strongest, and then there is a quick barnyard aroma that pops in and then fades out quickly.
I can see how this could be unpleasant, especially if someone is very sensitive to this particular type of smell. I find it rather unnoticeable unless I search for it. I don't catch any off flavors when I taste white peppercorns, even when I focus on the barnyard aroma.

When I first read through this thread, the first thought I had was of a group of beer geeks huffing white peppercorns. They certainly love their barnyard.

Thanks for all the replies, I feel better knowing it's not just me. I'm Alton Brown's biggest fan, but when he uses white pepper in place of black just so you won't see the flecks, it makes me crazy. He never mentions it has an entirely different taste.

LikestoEatout wrote:......Just a crazy hair brain not scientific idea, but, because you are a framer and work around manure and barnyard.... think there might be some correlation?

I know being around livestock helps me describe the smell/taste, but I don't think I'd like the smell/taste if I'd never been around animals. Back in the day, when critters were the major portion of my life, manure hauling was a week(+) long event twice a year. When things were moving, you grabbed lunch/supper on the go, whenever it was brought to you. Sometimes, you wouldn't even bother to wipe your hands on your pants.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, smells and dirt don't usually affect my eating habits, but the food itself was always good. A little dirt on a sandwich isn't bad, but a dirt sandwich would be a deal killer.

Tim

Very good topic, freezer pig, and I, too, thought it was just me.

When Carolyn use to used white pepper, I'd point out that it made everything taste like horseshit, and she'd roll her eyes and use it anyway.

Then...I started making gravlax. The first time I made it, I followed the directions, even to the point of using white pepper that was called for...and I liked it. Now, I won't make gravlax without it, and I have actually come to appreciate it in other dishes too.

It's possible, as discussed above, that some of my earlier experiences were with improperly fermented white pepper, but whatever the reason, I now find the taste acceptable and even desirable in some dishes.

See, there's lottsa people who say that white pepper is regular old back peppercorns with the hull removed but the same thing or something but you can't tell them it's different without a side-by-side taste test which never seems to happen. I'm glad to find affirmation and not at all surprised it was here on LTH.
Which recipes do you prefer white pepper?
It pairs well with fish sauce. In particular, I put it on cucumber salads.
While I definitely recognize the 'Large Mammal House' smell, the good overcomes the bad which isn't too bad anyway.

For me, it wouldn't be proper hot & sour soup without it.

Personally, I love white pepper. But a chef friend of mine, who trained under Alain Ducasse, always tells me--when he sees me using white pepper--that Ducasse never uses white pepper and says "White pepper is for the hospital." But personally, I love it in certain dishes.

stevez wrote:For me, it wouldn't be proper hot & sour soup without it.

I agree. Hot & sour, for me, demands white pepper. Also, when I add pepper to Thai dishes, white pepper is the one I reach for. However, even though a lot of people reach for white pepper for something like bechamel (I assume to keep it a clean-looking pale white sauce), I prefer black pepper in that.

Most of the guys who do the grinding jobs at The Spice House have one spice they hate grinding more than any other. I HATED grinding white pepper more than any other spice. Luckily, the least favorite grinding jobs are rarely the same across the staff, so that if you can't stand one thing, you can probably trade off for someone else's least favorite spice.

The weird smell/funk really does come in during the soaking of pepper in water process, and this has actually gotten much better and more hygienic over the years. If you saw photos of this process 30 years ago, you would see black pepper soaked in a small river or steam in India, which does not exactly bring cleanliness to mind. After soaking a few days, the shells softened and then the laborers would walk over this in their bare feet to loosen up the outer shells of the black pepper. So yuk, dirty water, dirty feet. Luckily there are cleaner procedures in place today. I think the factor most undesirable now is more a mold factor where the pepper is not dried enough after the water process. If the burlap sacks are filled while the product is still damp the scents from the sturdy cloth, along with mold, will enter into the equation. This happens sporadically in spice crops that are not dried properly, as the farmer is trying to get the crop out to the cooperative as fast as possible to see his income quickly. Vanilla beans are another really good example of this, if they are not properly cured, they come to us still wet, which is bad for the beans.

Each crop we import can vary drastically in flavor. When we get one where people noticeably do not like the flavor, this batch tends to be of the super fermented flavor. If only the farmers just could direct their batches to the end user, the Japanese LOVE the flavor of these super fermented berries. Americans, not so much!

I can just see David Hammond blanching over Cinnamon Girl's post

For what it is worth I remember watching one of the Justin Wilson cooking shows on PBS. He was making garlic bread and used white pepper (peppah). Justin said garlic bread was absolutely the only time he ever used white pepper.

Fascinating.
Speaking for myself (Who else? Duh.), I do notice the barnyardiness and funk, which is a) why I like it and b) why I reserve it for specific situations.
I use it when I don't want the more aggressive heat of black pepper. Sometimes certain sauces and vinaigrettes. Sometimes pate, when I want a bit more gaminess.
For some reason, clear examples of when and why suddenly escape me, but that's the principle, at least for me.

Coming late to this thread to say that to my taste, white pepper is sharper and less complex in flavor than black pepper. I prefer it when I want a pure heat.

when it comes to black pepper, there is no such thing as too much, IMO. But I never thought about white pepper until this thread. And then recently I had some mashed shrimp soup from Lao Sze Chuan (Uptown) that had WAY too much white pepper (also too much shiitake mushroom - mushroom being another food item I normally can't get enough of). I understand that sort of "hot wet fur" quality now, and yeah - too much white pepper is a thing. a bad thing.

Prudhomme, in many of his recipes, uses both black and white. Any idea why?

Geo

My Mother used white pepper in her mashed potatoes. She did not like the look of the black specks in her white pototoes.

Geo wrote:Prudhomme, in many of his recipes, uses both black and white. Any idea why?

Same reason he uses both fresh garlic and garlic powder. As this thread indicates, they taste different.