[From Homepage] In a pickle: What's up with green relish?

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By Katje Sabin (mamagotcha)


When I first landed on the Northwest Side four years ago, my sister quickly planned a trip to visit Chicago for the first time. And one of the ways she and I get our bearings in a new place is to dig in to the traditional foods of the area. So, naturally, our first foray into my new hometown's offerings included a pilgrimage to Superdawg.

There was also much sampling of pizza, Italian beef, giardiniera, and — Chicago being the largest Polish-populated city outside of Warsaw — a healthy dose of pierogies and paczki. But the one item she chose to make room for in her luggage on the return trip? A jar of the neon-green Chicago-style sweet relish that had adorned her hot dog.

The neon relish is a must for me: it's got sweet and sour notes that pair well with the hot peppers and onions (I don't use yellow mustard).

Chipico is Vienna's pickle subsidiary, and the Vienna brand of neon relish can be found in Jewel (sometimes) and other grocers, along with sport peppers.

It's a reasonably sure thing, though, that Superdawg is not using the Vienna product. Other bright green relishes I've seen in grocery stores do not seem to match up to the Vienna flavor.

JoelF wrote:The neon relish is a must for me: it's got sweet and sour notes that pair well with the hot peppers and onions (I don't use yellow mustard).

The neon relish is not unique to Chicago hot dog stands. I have seen the same at Harvey's in Ontario as well as other hamburger stands.

I personally have never been a fan of the neon green relish. It may be a product of my upbringing, though, not having encountered that weird fluorescent colored stuff on a hot dog until well into high school or possibly even college. They just didn't really do neon green relish much around here.

Somewhat interesting to me, and the article reminded me: in my neighborhood (southwest side), most of the old timers called hot dog relish "piccalilli." Some online sources claim that this name is only supposed to refer to the neon green variety of relish in Chicago, but I can't really find corroboration for that. I've never heard anyone specifically call that type of relish piccalilli, and the old timers here say they're not referring to that, either, as neon green relish wasn't much a thing in the neighborhood. (Perhaps some places did it, but none of the ones I ever frequented.) And they're definitely talking about a standard pickle-based relish, not something like the various other types of piccalilli you might get in the Midwest and beyond. (Actually, I just double checked the conversation. There are a couple who did make the neon green distinction; most used the term to mean any hot dog relish in general, including one gentleman who says he hadn't even heard the word "relish" until he left the neighborhood [Brighton Park]).

Clever photo. An inside joke that any Chicagoan can appreciate.

I remember there once was a short lived sitcom on TV. I believe it starred Jason Bateman. It supposedly took place in Chicago. The situation involved 3 brothers that moved in together into an apartment across the street from Wrigley Field (before all the rooftops were owned by investors). The 3 brothers had completely different personalities. One was a slob, one was a neat freak, and the third was.... well, I am not sure. That is probably why the program was cancelled, the Odd Couple paradigm just doesn't work as the Odd Trio, unless the story involves bears.

At any rate, the program's opening montage took place on the rooftop of the brothers' building. The 3 siblings' were all decked out in Cubs gear and grilling hotdogs. The writers could have at least made one of the bros a Sox fan (and the third could have been... well maybe a Fire fan). As they were "dragging their dogs through the garden", they (for some unspecified reason) started throwing bits of food at each other, because that's what brothers do. The confrontation quickly escalated into a full fledged food fight culminating in the slovenly brother attacking the neat freak brother with a squirt bottle of Ketchup!. EPIC FAIL! Go directly to jail and do not collect $200, and never have a writer from LA write a sitcom about Chicago. I am sure the network was inundated with irate (or at least mocking) phone calls.

jlawrence01 wrote:

JoelF wrote:The neon relish is a must for me: it's got sweet and sour notes that pair well with the hot peppers and onions (I don't use yellow mustard).

The neon relish is not unique to Chicago hot dog stands. I have seen the same at Harvey's in Ontario as well as other hamburger stands.

When I was a wee lad, I lived in Boston where we had "picalilly"(sp?) , which was green relish already containing yellow mustard, which gave it a bright green hue. Of course, I was so little, it may have been restricted to a few places closest to my home, and I thought it was every where.

Solid article, Katje. Funny you should mention Fluky's. It was my first experience with the 'neon green' at the age of five when accompanying my friend Sam with his divorced father on his Saturday visits to see his son. Always got good eats.

Is it just me or does the neon green seem a bit drier than the olive green counterpart? Hate a soggy dawg...

