ronnie_suburban wrote:
And if you're saying that restaurants should be more like airlines, that's just silly. Who on earth would argue for that? That's probably the most customer-unfriendly industry there is.

=R=

Funny, I don't see anything about airlines in what you quoted me saying? How about we just stick to what is posted?
As far as "It's always been done that way" argument goes, I can think of plenty of
things that improved with a bit of change.

It is much easier to buy one of 30,000 seats vs one of 45 so you got me there Ron!
But, please remember that if the Bulls only sell 28,700 seats instead of a full house their profits are not going to be quite as affected a
a 3 star, 45 seat restaurant with a canceled 2 top. Hence why I do not have a problem with ticketing for such a place. While I do not love how ticketing has been done so far (selling Next tickets is a PITA and having to pay extra to do so sucks...) I really think we would all benefit from a more sustainable world for the ElIdeas of the world. I could see more chefs being able to make a living running smaller places with ticketing and in the end who wouldn't want that?

mhill95149 wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote: The paradigm shift to ticketing attempts to force a fundamental change that is entirely in favor of the vendor. The diner gets zero benefit and also absorbs a substantial portion of the operator's risk.

For the most part, restaurants have been screwed for years. Party of 10 cancels 15 min prior to reservations, enough said....

Airlines, live theatre, sporting events all are able to make the ticketing seem fair, so why not restaurants? How are they so different?


I can think of one way the diner will benefit from ticketing system. The chef's can now spend more time actually thinking up dishes and cooking and less time fielding phone calls and emails about reservations.

I would consider a cancellation 15 minutes in advance to be a no show. I don't know any place that asks for a credit card with reservation that doesn't have a time limit.

As for airlines and theaters, you can rebook a flight or play if something happens. That isn't true of the restaurants with tickets -- you're just out the money. So there's a significant difference.

mhill95149 wrote:Funny, I don't see anything about airlines in what you quoted me saying? How about we just stick to what is posted?

Mel,

You said it right here in this post:

mhill95149 wrote:Airlines, live theatre, sporting events all are able to make the ticketing seem fair, so why not restaurants? How are they so different?

If purchasing a restaurant meal were more like buying an airline ticket, I think we'd all be worse off for it. Clearly, you don't.


As for this:

mhill95149 wrote:As far as "It's always been done that way" argument goes, I can think of plenty of things that improved with a bit of change.

I can too but this isn't one of them. If it benefitted both parties in the transaction, perhaps it could be. But it doesn't. It's not about change (of which I am a fan) it's about the nature of the change. In this change, the diner is asked to give up flexibility, money in advance, and assume much of the operator's risk for virtually no tangible benefit.

mhill95149 wrote:I really think we would all benefit from a more sustainable world for the ElIdeas of the world. I could see more chefs being able to make a living running smaller places with ticketing and in the end who wouldn't want that?

I can see chefs and restaurateurs spending plenty of revenue to purchase and maintain ticketing systems which they lack the expertise to manage themselves. At least in reservationists, chefs have additional employees who can conceivably learn about -- and help out with -- other areas of the operation. As those folks move up in the industry, their accrued expertise benefits both diners and employers.

=R=

Hi- I don't think that any restaurant is indispensable. There are lots of people here who can not afford a $200 meal on a regular basis. Like somebody else mentioned if I don't want to purchase a ticket for a restaurant, there are lots of other restaurants that I can eat at. This board is about so much more than just indispensable restaurants.

I hate ticketing systems, because you are stuck with the ticket if you discover that you can't go.

mhill95149 wrote:Really? Then why do you bother even coming here to talk about restaurants? If you are going to be "just as happy"why bother with LTH???

You're not serious, right? Indispensable restaurants are far from the only restaurants discussed on LTH.

Pleasurable restaurants are the kind that are mostly discussed here. But pleasurable and indispensable are not the same thing.

I really liked the ideas of tickets when I first heard of the concept.
Lately I am seeing/feeling less of a benefit to the diner.

However tickets are not all bad. The secondary market for tickets is shifting. For those that follow the Alinea/Next pages you can actually get tables at a discount now if you are flexible. Which is frankly crazy considering what things were like in the first few weeks of Next.

I love Open Table. I can see what times I can get on what dates.
If a restaurant doesn't want to use Open Table, provide the same service on your web site: a calendar that allows me to book a table online.
That would seem to be the best of both worlds. To me, just as good as Open Table, to you, none of the cost.

Jonah

My challenge with the ticketing system is that there is usually a frenzy associated with it. The result: I must purchase a table for some date in the future without being certain that I can fill that table. (Have you ever tried to collect 3 months' of availability from 6 people?) Wish I could pay a refundable deposit to hold a table for 24 hours until I ascertain whether others will be able to join me, because I've panicked for some period of time with every ticket I've purchased.

chgoeditor wrote:Wish I could pay a refundable deposit to hold a table for 24 hours until I ascertain whether others will be able to join me, because I've panicked for some period of time with every ticket I've purchased.

