TCK wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:I was at a 3-star Michelin restaurant in Paris last October and someone in the dining room was wearing jeans. No one seemed to care, least of all chef, who came out and chatted with the diner for quite some time.

=R=

To be fair, I've seen plenty of people wearing jeans look much, much better and "put together" than people wearing suits.

I look good all the time.

I ate at Grace this past week. I thought that the food AND the service were sublime. We had quite a discussion about whether or not Grace is the best restaurant in the city (all four of us frequently dine together at high-end places and have hit just about all of the "big names"). The problem with comparing it with Alinea (our other choice) is that the two are so different in style, with Alinea's theatrical approach and unusual presentation techniques. All of us agreed that these are the two best restaurants in Chicago, head and shoulders above the others.

The food at Grace was absolutely fantastic, with one dish after another after another that "wowed" us. And each dish was composed with multiple elements plated together, each as interesting as the others. Although I am not vegetarian and I generally prefer fish/seafood and meat dishes, I ordered the "flora" menu and did not swap anything from the "fauna" menu, and I loved it all. If you had told me beforehand that I would be amazed and thrilled with a vegetable-focused menu, I would not have believed you - but I was. The bread service was notable not only for the variety of breads/rolls, but the fact that each was brought to the table warm. The desserts were particularly noteworthy as superb, which seems to be less common elsewhere than for the savory dishes - so much so that I intentionally met and complimented the pastry chef, Bobby Schaffer, during our after-dinner tour of the kitchen.

The service was absolutely fantastic too. I should add that our group has had some so-so service experiences in high-end Chicago dining lately (most recently at Sixteen). It's not that the service at such places is bad - at least, not since the Ria disaster - but when we go to a restaurant that clearly aspires to multiple Michelin stars, and the service has numerous noticeable flaws that would represent marginal service at a one-star establishment, it's a disappointment. We thought the service we experienced at Grace was exceptional, as good as any restaurant in Chicago. Absolutely efficient, and friendly, and unobtrusive, and flawless. We also appreciated the way they gave us a nice tour of the kitchen after our dinner (without any such request to do so on our part).

disagree wrote:The service was pretty amateurish (for example, three times they brought courses when a person in our group was using the restroom, descriptions were either lacking confidence or rushed through like a bad line-reading).

That's ironic, because we had exactly the opposite experience on both the points you mention. I noticed that at one point between courses, one member of our party arose to walk over to the glassed-in kitchen to watch, at the same time as two servers (runners?) entered the room to bring the next course to our table. The servers continued quietly and inconspicuously walking across the room as though that's what they had planned, then brought the course to our table when our party was once again complete. Furthermore, all members of the waitstaff were confident and knowledgeable, and willing to play along with our group's jokes and quips. (We were a bit concerned about the sommelier because he seemed tentative in his description of the first wine of the pairings, but were impressed with his knowledge as the meal progressed to other wines and we had more interactive exchanges with him.) All of this represents exquisite service, the kind you would expect at a Michelin three-star restaurant.

As for the attire, that is the one point on which I don't disagree with disagree (and this was a subject of discussion among our group also). If a restaurant has a dress code expectation, they should state it and enforce it. Grace's Opentable listing says "jacket preferred" and their website says "cocktail attire is recommended", yet the party seated at the next table consisted of two male hipsters without jackets, although that was the only party we observed with men not wearing jackets. (Perhaps I was there the same night as disagree and this was the same party to which he/she refers? This was Wednesday evening, easily remembered because it was the night it was pouring outside, creating massive flooding by the following morning.) If such attire is acceptable, then the websites should say "smart casual" or "business casual"; if it isn't, then the websites should say "jacket/cocktail attire required" rather than "preferred/recommended", and they should enforce it (they can do so by keeping a few jackets of various sizes in the closet for those diners who arrive without one). FWIW, we encountered the exact same situation at L2O, so this was not unique to Grace.

However, this was the only issue we encountered during the entire evening and, as Ronnie so wisely recommends, what customers at the next table wore did not diminish our own experience in any way. Given the amazing food and impeccable service, we were thoroughly impressed by Grace. We expect that it will receive multiple stars from the Michelin folks this fall, and we expect it to be considered among the best restaurants in the country for years to come.

When you say "ironic", what you should say is "inconsistent."

Completely honestly I'm totally jealous of your experience, because I feel like my meal there was a waste of roughly $700. I doubt I'll ever go back. Too expensive for it to be a risk.

So aggravating, really, that everyone in our party was relatively unimpressed and yours thought it was 3-star worthy. AGH. Off nights shouldn't happen at that point.

disagree wrote:When you say "ironic", what you should say is "inconsistent."

