Sheng Jian Bao in Chicago (XLB's less famous brother)

After an article by David Chang, my curiosity over finding Sheng Jian Bao in Chicago is piqued.

Does anyone have a recommendation on a good place to find Sheng Jian Bao? I checked the menu of Lao Shanghai and Katy's Dumplings, but I couldn't find anything similar to Sheng Jian Bao.

The World’s Most Underrated Dumpling
BY DAVE CHANG FEBRUARY 8, 2015
http://luckypeach.com/the-worlds-most-u ... -dumpling/
[...]
Sheng jian bao are similar, but the dumpling skin they’re made with is sturdy enough that it can be griddled—so the bottom is charred and crisp, like the pan-fried Northern-style dumplings. Plus it’s a yeasted dough, so there’s an additional level of flavor complexity to the wrapper. Inside, some combination of the dumpling farce’s mix of fat, soy, and Shaoxing wine creates a little bit of soup that’s explosive when it’s hot out of the pan.
[...]

lodasi wrote:Does anyone have a recommendation on a good place to find Sheng Jian Bao?

Try the dim sum places. Cai's are very good.

lodasi wrote:After an article by David Chang

Or just wait five years until they're everywhere, including mediocre versions at "pan-Asian" mall shops and a foie gras and truffle variant on a tasting menu near you.

Are you certain Cai has them? I've seen XLB on the menu, but not SJB.

The only place I've had them is in Vegas, and unfortunately they weren't the best example. I wrote about them here . . . looking forward to trying them in Shanghai late next month.

BR wrote:Are you certain Cai has them?

Yep, had 'em there quite a few times.

For that matter, if this is still accurate



then Katy's (Westmont) also makes them. (Third item in the second column.)

Ahh, the pan fried pork buns. Thanks for the info!

lodasi wrote:After an article by David Chang, my curiosity over finding Sheng Jian Bao in Chicago is piqued.

I read the same article, piqued is an understatement.

I thought they looked like pan fried XLB with slightly thicker dough, the irrepressible Kevin Pang said they were "Less overtly juicy, and some versions might have beef. But yes, SJB is like XLB for grownups."

XLB for grownups, I really have to eat these in the next week or I will die an unhappy man.

cilantro wrote:

BR wrote:Are you certain Cai has them?

Yep, had 'em there quite a few times.

They also have them at Minghin. They weren't that great (I remember the ones at Minghin better because that's where we've been going recently, but I don't think the ones at Cai were that great either--if they had been I'd remember them better). They weren't as juicy (and yes greasy) as they should be and the wrapper wasn't quite right. Now, even an average dumpling is still a tasty thing, but I don't think they are really representative of true SJB.

ChrisH wrote:They also have them at Minghin. They weren't that great (I remember the ones at Minghin better because that's where we've been going recently, but I don't think the ones at Cai were that great either--if they had been I'd remember them better). They weren't as juicy (and yes greasy) as they should be and the wrapper wasn't quite right. Now, even an average dumpling is still a tasty thing, but I don't think they are really representative of true SJB.

It's possible that I'm confusing them with other ones I've had more recently, but I do recall liking them quite a bit. Now, it's Cai, so sometimes they come out insufficiently crisped or even lukewarm. But I think it's a solid version.

G Wiv wrote:I thought they looked like pan fried XLB with slightly thicker dough

It's a yeast dough, so quite a bit thicker.

cilantro wrote:It's possible that I'm confusing them with other ones I've had more recently, but I do recall liking them quite a bit. Now, it's Cai, so sometimes they come out insufficiently crisped or even lukewarm. But I think it's a solid version.

I do think having them hot and crispy is a non-trivial part of the experience. See video below for example (in Chinese but look e.g. at around 3:30)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRmHmvCsdkU

cilantro wrote:It's a yeast dough, so quite a bit thicker.

Agree it should be thicker than XLB (but not as thick as e.g. a steamed bbq pork bun at dim sum), though I think XLB is also at least partly a yeast dough.

Pan fried pork buns today at Cia, they looked nothing like the Lucky Peach picture, tasted nothing like the description and, if this is actually what Sheng Jian Bao should be, I do not see what the fuss is all about.