This kind of refinement would make ticketing more customer-friendly.

=R=

Why couldn't you set up a ticketing system that allowed for refunds if cancelled before a certain time? If I buy my tickets 2 months before the dining date, and a month later realize that it wont work, refund me the cost, maybe less a small processing fee. This could be set up on a sliding refund scale based on how far in advance you cancel. I found the alinea system worked well for me, and the variable pricing a good concept for both restaurant and patron, but I would have been very frustrated if my plans changed. I have never tried Next, but it sounds like the hoops that have to be jumped through, social media followed to get the secret codes and dates, subscriptions, etc, make it a huge PIA. It would obviously be important to structure any ticket system in a way that doesn't piss off a lot of people.

-Will

boudreaulicious wrote:I don't understand your dilemma. So you've never called or emailed to try to book a reservation? Are they supposed to send you emails inviting you to dine there when they know your schedule will permit? Obviously, this is a bit tongue in cheek but I truly don't understand why you expect making a reservation here to be any different than any other restaurant. You contact them with the date you wish to dine (may need to do this a bit further out than, say, your neighborhood bistro) and they tell you if it's available. How is that aloof or incomprehensible? And I've done exactly this successfully 6-7 times now so I can vouch for the fact that this really isn't difficult at all. Hope you try it!!

After reading this thread I realized they moved away from the lottery system, which I was referencing earlier. Searching my inbox I found an unread email with the subject "Hello From EL!" that outlined the change.

So, I guess my new feedback to EL Ideas is to always be sure to give your customer emails descriptive subjects. The removal of the lotto system would have rekindled my interest earlier.

As for the reservation system I agree with BR's post.

ronnie_suburban wrote:

chgoeditor wrote:Wish I could pay a refundable deposit to hold a table for 24 hours until I ascertain whether others will be able to join me, because I've panicked for some period of time with every ticket I've purchased.

This kind of refinement would make ticketing more customer-friendly.

Agreed. My biggest frustration with restaurant ticketing systems is having a ticket in your cart for ~10 min and trying to track down your friends to see if they can go on that day. That is the part that feels ridiculous to me - that I should be put in a position of having to scramble and then possibly make a large financial investment without knowing if my friends can even go. 24hour courtesy hold (as some airlines do - or at least used to do) would be a perfect solution.

-Dan

What about something like Momofuku's reservation system?

Have you looked into that? It's not open table, and it's not really a ticket system either.

Just want to throw my vote in: I have no problem with the ticket system at Next, Alinea, and Elizabeth. I sympathize with the restaurant owners who have to pay staff to answer phones with "sorry, we're booked" and all the costs of cancellations and no-shows. I fly in three times per year for season tickets at Next, and after the initially hype, I really haven't had any difficulty getting tickets to any of the three places on days that I happened to be coming to Chicago.

Would be nice though if you could accept odd numbered seating to address Dan's point about the difficulty of finding a companion/couple within 10 min, especially if you are not a local (I know that makes figuring out the seating harder on your end, but Elizabeth at least was able to do it for me).

Here's an outrageous idea...

You should develop an automated phone system for reservations. By doing this, you're satisfying all the traditional people that like to call a phone number, you aren't paying someone to answer a phone and tell customers you have no reservations available, and you aren't forcing people to scramble on a computer or watch social media like a hawk to know when tickets go on sale... among other things I'm sure I'm leaving out.

Every couple of months, someone different on staff can record the message or let a guest/friend of the restaurant do it so things don't get stale. Let frequent customers set up an online profile that saves their contact/credit card info and assigns them a unique pin/ID number that they can input after they make a reservation so they don't have to leave a phone number and credit card info every time. They'll also be able to get an automatically generated confirmation email. If someone doesn't have an online profile, that's fine, just have them leave a contact number and someone will call them to confirm and get a credit card to hold the reservation.

Or just do whatever you want. For every 1 person who decries the ticketing system, there are 9 others who are dying to jump through whatever hoops, artificial or otherwise, are set up.

Eater has an article today on dealing with no-shows that has a section on ticketing systems
http://eater.com/archives/2013/04/22/noshows.php

my own opinion is that it only works well in extremely high-demand situations.

TCK wrote:For every 1 person who decries the ticketing system, there are 9 others who are dying to jump through whatever hoops, artificial or otherwise, are set up.

I'm not sure your ratio is right, but your point is. There are definitely people who will "put up" with a ticketing system (or even welcome it), while there is also a population who will refuse to have anything to do with it. But for the restaurateur, that ratio is all-important. My guess is that the proportions are the exact opposite of your guess.