No, I meant ironic - because not only did we think that the service was outstanding (an opinion indeed inconsistent with - different from - yours), but also ironically (i.e. surprisingly, not what one would expect), our extremely favorable opinion happened to focus on exactly the same aspects of service that you mentioned, except that we observed them handling those exact same specific things unusually well.

nsxtasy wrote:As for the attire, that is the one point on which I don't disagree with disagree (and this was a subject of discussion among our group also). If a restaurant has a dress code expectation, they should state it and enforce it. Grace's Opentable listing says "jacket preferred" and their website says "cocktail attire is recommended", yet the party seated at the next table consisted of two male hipsters without jackets, although that was the only party we observed with men not wearing jackets. (Perhaps I was there the same night as disagree and this was the same party to which he/she refers? This was Wednesday evening, easily remembered because it was the night it was pouring outside, creating massive flooding by the following morning.) If such attire is acceptable, then the websites should say "smart casual" or "business casual"; if it isn't, then the websites should say "jacket/cocktail attire required" rather than "preferred/recommended", and they should enforce it (they can do so by keeping a few jackets of various sizes in the closet for those diners who arrive without one). FWIW, we encountered the exact same situation at L2O, so this was not unique to Grace.

I totally agree. It especially sucks if you put a big effort to comply with a restaurant's dress code and then you realize...why did I even bother carrying this fancy dress to work and awkwardly changing into it in the sketchy work bathroom? Whether they like it or not, other people are part of the experience. Chicago is in my opinion a very informal kind of city where a place where people really dress up would be kind of a refreshing rarity.

BTW if anyone wants to go and doesn't have anyone to dine with, my friend I usually dine with @ $$$$ places went without me and most people I know (I'm in my mid-twenties) can't afford to eat here.

I disagree with disagree and totally agree with Nsxtasy. IMHO Grace is already Chicago's second best restaurant and is certain to receive at least two Michelin stars this year, possibly three (will be interesting to see if it also is recognized in the Worlds 50 Best Restaurant list coming out late this month, but it might be a tad too new to make it this year). I have had the privilege of dining at Grace twice now; most recently went with a group of ten friends in the private dining room. Everyone of us had an amazing meal and experience. On both occasions service has been flawless; the perfect combination of knowledgeable/polished/flexible/attentive but balanced by being extremely personable and friendly. The food I have found to be interesting, beautiful, fresh, high quality and among the best tasting I have consumed anywhere. The dining room manages to be modern, elegant and comfortable all at once. Chef Duffy is an incredible person and presents as being quite down to earth and humble despite being a world class chef. I will definitely be returning this summer.

disagree wrote:I really, really wanted to love Grace. Chef Duffy's story is both heart-breaking and inspiring. I like the idea of the restaurant and the look of the restaurant. I was ready to be wowed.

I am curious what restaurants you do like? It seems like on the forum (aside from Schwa) you have opined about all negative experiences. You disliked Grace, Next, Little Goat, iNG, and El Ideas. Other than Schwa, what else in Chicago do you like?

Gonzo70 wrote:

disagree wrote:I really, really wanted to love Grace. Chef Duffy's story is both heart-breaking and inspiring. I like the idea of the restaurant and the look of the restaurant. I was ready to be wowed.

I am curious what restaurants you do like? It seems like on the forum (aside from Schwa) you have opined about all negative experiences. You disliked Grace, Next, Little Goat, iNG, and El Ideas. Other than Schwa, what else in Chicago do you like?

Indulging this personal digression here on the Grace thread would be inappropriate, if for no other reason than the resulting conversation would have nothing to do with Grace. Best to take this line of discussion private or offline.

Thanks,

=R=
for the Moderators

Ronnie, if I may:

I like loads of restaurants! But I have expectations, too.

What shocked me about grace, and this more than anything is the trend in my posting, is that it was clearly "off" in a way that made little sense to me. Our collective experience was that grace failed to deliver in a manner that was very note-worthy. I feel that I'm the customer. Even at restaurants with chefs from whom people want autographs.

I don't feel the need to be the 1,00th person talking about the fries at au cheval.

Which are awesome.

(Also, even Chef Foss knows I like his food A LOT.)

I went to Grace some weeks back, and must say, my experience parallels disagree's report more than anyone else's report. The dishes are STUNNING to look at--they could have been photographed as art. I do mean stunning. But then, they should be. They had 17 cooks that night (15 on payroll, two doing a stage) for a total of 69 covers that night.

But beyond the beautiful appearance, there was, IMHO, too much going on, on the plate. If I were writing a professional review, the headline would be "Cacophony." The flavors, to me, did not marry well. I don't remember a single dish, these several weeks later, in terms of various ingredients. Certainly no "wow" experience or even being impressed by the flavors. I felt the chef was working too hard to impress and present complexity, to the dish's detriment.