Pan Fried Pork Buns, Cia 2.11.15




While I've been digging Cia lately todays lunch was barely mediocre, doughy XLB served without spoon or ginger/red vinegar, gummy chicken feet and verging on cold fun (steamed rice noodle) shrimp. Two different servers brought me unasked for forks and my order of chicken feet was met with surprise and "are you sure?"

SJB are essentially soup dumplings, but with a fried dough. Those don't look like SJB since I can't see any liquid. Personally, while I don't mind the concept, the XLB dough when done right offers the perfect balance of flavors and textures that I seek and I appreciate it's more sleek, sexy skin.

G Wiv wrote:Pan fried pork buns today at Cia, they looked nothing like the Lucky Peach picture, tasted nothing like the description and, if this is actually what Sheng Jian Bao should be, I do not see what the fuss is all about.

Second verse same as the first.

The typically delicious Katy's in Westmont yielded so-so pan fried pork dumplings, which the woman at the counter said were sheng jian bao. Neutral flavored ground pork ball, no liquid, in a plain jane doughy pan fried bun. Table chile and vinegar perked them up, but I 'm still on the hunt for the elusive Sheng Jian Bao.

Pan Fried Pork Dumpling, Katy's Westmont

G Wiv wrote:I thought they looked like pan fried XLB with slightly thicker dough, the irrepressible Kevin Pang said they were "Less overtly juicy, and some versions might have beef. But yes, SJB is like XLB for grownups."

G Wiv wrote:

G Wiv wrote:Pan fried pork buns today at Cia, they looked nothing like the Lucky Peach picture, tasted nothing like the description and, if this is actually what Sheng Jian Bao should be, I do not see what the fuss is all about.

Second verse same as the first.

The typically delicious Katy's in Westmont yielded so-so pan fried pork dumplings, which the woman at the counter said were sheng jian bao. Neutral flavored ground pork ball, no liquid, in a plain jane doughy pan fried bun. Table chile and vinegar perked them up, but I 'm still on the hunt for the elusive Sheng Jian Bao.

Third time's the charm? The irrepressible Kevin Pang recommends Moon Palace for sheng jian bao ("pork pan fried buns" on the menu): The Chinese Guy's Guide to Eating in Chinatown. Good luck!

I'm calling bullshit on these dumplings as being of any relation to XLB. I have had the Sheng Jian Bao from Katy's, and while good I didn't at the time think of them as any sort of relative of XLB. I hardly think Katy's would be selling a half assed product, so i think they are probably accurate to the style. I also give a similar respect to Cai. While I don't think of Cai as flawless, they generally know what they're doing and wouldn't be trying to pass off one product as another. Additionally, I have never understood the fetish with XLB, purely for the fact that most of the best made dumplings have a "soup", aka, a gelatinous filling which when heated should yield at least some liquid which fills the dumpling. Yes, XLB, when done properly, has more soup than average, but that doesn't make it the only "soup" dumpling out there.

Just sayin... please correct me if I'm wrong.

Look, I've had these suckers in NY, Toronto, and all over CA. I've also made them (from Andrea Nguyen's book and others). All of them used standard bao dough and the only liquid inside was produced by the fat of the meat melting during cooking. I have no doubt that Chang is able to get Shanghai's best (SeriousEats' Kenji did too, a few years ago), but I also don't think the gulf between those and what's available in the States is wide enough to justify the florid hype. Best to temper your expectations. I mean, either you get excited about freshly pan-crisped buns with a juicy, flavorful meat filling or you don't; if you find Katy's version "blah", then I don't think the "authentic" one will change your life.

cilantro wrote:Look, I've had these suckers in NY, Toronto, and all over CA. I've also made them (from Andrea Nguyen's book and others). All of them used standard bao dough and the only liquid inside was produced by the fat of the meat melting during cooking. I have no doubt that Chang is able to get Shanghai's best (SeriousEats' Kenji did too, a few years ago), but I also don't think the gulf between those and what's available in the States is wide enough to justify the florid hype. Best to temper your expectations. I mean, either you get excited about freshly pan-crisped buns with a juicy, flavorful meat filling or you don't; if you find Katy's version "blah", then I don't think the "authentic" one will change your life.

Well, 'nuff said.