Salut,

Jay

Binko wrote:Somewhat interesting to me, and the article reminded me: in my neighborhood (southwest side), most of the old timers called hot dog relish "piccalilli." Some online sources claim that this name is only supposed to refer to the neon green variety of relish in Chicago, but I can't really find corroboration for that. I've never heard anyone specifically call that type of relish piccalilli, and the old timers here say they're not referring to that, either, as neon green relish wasn't much a thing in the neighborhood. (Perhaps some places did it, but none of the ones I ever frequented.) And they're definitely talking about a standard pickle-based relish, not something like the various other types of piccalilli you might get in the Midwest and beyond. (Actually, I just double checked the conversation. There are a couple who did make the neon green distinction; most used the term to mean any hot dog relish in general, including one gentleman who says he hadn't even heard the word "relish" until he left the neighborhood [Brighton Park]).

I also grew up with the term picalilli being used for pickle relish, but in my case the derivation is a lot clearer. My Dad was a Brit, and picalilli is an old British term, and one of a number of anglicisms we used in my north suburban home. I suspect the term was adopted from Irish immigrants on the SW side, but it definitely did not originate there, nor does it only apply to Chicago, neon relish. A lot of US regional terms still derive from older English terms, if you want to go looking, so it is not surprising that picalilli also shows up in other places. I do not recall if the term is still used in the UK.

I always thought it was spelled pickalilly and that variant does appear here and there, but mostly I was wrong. Guess I never saw it written.

Of course, none of that is meant to say that any of your sources or information are "wrong" strictly speaking. Words have lives and in some places picalilli now means one very specific thing, while in others it can mean completely different things. And the original source, hundreds of years ago in the UK, does not preclude there being all sorts of more recent sources. My brief research revealed another interesting picalilli branch in India. Need to find out if the term is still used there, and what people think it describes. Of course, that further supports the source of the term being the UK, and it moving from there to wherever English was spoken.

This little story popped into my mind several times while I was writing this article, and the continued piccalilli discussion brought it back again, so I'm sharing it here.

James Herriot's piccalilli story.

Enjoy!

dicksond wrote:My Dad was a Brit, and piccalilli is an old British term, and one of a number of anglicisms we used in my north suburban home.

Oh, yes, I am familiar with the mustard yellow piccalilli of the Brits which is supposed to be a UK take on Indian pickles, so far as I remember. And there is a broader Midwestern sense that refers to all different kinds of pickles, often involving cabbage in the mix (pretty sure I remember seeing a couple threads here on LTH about or at least mentioning this type of piccalilli). No doubt they all come from the same root. I never thought about the specific Irish connection myself, having just assumed it was a Midwest term that worked its way into Chicago. What was interesting to me was seeing the claim that it specifically refers to the neon green relish.

I first read the "neon green relish" = "piccalilli" thing on the Wikipedia page, which sources this article. So the Wikipedia page is incorrect, as Superdawg's "piccalilli" is NOT the same thing as neon green relish. So I thought that was that, another Wikipedia article off the mark. But then a thread came up on a Brighton Park Neighborhood Facebook page, with someone asking "did you call it piccalilli or relish?" and there was some confirmation that at least some people did specifically call the neon green relish "piccalilli." But there was hardly a consensus. Some said piccalilli and relish were different, with piccalilli being more yellow, or having mustard, or being what we might refer to as "hot dog relish" and regular ol' relish being something else. It was kind of a fascinating discussion, with one poster saying he had never even heard of "relish" until he moved out of the neighborhood.

As for whether the term is still used in the UK, I'm pretty sure it is. You can find Heinz piccalilli pickle here in the US. I last seem to recall having seen it at Treasure Island, and Meijer might have it in their UK section.

Anyhow, random musings....Also, "piccalilli" is a pain in the ass to spell.

dicksond wrote:Words have lives and in some places picalilli now means one very specific thing, while in others it can mean completely different things.

True dat! Just go looking for giardinara someplace other than Chicago. If they've heard of it at all, it's a completely different condiment.

mamagotcha wrote:But there is evidence that the addition of pickle relish was popular long before ChiPiCo changed hands: the 5¢ Depression Sandwich sold by Fluky’s in 1929 included all of the above-mentioned Chicago Seven condiments except the celery salt.

I'm not sure I completely buy into the Fluky's-created-the-Chicago-dog story. There's no question that Fluky's was an old and influential business known for putting a lot of stuff on their hot dogs. They may have done more than anyone else in creating what's generally known as the Chicago hot dog but giving them credit for introducing the now-canonical condiments in the 1920s doesn't seem to be supported by the facts. There's some discussion of these matters over in The Definitive Chicago Hot Dog thread (best known for RiverWester's hilarious "cutting corners" rants) but I'll repeat and add a few things here. One major point is that tomatoes—possibly the most distinctive Chicago garnish—might not have been standard as long as Fluky's claims. And what's with the lettuce?

On the Best of Chicago website Fluky's wrote:Fluky's became known for its "Depression Sandwich" - a Hot Dog with mustard, relish, onion, pickles, pepper, lettuce, tomatoes and french fries FOR ONLY $.05!