I also agree the service was not what I would expect at this price point. My partner does not like seafood, so when we arrived, I reminded the hostess of this as I had also provided it when we made the reservation. "This is no problem, the kitchen can certainly accommodate this request." When the captain came over, we reminded him--and he seemed to have had no prior knowledge of this. His solution? "Most dishes have seafood, so you're better off to order the flora menu." That isn't an accommodation and I'm sorry, for $185 p/p before wine, cocktail, tax or tip, that just isn't sufficient. Also, dishes were announced inconsistently. Sometimes with just a few words, sometimes with elaborate descriptions, depending on who was making the announcement.

I once sat at a table next to Danny Meyer in NYC, who is a friend, and we were discussing the meal that night. He asked, "Would you go back?" "Yes" I replied. Danny said, "That's really all that matters, at the end of the day, right?" And he was right. I don't think I would go back to Grace. There was nothing wrong, other than cacophony. The plating was beautiful. But the flavors didn't meld, and it was fairly unmemorable, from a culinary standpoint. And it cost just under $500 per person that night. Thanks, but....too many other options in town.

I have to completely agree with DutchMuse and disagree that the food at Grace is entirely forgettable and not at up to the international standard to which they aspire. I, too, had high hopes and planned my trip last month around my reservation at Grace because I liked my meal at Avenues when Duffy was there. I used to live in Chicago and still fly in 3X weekends/year for season tickets at Next, and I would strongly recommend Schwa, El Ideas, Next or even Topolobampo, Elizabeth and North Pond over Grace.

The discussion in this thread reminded me of my very pleasant back-and-forth with uhockey on chowhound about Grace (he liked it: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/894601) So, in the interest of time, I will just copy and paste the relevant parts of my posts on that thread as the rest was about L20, Tru, Sixteen, Elizabeth and Goosefoot etc.:

It's really just the food that is holding Grace back from greatness, because it does have a beautiful dining room and bathroom, a treasure trove of a wine list, and rigorously trained staff (my own dinner had a few problems with the service at Grace, but I don't care and still tipped fairly well). I admit it is still possible that Grace could get 2 or even 3 michelin stars on the strengths of everything besides the food, as that does seem to happen all over the world. But those kind of 2 and 3 star places tend not to have much of a waiting list or are living off their past glory (I was able to change my early Friday reservation to a later seating just a few days before).

My two guests—both of whom have worked with some famous restaurants—and I all agreed that the dishes were all ok, but there wasn't a single course we would want to eat again, or anything that inspired us to come back anytime soon. Several others have described the flavors as "muted" or "one-note," and I agree. Duffy consistently leans too heavily on a single fancy ingredient (caviar or Matsuzaka on the fauna menu, or preserved carrots or fried sunchoke on the flora). Good ingredients are important, but frankly they need to be cooked and combined somehow to become even more delicious, otherwise you could get the same thing at many other more casual places (this was especially true on the flora menu).

Duffy's basic dish composition seems to be a main attraction with a little bit of fat—though not too much butter/cream—a splash of acidity to cut through it, and then a piece of crunchiness. Nothing wrong with this philosophy—Stephanie Izard does the same thing to much greater, and cheaper, success a few blocks away at the Girl & Goat. Duffy also seems to have a sweet tooth, apparently reflecting his background in pastry, and both the food and wine pairings have a noticeable shot of sugar (I couldn't even finish half of my desert courses, but that just might be my own tastes). At the end of the day, I am looking for flavors that make me say "wow, I want to eat that again," and that just never happened for me (though one of my guests said he did like the piece of Scottish salmon, but that it was not as good as what he had the night before during the kaiseki menu at Katsu).

Grace and Curtis Duffy openly talk about ranking among the 3 michelin star/food worth a trip places like The Fat Duck, Noma, L'Arpege, El Cellar de Can Roca, Da Vittorio, Kitcho etc. Again, Grace wasn't bad and it was a bit better than Avenues, but "corporate constraints" are no longer an excuse and I am not confident that Grace will become a "destination" restaurant.

For me and my friends, I think we would all agree that Grace was technically perfect and the space and courses looked like modern art, just that the taste was nothing special. So I agree with uhockey on "flawless technique," "brought to a completely different level by...the presentation...something visual," and "familiar flavor profile." But for all the fancy looks and impressive knifework or modernist wizardry, I think the taste was just too familiar to the point of boring. I'm not a traditionalist: I really love the modernist wizardry at Alinea and Le Calandre but I do have a problem when the food doesn't taste good or is bland (see also Sant Pau and Moto).