FWIW, in an effort to determine whether the SJB I'd previously had were subpar, I just hit one of the Yang's Fry Dumplings locations in Shanghai last week. As with any other that catches on as THE place, I'm sure there are plenty of places that make SJB on par with (or better than) Yang's, but among those who know the genre, it seems to be commonly accepted that Yang's makes pretty damn fine SJB, even by Shanghai standards.

They were, for me, quite delicious, but I think this talk of SJB as XLB's cooler cousin is really reaching for a point of comparison. (And incidentally, though they're different enough that I'm loathe to compare them, if you tell me I'm only allowed to have one for the rest of my life, there's precisely zero contest and I'll lament my new SJB-less world for a minute or two and then probably never think of it again -- but that's a matter of personal preference.)

My experience with SJB is small, so I really can't speak to what's typical. But I can say with certainty that the ones at Yang's had WAY more soup than any fried dumpling I've had anywhere. They were gushers. Take three of the juiciest potstickers I've ever had, and between the three of them they might have as much liquid as one of Yang's SJB. That said, it's a fried bun with a ton of soup. I've had a lot of fried dumplings I enjoyed just as much as these, soup notwithstanding. They're great, and I'm really glad I tasted them, but I won't be broken up if I never have them again.

Short Version: IMO, if you're trying SJB in Chicago and thinking, "That's the crazy hyped SJB? They must be way better in China," the difference might not be as great as you suspect.

Incidentally, I like Kevin Pang, but if he did, indeed, say that "SJB is like XLB for grownups," I say bullshit.

In general, this explosion of talk about SJB strikes me less as a mission to bring secret dumpling nirvana to the masses, and more as "*pfffft*, XLB are so mainstream... if you want to know what real music sounds like, I'll take you to SJB's next show in an abandoned warehouse on the other side of town." Which isn't to say that they aren't great and that it isn't awesome that another bun is getting some attention, but... well, you understand what I'm trying to say.

Hey laikom I am here to tell you that you are wrong.

I was in Shanghai with my wife's native family for about a month a few years ago and we ate a lot of SJB. The SJB on any random street corner are better than anything I have tasted in the States. I have eaten both Cai's and Katy's attempts and find them extremely mediocre. They make perfectly fine dough but can't seem to pan fry them properly or make delicious and juicy filling. SJB are not quite as soupy as an XLB, mostly because the yeasted dough absorbs more of the soup. Trust me, the first time I ate an SJB in China I was warned about the juices, didn't take appropriate cautions and made a delicious mess.

Also Andrea Nguyen's recipe always puzzled me because she doesn't add any stock to SJB but does for guo tie. I think she is great, but in this case it may not be wise to trust a Vietnamese chef on how to make a quintessentially Chinese dumpling.

All that said, this snobbery now surrounding SJB is just stupid. Dumplings are great in all of their forms. I just love how SJB combine the textural contrast of fried bottom and doughy top with the delicious soupiness of an XLB.

Edit: My wife says Cai actually used the fluffier dough variation you see in their other buns.

When I had them in Vegas -- viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3535&start=120&sp=474689 (scroll down to middle of post) -- , along with XLB, there was plenty of soup filling. The problem was just a lack of flavor but that might have been an issue just that day (as it was with the XLB).

In any event, I'll be in Shanghai in a couple of weeks and I'm looking forward to sampling more.

I tried the ones at Lao You Ju over the weekend and came away unimpressed. Bland would be the best desceiptor, followed by no soup for you.

I have a lead on supposed great ones in LA, which I hope to sample next month during a business trip.

botd wrote:Hey laikom I am here to tell you that you are wrong.

I knew some strategically placed trolling would get the real conversation started. Glad I could be of service.

All of these facts can be true at the same time (and are):

1. The SJB in Chicago are highly inferior to the best SJB (same is largely true for XLB). Katy's will sell you plenty of stuff they are not particularly expert at. Dim sum is not the place to try to get SJB.
2. A good SJB is delicious.
3. Whether SJB is categorically better than XLB is deeply subjective.
4. David Chang knows what he is talking about. His main point was that SJB are underrated, which this thread demonstrates manifestly. His saying "golden child" was perhaps just a little artistic license.
5. A crucial part of the SJB experience is trying to eat it while it is burning hot.