Are on line scheduling software really that expensive these days? Is seems to me you could just add it to your website and take calls in the evening when you are there. If my pilates studio, gym, hair salon, and massage therapist can do it, why can't a restaurant? I rarely schedule appointments by phone anymore.

My platonic ideal would be an online ticketing system with a built-in secondary market.

What I'd like to be able to do is buy a ticket online exactly the same way you make a reservation on OpenTable - you enter your desired time, and if it's not available, you can modify the inputs to see what fits into your schedule. This is much more convenient and efficient than a constant stream of emails and telephone calls.

The problem with ticketing systems is that the further in advance you book a reservation, the greater the likelihood that you're going to have to change it later on. If I book a table for 4 next week, chances are that everyone who agreed to the reservation will be able to make it. If I book it three months in advance, it's very probable that one or more people will have something come up. That's where the secondary market comes in.

Suppose, for example, you book a table for 4, only to discover the other couple has had an acrimonious split involving tears, highly improbable suppositions on each others' lineage, broken crockery, traumatized pets, police tape, and/or fire(s). Your four-top is now a two-top, and you're on the hook for two rather expensive tickets.

Instead of going online and stress out trying to find various buyers at the last minute, you should be able to cancel directly through the exact same system you purchased the tickets from in the first place. What happens next is as follows:

1. The tickets now become available via the original purchasing system. Between the time they are 'cancelled' and the date of the reservation, anyone trying to book online will see those spots available for purchase.
2. If those tickets are re-sold within a certain grace period (say, up to 7 days before the day of the reservation), then the original owners of the tickets are not charged. They've given up their spot, but somebody else was available with plenty of notice. Nobody's harm, no foul.
3. If those tickets are re-sold later than that (say, 6 days or less until the date of the reservation), then the price of the tickets for re-sale gets reduced in the hopes of increasing the chance of a sale, and the original purchasers are liable for the difference. The scale can change the closer it gets to the reservation date - an additional 10% off for each day headed into the reservation.
4. If those unused tickets are not sold, then the original purchaser is liable for the full cost of the tickets.

This manages to reduce risk for the restaurant owner, while also helping mitigate some of the risk borne by the customer.

phillipfoss wrote:Open table is a rip off. A lot of systems are trying to move in on their ground, but same story... So far.
Very curious to hear what you dislike about our system.

I don't know anything about the economics of OpenTable, so I'd love to hear more details about your issues with it.

One of the issues w our current system is the amount of time we spend telling guests we don't have space available. I would like to avoid ticketing b/c I like the interaction involved, and if we were to adopt it, we would do it differently.

As mentioned above, the calender system on OpenTable is its biggest appeal; it's much easier for both you and the customer to handle it electronically than to spend a lot of time trying to explain each others' schedules.

Much contemporary fine dining has crossed the line from simply eating a meal into gastrotainment, where the food, décor, service, lighting and audio are all elements of a staged theatrical event, like a play or concert where the consumption of food is the artistic focus. It only makes sense to apply the same business model used for other entertainment venues. For a simple meal, selling tickets is ridiculous, but for an elaborate choreographed event where timing and execution are essential and the ultimate goal is to play to a full-house for each performance, the ticketing model is a logical step. The restaurants might do well to leave the ticket sales to services that are in the business of selling tickets and just focus on the show.

I'm very disappointed in this new system. As an former IT professional, I don't mind using on-line systems at all. In fact I usually prefer it. I've dined at Alinea four times before and enjoyed it immensely. Wonderful food adventure. Outstanding service. I thought the pricing was very fair for what you received.

So when our friends where coming from the UK we wanted to share the experience with them. We purchased four tickets. No problem. Two months in advance. It'll end up at about $1,500 with alcohol and wine added.

They had to change their airline tickets; leaving a day early. We knew we had a problem with fifty eight (58) day advance notice. So we now were the proud owners of four Alinea 'tickets.' Yes; we can still go there to dine. We live in Chicago; lucky us as opposed to many other proud Alinea ticket owners whose plans changed.

But I've spent about twenty plus hours playing the Facebook and Craigslist game so far. At my hourly rate I'm now at about $2,500 in to just trying to resell my tickets and they're not resold yet. Trying to set up two tops with people who don't even know each other going to dine together for six hundred plus dollars per couple? I would never allow this at my fine dining establishment. A recipe for disaster!

I've lost my love of Alinea. This is service at it's worst. I feel 'responsible' for anyone who has to meet up at the table. And, of course, I've had lots of people who want to pay for just two people but get the whole table for four. And lots of spammers. And lots of price negotiators. And lots of people contacting me, e-mailing and calling back and forth and then canceling. And no four topper as of yet.