I do remember saying to myself with the sunchoke course, "this tastes just like any fried artichoke in a Jewish restaurant in Rome, or elsewhere." My friend said the Matsuzaka beef was good, but not as good as what he had at several places in Japan or even other famous steakhouses/grills (I thought Asador Etxebarri was better). I could go on and on, but after every course we looked at each other and said "not bad, but just a dressed up version of what I could get at _____ for much cheaper" or "not as good as this other well-regarded place."

I tried but I really couldn't remember what the Maitake, Poached Chestnut, and Cranberry dishes tasted like, as those were uhockey's favorites, and that was just a week after. I do however remember the Hunt menu at Next having much more flavorful mushrooms to start and a tastier carrot dish.

On the other hand, I can pretty much recite to you the entire menu of the first 3 michelin star place I ever tasted, and that was years ago (Yannick Alleno had just won his third star at Le Meurice). Or how the truffle menu at Da Vittorio ruined my expectations for truffles to the point where I never order them if they are more than 5 days old (I picked up and nibbled on the ones at Grace and thought they had lost most of the flavor). That for me is what makes a destination restaurant, not just flawless technical execution in the kitchen and mistake-free service.

If this standard seems too high, maybe, but I've paid a lot more and a lot less than what I spent at Grace, and gotten both much better and worse food. There are a lot of fancy and expensive restaurants all over the world, and I just hope I help people figure out which ones are really worth it. Hell, I think a lot of people would agree that some Michelin 3 star places are much better than others when it comes to the food.

I wasn't going to elaborate above since, again, I can tolerate bad service beyond say, L'Ambroisie's dismissal of anyone of who is not Parisian. But I will note that the service was not perfect. In my case, here's what I can remember about the experience:
• serving one friend a pairing she did not order
• twice refusing to answer questions about the other pairings besides saying it was "some reds"
• having to wait half a hour for our table (I know, not the staff's fault that the earlier table wanted to linger and drink)
• mixing up drink orders and pouring different things into the same glass
• Front of house staff were nice enough, but the actual table servers seemed generally cold (not every place has to be as fun as El Ideas or Schwa, but this was beyond stiff/formal)
To some, these problems might affect their impression of a restaurant, but honestly, I had to try hard to remember the flaws, so my lukewarm review is really just based on the taste of the courses.

Agree to disagree? I really hope Grace does make enough people happy as I really am rooting for Curtis Duffy to take his cuisine to the next level (not just because he had that inspiring life story in the Tribune). Running a top restaurant is expensive and if enough people don't love it, it won't be around in a few years for me to try again.

WSL wrote:Several others have described the flavors as "muted" or "one-note," and I agree.

I find this terribly distressing, seeing as I remember having at least three dishes at Avenues in the summer of '09 that were incredibly complex and multi-faceted. Thanks for the warning.

chezbrad wrote:

WSL wrote:Several others have described the flavors as "muted" or "one-note," and I agree.

I find this terribly distressing, seeing as I remember having at least three dishes at Avenues in the summer of '09 that were incredibly complex and multi-faceted. Thanks for the warning.

I think the Chef Duffy is doing a combination of creating some dishes with star ingredients where he wants the luxurious ingredient to be showcased (i.e. the A5 beef), but other courses I found rather complex with interesting array of flavors and textures that elevated the dish (i.e. the fish course served inside a ginger crystal with roe where you smash the crystal and mix the ingredients together before eating). Personally I like this philosophy. The other extreme I have experienced is at L2O where it seems like they so overwhelm luxury ingredients with sauces that the star ingredient is completely overpowered. At Grace I have definitely had some dishes that were memorable, had a "wow" factor and left me eager to return (the carrot dish from the winter menu was the best vegetarian dish I have ever consumed).

I do agree with another poster regarding the desserts being really sweet (though this seemed to not be an issue on my second visit). My first visit I loved the savories but both my wife and I did struggle to finish all the desserts due to the overwhelming sweetness. We found the desserts the second go-round to be far more balanced and loved them (especially the rhubarb and the cranberry desserts).

I am pretty confident Grace will be awarded at least two Michelin stars and has strong potential for three. Grace has not even been open half a year yet, so there is lots of room for improvement for Chef Duffy to impress an even higher percentage of his patrons as well as for service to be a bit more consistent (it was near flawless both of my visits, but some people have referenced having some issues arise). As for me I am already won over and consider Grace to be one of my very favorite restaurants.