That's how the website reads as of today. But here's how Fluky himself told the story over 35 years ago:

In the Chicago Tribune in 1976, Charles Leroux, quoting Abe "Fluky" Drexler, wrote:"We sold hot dogs for a nickel apiece, seven items for a nickel: the hot dog, onions, pickle, piccalilli, French fries, lettuce, hot peppers."

He was talking about the early days of Fluky's. No mention of tomatoes. But clearly, at some point tomatoes made their way onto Fluky's dogs as a regular garnish.

In the Chicago Tribune in 1975, Charles Leroux wrote:One of these is Fluky's, 6740 N. Western Av. There, under a three-story revolving hot dog sign, you can sit in the spacious parking lot and have a dog (50 cents, 89 cents for a double) with the works (mustard, ketchup, relish, onion, pickle, hot peppers, tomato slices).

Tomatoes? Check. Ketchup? I don't know what to make of that.

mamagotcha wrote:When blue — not green — artificial dye was added sometime in the early '70s (some sources claim Fluky’s was the first to offer the fluorescent hue), the brightly colored substance was dubbed “atomic relish” by fans.

I'm not entirely convinced by the claim that Fluky's was the first to use bright green relish in the early '70s.

In a June 1971 Chicago Tribune article, Norbert Blei wrote:The Red Hot Special (90 cents), served on a plate by Kitty [at Bob Elfman's in the Loop], is some hot dog to behold. Half a kosher pickle; half a sweet green pepper; succulent, soft French fries; a paper cup of chopped raw onion and the greenest picalilly I have ever seen.

It's entirely possible Fluky's introduced bright green relish in the 17 months before Blei's article but I think it's more likely the condiment was in use at other places before Fluky's (I'm not at all suggesting Bob Elfman's was one of the first). At the time Fluky's was among Chicago's frankfurter elite, so when they switched to emerald piccalilly it got noticed.

Why do Chicagoans embrace relish but shun ketchup?

In The Straight Dope in 1991, Cecil Adams wrote:Ketchup smothers the flavor of the hot dog because ketchup makers add sugar to their products. That takes the edge off the highly acidic tomatoes, but it takes the edge off everything else, too.

I don't disagree with that explanation but I'm puzzled by the number of hot dog eaters who regard ketchup with horror but nonetheless gobble down their wieners heaped with syrupy relish—a condiment that, like ketchup, is one-quarter sugar by weight.

Heintz ketchup has 4 grams of sugar per 17 gram serving, or 24 percent.



Vienna brand relish contains 4 grams of sugar per 15 gram serving. That's 27 percent (but because of labeling allowances, it's not necessarily higher than ketchup).



Personally, I usually like a little relish on my dogs and don't care much about its color. I enjoy the contrasting sweet note it adds. But I think there's no surer way to ruin a hot dog than to put on too much relish—it takes the edge off everything. I'll often ask for "light relish" or leave it off entirely. For me, mustard, onions and sport peppers are the crucial trinity of condiments. Love the sports!

Finally, for no real reason here's a favorite frankfurter photo: a trio of dogs at the Vienna cafeteria—one assembled by the pros behind the counter and two deconstructed do-it-yourselfers.

Some interesting points, and you have found some sources I did not manage to dig up... but I do want it noted that I said that ketchup and relish are similar!

mamagotcha wrote:I do want it noted that I said that ketchup and relish are similar!

Absolutely. I thought it was worth highlighting—with quantitative evidence—the culinarily questionable reasoning of some pro-relish frankophiles trying to rationalize the Chicago ketchup taboo.

Rene G wrote:

mamagotcha wrote:I do want it noted that I said that ketchup and relish are similar!

Absolutely. I thought it was worth highlighting—with quantitative evidence—the culinarily questionable reasoning of some pro-relish frankophiles trying to rationalize the Chicago ketchup taboo.

I find the thought of ketchup on a hot dog simply disgusting, but there is something about the interplay of mustard with the admittedly sweet relish that strikes a chord with me. I've never really had a preference one way or the other about the color of the relish. It's more about the taste for me, and, of course, the sport pepper adds a little bit of an acidic quality (along with a tickle of heat) that I find brings the sum of the parts together in a unique way that is pure comfort to me, a lifelong Chicagoan.

I'm not completely going to defend the ketchup-on-hot-dogs thing, but the Straight Dope explanation never really made a whole heck of a lot of sense to me. One can just as easily argue that the sweetness of ketchup balances and complements the tartness of the mustard. And I think you'd have a point. As I slowly sidle into middle age, I've relaxed my views on this topic (although I will never put ketchup on a hot dog myself. I will sometimes do it with curry powder with grilled smoked sausage, though, in a kind of rough approximation of currywurst.)