And all this is so Alinea doesn't have no-shows? I'm so glad I can help with their business model. The ten thousand dollars I've spent dining there in the past doesn't seem to contribute enough. As a former business owner, I understand their challenge of filling all seats and maximizing profit. But if this is their new model, it's not one that I'm going to help them test.

I wouldn't even mind paying a cancellation fee; even 25% within 30 days. I understand that. Or if their reservation system allowed you to put your reservation back on it and see if it was repurchased. Not difficult from an IT perspective. Even if there's a 'restocking fee' of say 10%.

But this game is not amusing to me. I will not longer be an Alinea guest after this transaction nor will I recommend it. In fact, I will anti-recommend it. Too bad. It 'was' a great place. A loss to Chicago and a poor business model for all restaurants to follow.

bethcaneat wrote:So when our friends where coming from the UK we wanted to share the experience with them. We purchased four tickets. No problem. Two months in advance. It'll end up at about $1,500 with alcohol and wine added.

They had to change their airline tickets; leaving a day early. We knew we had a problem with fifty eight (58) day advance notice. So we now were the proud owners of four Alinea 'tickets.' Yes; we can still go there to dine. We live in Chicago; lucky us as opposed to many other proud Alinea ticket owners whose plans changed.

Something similar happened to my friends and I recently. It caused quite a bit of tension in our group. And it's not the first time it has happened. I've ended up dining with random people I found on FB or Craigslist. Mostly this has been fine, but a lot of the time it's awkward and it's also a waste of my time to have to spend selling the ticket all over the internet. It means you can only dine at these places with people who are very firm about keeping a reservation and who never will get sent on business trips or anything like that. That limits your clientele. That might be OK economically if demand outstrips supply, but it's bad customer service.

I kind of wonder how ticketing has been going for Alinea. I guess I'm just surprised when all I hear about is how impossible it was to get a reservation pre-tickets. Going on the website now you basically have your pick of any day you want in October and November, albeit sometimes you might have to dine as early as 6 or as late as 9.

Maybe it was always like this and stories of never getting in were wildly exaggerated.

d4v3 wrote:Much contemporary fine dining has crossed the line from simply eating a meal into gastrotainment, where the food, décor, service, lighting and audio are all elements of a staged theatrical event, like a play or concert where the consumption of food is the artistic focus. It only makes sense to apply the same business model used for other entertainment venues.

Hi Dave,

My favorite entertainment venue, The Chicago Symphony Orchestra, has a very fair cancellation policy. You can cancel your tickets to any performance up until two hours before the show, and you get full credit into your account minus a $10 re ticketing fee. If you cancel due to a last minute change in program (no interest in hearing the music performed under the 2nd string conductor or a substitute soloist, for example), there is no loss of the $10. But you must use the credit by the end of the season, or you lose it.

TCK wrote:I kind of wonder how ticketing has been going for Alinea. I guess I'm just surprised when all I hear about is how impossible it was to get a reservation pre-tickets. Going on the website now you basically have your pick of any day you want in October and November, albeit sometimes you might have to dine as early as 6 or as late as 9.

Maybe it was always like this and stories of never getting in were wildly exaggerated.

Without a financial commitment it was pretty easy to block out a date at some point in the future and hope you could make it. When there's no penalty with cancellation then you can hold onto the date for as long as you like. I was guilty of this myself at Alinea as my wife and I had things come up on a couple of occasions where we ultimately had to reschedule. With the commitment of a prepaid ticket I know I would wait as long as possible to confirm, so I think that's what you're seeing.

I've got no problem with the ticketing system - it's the transfer/resale system that I hate.

I'm with bethcaneat's comments above - if everything is electronic, then there's absolutely no reason why the restaurant can't re-sell a ticket themselves and charge a 'restocking' fee for the inconvenience.

It makes much more sense for the restaurant itself to resell it on its own website - if someone wants to cancel their tickets for a 10% fee. It gives them control over scalpers (who can't profit from a ticket sale back to the restaurant), and makes it easier for both the seller and the buyer. And if that seat can't be filled, then they can charge the original buyer - it's not the money that bothers me, but the time and effort required by the buyer to transfer the tickets if plans have to change.

None of these features are going to happen because the restaurants in Chicago doing ticketing are using a hacked together system that from everything I have heard is made, tested, and approved by one developer. If you want sustainable high-quality software you hire a software team, not one person.

At some point someone else will come up with a better system. But it won't come from here.

I think that's the point, though. The restaurants don't have to deal with any of it. They are restaurants not brokers.

No backlash, no change.

=R=

I started work on a system like this for my own use. What it did was that you put down a deposit and if you cancelled you got it back minus a fee calculated based on how close to the end date you cancelled. The owner of the particular business could adjust how steep the penalty was. For my own business which is selling meat from farms, it was 0% refund 48 hours or less from delivery date, but beyond that it was 95%.