I thought that the dish concepts and platings by Chef Duffy were very complex, the direct opposite of "one-note". To put this into perspective, there are different styles in cooking and presentation - not a "right way" or a "wrong way", just different chefs doing things differently. Some chefs mix many ingredients together into a single item, so that what is presented is a combination of flavors, with no way to separate them out. For example, I have found this to be true of many of the dishes from Chef Izard at Girl and the Goat, where, for example, several of the dishes are served in a small crock. Other chefs present a plating of multiple separated items, so you can taste each part of the dish separately. I have found this to be true of many of the dishes from Chef Sherman at North Pond, as well as from Chef Duffy at Grace. This latter approach, of presenting items separately on a plate, works if each of the items is delicious and interesting in its own right, and not an ordinary presentation that's no different from what an average chef might make at home. This is where I thought that Grace was successful beyond my wildest dreams. Each dish had its own set of surprising, delicious flavors to be discovered. Among the savory dishes on the flora menu, I thought the sweet pea, beet, and sunchoke dishes - those are three separate courses - were particularly amazing and memorable, and I also loved the grilled miyazaki beef I tried from the fauna menu.

As for the desserts, I love great desserts (or, as our LTH friend Evie would say, I lurve them ), although this is where I part company with a friend, who does not enjoy desserts whatsoever. Lately I have been disappointed by some of the desserts I've been served at some otherwise creative restaurants. This is where Pastry Chef Schafer shines at Grace. I thought theirs were some of the best desserts I've had at any restaurant in the past few years - just perfect in every way (and definitely not oversweet). Chef Schafer is consistent with Chef Duffy's philosophy of plating numerous items separately in a single course. For example, I loved the rhubarb dish. One of the items on the plate was merely described as a brioche, but was actually a custardy brioche bread pudding, one of the best of its kind you'll find anywhere (and somewhat reminiscent of the wonderful financier Michael Lachowicz serves at his namesake restaurant in Winnetka). This is why I loved Grace - almost every course presented a treasure of delights, each to be discovered, tasted, and enjoyed on its own, as well as for its contribution to the overall experience of the course.

It is impossible to predict how Grace will come out in this fall's Michelin announcement, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who takes issue with some of its previous awards as well as omissions. In my own mind, a place that should receive three Michelin stars is one where every dish is interesting and creative, and most are so delicious that they make me want to shout "WOW!", where the service is flawless from start to finish, and the décor and experience make everyone feel pampered, on top of the world. I thought Grace satisfied all of those requirements, regardless of whether or not the sometimes-inscrutable Michelin folks agree this fall.

I should also add, all four of us who shared our dinner at Grace have extensive experience with high-end restaurants in the United States and overseas. All considered it one of our finest dining experiences ever; in fact, we had quite a lively discussion on the way home over whether it, or Alinea, is the best restaurant in Chicago (and how Grace compares with some other top tables elsewhere).

I will add that I don't think one's enjoyment of the menu at Grace comes down preferences about plate composition. I totally understanding the problem with overwhelming one luxury ingredient with a bunch of others (ex. lots of old school temples in Paris). I grew up with Alice Waters and both love and see the limitations of her simplistic approach to letting the best ingredients shine on their own with little done to them.

On the other hand, don't take this mean I shun complexity—I thought Pierre Gagnaire's a la carte courses on rue Balzac were the best of the French Michelin 3-stars I have had in years. The difference between Gagnaire and Duffy was that I was consistently surprised and delighted by the sometimes crazy combinations at Gagnaire. (for those that haven't been to Gagnaire: for each course you get one larger plate in the middle with the "main attraction" and 4-5 smaller ones around it with something totally different in its own sauce and then pick and choose and combine to your heart's delight).

For me, Grace sort of falls through the cracks in between. Yes, there are several different ingredients on each plate that follow the fairly predictable formula outside above (luxury + dab of fat + acid/lemon + piece of crunch). But while it may look complex, it really didn't taste that much better than similar dishes at cheaper places. Ie. the fish with ginger and roe is really common at Japanese places and too reminiscent for me of a modernist version of humble Chinese dishes. Obviously, Grace's recipes worked for the two of you, and I just wish I could say the same.

So, I don't think there are any further questions, though I'm happy to answer any, but at this point I don't think much more needs to be said. I hope we get new input for months to come, as I don't want this to turn into an echo chamber with a few singing praises and others constantly cautioning.

To sum up: there are only 5 people here who have written about their experiences and 2 loved it, while 4 were disappointed. The experiences are pretty much polar opposites, especially when it comes to whether the food was mind-blowing.

Hope this is helpful to others reading this board.

WSL wrote:
To sum up: there are only 5 people here who have written about their experiences and 2 loved it, while 3 were disappointed. The experiences are pretty much polar opposites, especially when it comes to whether the food was mind-blowing.