To be clear, Chris (in case I wasn't), I absolutely agree with 2, 3, and 5. I'm not in a position to comment on 1, beyond expressing an opinion of where the ceiling is relative to the recent buzz. As for Chang, I was referring to the totality of a number of pieces I've read recently, not just his... though I think his is rather hyperbolic. It's plenty enough for this bun you haven't tried to be cool and interesting and super delicious and deserving of more attention. It doesn't have to be OMGZTHEBESTBAOEVAH.

Also, they're not dumplings, David. </commitment to pedantry>

Dmnkly wrote:To be clear, Chris (in case I wasn't), I absolutely agree with 2, 3, and 5. I'm not in a position to comment on 1, beyond expressing an opinion of where the ceiling is relative to the recent buzz. As for Chang, I was referring to the totality of a number of pieces I've read recently, not just his... though I think his is rather hyperbolic. It's plenty enough for this bun you haven't tried to be cool and interesting and super delicious and deserving of more attention. It doesn't have to be OMGZTHEBESTBAOEVAH.

Also, they're not dumplings, David. </commitment to pedantry>

To be clear, I mostly agree with what you wrote and did not think you were saying otherwise on 2, 3, and 5. But you de-emphasized how good SJB are (if you think they can be delicious and you place some credence in the comments in this thread on the low quality of SJB in Chicago, you'd have to conclude a rather large gap) to make your point, while Chang emphasized how great (really great!!!!!) they are to make his point. I took his article to be mostly about how underrated SJB are, not a sober dissection of the respective merits of SJB and XLB, but I don't disagree with you about the hyperbole.

Also, if SJB are not dumplings then neither are XLB aka soup dumplings (to be clear, I understand you did not say they were).

ChrisH wrote:while Chang emphasized how great (really great!!!!!) they are to make his point. I took his article to be mostly about how underrated SJB are, not a sober dissection of the respective merits of SJB and XLB, but I don't disagree with you about the hyperbole

I dig hyperbole, David Chang and dumplings and am looking forward to trying a Mind-Blowing, Awesome, Terr-Fing-ific, XLB for Grownups SJB one of these days!!!!!

When in Rome -- get the artichokes. Katy's still makes my favorite dumpling in Chicagoland. The Beijing-style fish dumpling. One of the owner's better-English-speaking relatives recommended them to me and said they are a point of pride and basically the Cadillac of dumplings for Beijing locals. I'll take her word for it, but those little suckers are at once delicate and rustic, with plenty of juice. Kudos for making buns and dumplings from other regions (which presumably are prevalent enough in Beijing now as well), but i wouldn't think of Katy's for XLB or its doughy big bro.

Number 112
Appetizer Section
Northern Style Steamed Dumplings

Northern City
742 W. 31st Street
Chicago,IL

Hombre de Acero wrote:Number 112
Appetizer Section
Northern Style Steamed Dumplings

Northern City
742 W. 31st Street
Chicago,IL

FWIW, I checked a Chinese copy of the menu, and these are referred to as xiao tang bao, or little soup bao/dumplings. This is possibly/likely very different from true sheng jian bao, which I much preferred to xiao long bao during my time in China.

JeffB wrote:When in Rome -- get the artichokes. Katy's still makes my favorite dumpling in Chicagoland. The Beijing-style fish dumpling. One of the owner's better-English-speaking relatives recommended them to me and said they are a point of pride and basically the Cadillac of dumplings for Beijing locals. I'll take her word for it, but those little suckers are at once delicate and rustic, with plenty of juice. Kudos for making buns and dumplings from other regions (which presumably are prevalent enough in Beijing now as well), but i wouldn't think of Katy's for XLB or its doughy big bro.

On a recent outing, we ordered the fish and chive dumplings and I thought they were exceptional. I do wonder if they were the "Beijing style" you've mentioned. I ordered them by that name and our server, the short gal who seems to always preside over the Westmont dining room, enthusiastically pointed to the menu item called fish and chive dumplings. They were very juicy with a seemingly 50/50 ratio of herbaceous chives and mild minced fish. I've loved every dumpling from Katy's, yes, the potstickers, but these are now in the running for my favorite dumpling in the Chi.