While that is true, that is a small sample size. This site does definitely attract a lot of people with lots of knowledge and sophisticated taste. While some on this site look down at websites that have larger sample sizes leaving feedback about a restaurant as being pedantic or not of any significance I do want to point out that on Open Table Grace has received 45 ratings during the past 4 months and has the following scores (all out of 5.0):

Average Overall Rating: 4.9
Food: 4.8
Service: 4.9
Ambience: 4.7

Personally I have not seen ratings quite this high before on Open Table and think that this has some significance (currently Grace and Goosefoot are the only restaurants in Chicago on Open Table out of restaurants with at least ten people leaving ratings to have an overall score of 4.9). I am certainly not meaning to discount your opinion or the other people on this forum who were not thrilled, but am merely trying to point out that it appears that it is far more common for people to be quite impressed by Grace than disappointed.

Gonzo70 wrote:

WSL wrote:
To sum up: there are only 5 people here who have written about their experiences and 2 loved it, while 3 were disappointed. The experiences are pretty much polar opposites, especially when it comes to whether the food was mind-blowing.

While that is true, that is a small sample size. This site does definitely attract a lot of people with lots of knowledge and sophisticated taste. While some on this site look down at websites that have larger sample sizes leaving feedback about a restaurant as being pedantic or not of any significance I do want to point out that on Open Table Grace has received 45 ratings during the past 4 months and has the following scores (all out of 5.0):

Average Overall Rating: 4.9
Food: 4.8
Service: 4.9
Ambience: 4.7

Personally I have not seen ratings quite this high before on Open Table and think that this has some significance (currently Grace and Goosefoot are the only restaurants in Chicago on Open Table out of restaurants with at least ten people leaving ratings to have an overall score of 4.9). I am certainly not meaning to discount your opinion or the other people on this forum who were not thrilled, but am merely trying to point out that it appears that it is far more common for people to be quite impressed by Grace than disappointed.

I'm will not get into an argument or quantitative battle with those who really enjoyed Grace, but my experience was in line with WSL. I thought the flavors were a more muted than I expected and the service wasn't as good as I anticipated. I have enjoyed Duffy's food at Avenues. I've had better service from the same gentlemen that helped us at Grace when he was at other restuarants. There are others on this board who have had experiences similar to mine...not every negative/neutral experience is documented.

Gonzo70 wrote: I do want to point out that on Open Table Grace has received 45 ratings during the past 4 months and has the following scores (all out of 5.0):

Average Overall Rating: 4.9
Food: 4.8
Service: 4.9
Ambience: 4.7

Personally I have not seen ratings quite this high before on Open Table and think that this has some significance (currently Grace and Goosefoot are the only restaurants in Chicago on Open Table out of restaurants with at least ten people leaving ratings to have an overall score of 4.9).

ahhh yes, OTCSQ or the Open Table Customer Survey Quotient.

baseball has sabermetrics and foodies have this, I guess.

Ok, for future readers, note that I've edited my earlier post to reflect milz50's experience but I won't be keeping a tally in the future.

Since Gonzo70 has cut and pasted Grace's scores they are sort of "frozen in time" on this forum and and I want to just leave a word of caution to later readers. I happen to know a little bit about both Opentable and yelp from financial research and being based near both headquarters. So while I don't want this to turn into a whole separate topic, I do want to put those Opentable scores in perspective. Again, I'm not trying to prove that Grace is bad—I just don't think it's worth the money compared to other high end places around the world. My meal at Grace was not bad enough to make me run to every big review site to warn others, but since others have asked or brought it up, I thought I should chime in amongst like-minded folks.

All this below is just to say that I worry Grace's early opentable scores are skewed by locals who don't have a lot of international 3 michelin star experience and wanted to post raves (hey, great for them and some others users are probably well-travelled like LTH members). Of course locals will make up the bulk of the initial diners, but best locally is different from worth-a-flight. I believe that this is the issue for the LTHforum, and why we all take the time to detail our experiences here and on other forums, instead of just following yelp or Opentable religiously.

While I don't look down on Opentable or yelp and use both in a pinch, my statistical classes are warning me that a quantitative and anonymous sample of 45 is nothing and explains how Grace and Goosefoot could be rated higher for food than Eleven Madison Park and Le Bernardin (which have 251 and 364 reviews, respectively).

The other issue besides small sample size is that Opentable (and yelp) are predominantly American focused—seriously, try looking for international restaurants—while Grace is trying, by Duffy's own admission, to be the best in the world. I noticed from a quick scan of negative reviews on both of those big sites that the reviewers noted that they have been to a lot of other good 3 michelin star places and were disappointed by Grace in comparison.

Thirdly, from what I recall of Opentable's latest quarterly financials, they only have about a 5% response rate for their reviews, so reviewers are only writing in if they loved or hated it, or if they are big fans of the site. Maybe I'm biased based on my own experiences, but I get a lot of email and I have yet to rate any of the 10 places I went to last week while traveling. Not to sound repetitive, but it's been known that there is a serious sample bias here.

Finally, restauranteurs I know grudgingly accept Opentable at best and loudly deride it at worst, so the best, or the most famous, or the most popular restaurants really don't use it. There's the Alinea/Next/Elizabeth tickets, famous places from The Fat Duck to Osteria Francescana to TFL/Per Se are mostly phone call based, and then there are walk-in heavy places like Flour + Water or Di Fara pizza and Hot Doug's. Of course there is crossover, myself included, but by eliminating the best high-end and casual places, Opentable scores lose a lot of their meaning.

So an Opentable 4.6 for food at Joe's Seafood or the Kendall College dining room puts them in a tie with Topolobampo, North Pond, and Girl and Goat (and by the logic of that list, Goosefoot is better than Grace). On yelp it's even worse: I like tofu, but I don't think Tofu Guy should be tied with EMP, Per Se, Le Bernardin, and Daniel. FWIW, Grace's yelp reviews took a dive in April according to the "trend" view.

Well, count me as a local yokel who absolutely loved Grace. It's too bad that for some Grace was a less than great experience. However, to be dismissive of positive reviews because you don't think that people have the right kind of dining "experience" is ridiculous.

milz50 wrote:I'm will not get into an argument or quantitative battle with those who really enjoyed Grace, but my experience was in line with WSL. I thought the flavors were a more muted than I expected and the service wasn't as good as I anticipated. I have enjoyed Duffy's food at Avenues.

Unfortunately -- because I admire chef Duffy greatly and want him to succeed -- I have to say that I agree. Admittedly, we were there only a month after they opened but I was a bit disappointed by our meal. As others have posted here (I couldn't care less what anyone posts at Open Table), I felt that some of the dishes had so much going on that the superior ingredients and polished techniques were kind of lost. There was so much going on on some of those plates, it was hard to understand what the composition intended. Should I eat component separately? Should I make sure I have a portion of each component in every bite? Perhaps it was the initial effect of having the corporate limits removed but I felt like some of the dishes lacked restraint and could have used some fine-tuning. The overall result was that most of the dishes were not very memorable for me. Sometimes, less is more.

I also had a problem with the wine pairings. I thought it was strange that both tasting menus -- flora and fauna -- were paired with the exact same wines, course for course. Given the wine library and knowledge at Grace, this felt like an unfortunate shortcut to me. At the very least, I think it should have been communicated clearly from the outset. Once my wife and I figured out, about 3 courses into our meal, that we'd both be served the same wines, we asked to split a pairing rather than each have our own. We were accommodated, which I really appreciated.

I'm not sure why but we also sat at our table for quite some time after we were seated. If I remember correctly, it was probably about 30 minutes between when we were seated and when our service actually began. Other than that, I thought the service was fine. There were times I wished for lengthier or more detailed explanations of what we were eating but when the food really speaks to you, the staff doesn't necessarily need to. So, if I had loved the food, this detail may not have mattered to me (and there was one course where the server neglected to give any description at all). In any case, it's hard to apply a universal standard to something like this. At the time, I chalked it up to a style choice made by the staff; one that they probably assumed would be received favorably by a majority of diners. I think that's perfectly fine, even if it wasn't a good fit for me.

Because I have admired chef Duffy for as long as I have known him, and as a matter of pure civic pride, I really want Grace to be awarded 3 Michelin stars. However, having eaten at several Michelin 3-star restaurants, including a handful over the past year, I don't think Grace is there yet. As I sat in the beautiful, elegant dining room before our meal, it really felt like a Michelin 3-star restaurant. It had the feel and it had the vibe. Service at our meal was arguably at the 3-star level, or at least close to it. However, at least in my limited dining experience, it's just not there yet from a food perspective. Obviously, this is the most subjective and personal criterium of all. But in the end, Grace did not ring the bell for me personally.

=R=

jesteinf wrote:Well, count me as a local yokel who absolutely loved Grace. It's too bad that for some Grace was a less than great experience. However, to be dismissive of positive reviews because you don't think that people have the right kind of dining "experience" is ridiculous.

Well sorry, if it came off that way—what I'm saying is that I've told a lot of my Chicago friends that it's not bad and a safe place to take someone on a special occasion, but I do have to qualify that it just wasn't as good as other places at the same price point. I wouldn't be comparing Grace to internationally famous restaurants if that wasn't Chef Duffy's stated ambition.

I'm fine with just comparing Grace locally, but I think a lot would say it's still behind Alinea and I would even say Schwa, El Ideas, Elizabeth, and the 5 Next menus I've been to. But that's sort of like the difference between how I went to what was supposedly the best Middle Eastern restaurant in a big city last week, compared to what I've had in Beirut.

The larger point here on LTH, that Opentable reviews really can't get into, is that there is a small trend of reports from those who went to Grace with high hopes but came away disappointed with the forgettable food. I know it may seem dismissive, but these both positive and negative reviews are important precisely when the diners do have the experience to compare whether Duffy's cooking lives up to his ambitions. So that's why I don't think it's ridiculous to focus on both those two positive reviews and the 5 disappointments.

My larger issue on this point was that Opentable ranking of 5 stars for food at Pizzeria Locale in Boulder really can't be compared to 5 stars at El Cellar de Can Roca (I thought both were awesome, but obviously different). Similarly, I also don't look down on anyone who loves In-N-Out, because I love it too.

Argument by social media is a new informal fallacy. None of the 6 in my party do yelp/open table/etc.

One nice thing about LTH, in my admittedly short time here, is that the smaller community makes it easier to put individual comments in perspective. You can track individual people's tastes, reactions, and such. This adds great depth. I don't think people "get it wrong" here. I think they give honest accounts stemming from their experience as filtered through their personalities and wants.

Anyway, this would be different if my taco experience didn't jibe with the many. I'd give the taco another try.

But this taco is $700. And not even the many really love it.

It is very disappointing to read the negative reviews of what is now my favorite restaurant in Chicago. I have already been to Grace twice and will be returning this month to celebrate a special occasion. I do not spend that kind of money on just any restaurant. I believe in Curtis and Michael, and feel that the negative reviews here are a bit harsh, especially considering that the restaurant is less than 6 months old. My last dinner at Alinea paled in comparison to the experience I have had at Grace, in both, flavor profiles and service. Grace was not nominated for Best New Restaurant in the James Beard Awards for nothing. Try it for yourself and make up your own mind. If you love it, like I do, that's great! If you don't, then don't go back. Please don't rule Grace out based on a few opinions here.

Agreed that each person should make up his or her own mind regarding Grace. I'm delighted you love it, Epicurean.

The only issue I take with your comments (other than, myself, having a different viewpoint and experience) is your comment that, essentially, we should cut them some slack as they are under 6 months old. While I understand the sentiment, the restaurant doesn't give a discount because they are new. For what I paid--I actually looked at my credit card statement--it was over $1,000 for two--I don't want a restaurant that may be not quite ready.

I'm willing to cut a restaurant some slack if it's only been open a few weeks (or if it's only had its kitchen team for a few weeks), but after a few months, it's a level playing field as far as I'm concerned. As a point of comparison, we thought Grace was far, far better after a few months than Sixteen was at the same point under its kitchen team. We thought Grace was superb - not "superb for a restaurant that only opened a few months ago", but superb, period.

And if you paid more than $1,000 for two dinners, most of that was because of wine/alcohol you ordered, not because you paid that much for the food. Dinner costs $185 (EDIT: corrected) for either menu, so before wine/alcohol, you're around $500 including tax/tip. (Even if you get their wine pairings - which were quite generous and well-chosen - that's another $110/pp, so even with tax and tip and you're around $800 for two, not over $1,000.) It doesn't cost over $1,000 for two people to eat at Grace unless you are ordering $500 of beverages (presumably alcoholic ones).

I confess to having a desire for nice wine with dinner and I think its clear from almost the beginning of the thread what the food price per person is. I don't think anyone has proposed or implied the food alone is $500.00 per person.

Again, I'm delighted you enjoy it as you do.

This is probably deserving of its own thread, but how does any place justify charging upwards of $1k for two people to eat one meal? I can't fathom that. What is a place like that offering that cannot be obtained (in this area) for $300 or thereabouts? The ingredients can be covered at that price. The service can as well, in most cases. I'm guessing there is no justification other than the price itself.

*edit: even with alcohol, $1k+ is crazy.

By way of comparison, the cost of dinner at Grace - $185 (EDIT: corrected) - is less than dinner at Alinea, and is generally similar to several other high-end restaurants in Chicago, including Next, Elizabeth, and L2O; each of those has options that affect the price. It's also less than some other high-end restaurants elsewhere in the country, where dinner runs $270 at the French Laundry, $295 at Per Se (where lunch is $195), $425 at Joel Robuchon (although they also have an a la carte option), and $195 at Eleven Madison Park.

I've eaten at all of those with the exception of Elizabeth. I think Grace is priced fairly using that group as a benchmark.

Other people cannot determine what is a value for someone else.