I get that some prefer that before you complain on a public forum about food at a restaurant that you privately let the server/manager/owner know. But for most of us eating at a restaurant once or sporadically where we don't know the staff at all, that's probably not going to happen. I will almost never do that except where I know the staff from frequenting the place.

But when it comes to the thickness/texture of the crust, amount/ratio of toppings and the like, these are things that should be readily apparent to the kitchen before sending food out. Similarly, the kitchen staff can and should be tasting sauces.

I completely agree with your post

Chitown B wrote:

Ram4 wrote:

Chitown B wrote:Following up, I was just at Burt's last week. While it was still good, I do agree it was pretty thick on the crust this time, with what seemed like must less cheese/toppings. While I like the crust, I do wish it was a bit more balanced.

But you told them so they can fix the problem, right?

I didn't. I was with old friends and I wasn't so put off by it that it warranted a comment. If I go back and it's the same, I will probably mention it.

If it were me I'd call them about it. I have done this numerous times over the years when I wasn't able or didn't want to voice my concern in person. I remember having a discussion with one of the owners of Coalfire after they completely changed just about everything I loved on their sausage pizza a few years ago (the cheese, sauce and sausage were all different and I wanted to know why). I have found owners and managers to be very appreciative of this kind of personal feedback because if they really care about their product they do want to know whether it's a complement or a complaint.

Ram4 wrote:I remember having a discussion with one of the owners of Coalfire after they completely changed just about everything I loved on their sausage pizza a few years ago (the cheese, sauce and sausage were all different and I wanted to know why).

What was the result of your conversation?

Regards,
Cathy2

BR wrote:I get that some prefer that before you complain on a public forum about food at a restaurant that you privately let the server/manager/owner know. But for most of us eating at a restaurant once or sporadically where we don't know the staff at all, that's probably not going to happen. I will almost never do that except where I know the staff from frequenting the place.

I too agree w/ this 100%. And it isn't even really in conflict w/ Chitown or Ram. The approach Ram suggests (personal explanation of problems before, or even after, posting publicly) is something you do if the people running or owning the place are friends. If one's not a serious regular and has no personal relationship with the business, I feel as though your loyalty is to the public reading your posts. If you bring the issue to the restaurant's attention first (save for complaining immediately where they can remedy it prior to public commentary) it seems like the loyalty is stronger to the establishment than the consuming public. It's near impossible to be as critical of the experience if you've already reached out directly and they've apologized and said they'll do whatever possible to make it right going forward.

I think businesses have a far greater responsibility to monitor and react to what looks like credible good faith public commentary, than customers do to give businesses a chance to preemptively improve commentary based off real life experiences in the first impression.

BR wrote:I think businesses have a far greater responsibility to monitor and react to what looks like credible good faith public commentary, than customers do to give businesses a chance to preemptively improve commentary based off real life experiences in the first impression.

I get your point. To a certain extent, these forums are a form of journalism. We are here to report what happened. We're not consultants charged with the responsibility of improving restaurants.

riddlemay wrote:

BR wrote:I think businesses have a far greater responsibility to monitor and react to what looks like credible good faith public commentary, than customers do to give businesses a chance to preemptively improve commentary based off real life experiences in the first impression.

I get your point. To a certain extent, these forums are a form of journalism. We are here to report what happened. We're not consultants charged with the responsibility of improving restaurants.

One can argue the theories of responsibility all they like but there's no more efficient way to give an operator feedback than going direct, and going direct never requires having to be confrontational. Nor does it mean having to provide feedback in person or during the actual dining experience.

=R=

I have been imagining this scenario...

Customer: "I want to talk to the owner."
Owner arrives
Customer: "I think the crust is too dense and there aren't enough toppings"

I'm sure he will jump on it right away.

Chances are they made these changes on purpose and were an executive decision (thinking about the big changes to all aspects of the Coalfire pizza).
Maybe he has different tastes than you?
Maybe a part of a cost cutting measure?

Panther in the Den wrote:I have been imagining this scenario...

Customer: "I want to talk to the owner."
Owner arrives
Customer: "I think the crust is too dense and there aren't enough toppings"

I'm sure he will jump on it right away.

Chances are they made these changes on purpose and were an executive decision (thinking about the big changes to all aspects of the Coalfire pizza).
Maybe he has different tastes than you?
Maybe a part of a cost cutting measure?

I have to disagree. Yes it could be the reason but half the time it could easily go the other way with the owner saying something like: "The crust should NOT be too dense and/or we are always generous with the toppings. Thank you for letting me know. We have a new cook/I will talk to my staff/etc." When I let a manager or owner know my displeasure about something, I fully understand that sometimes what I don't like about the pizza is actually how they want it served as you said Panther. But sometimes the kitchen screwed up and they want to know so they can address it. Therefore, I will usually say something if it's a place I like the food at.

Since Cathy asked here's what happened with Coalfire. Ever since they opened I loved getting a sausage pizza there. Low moisture, whole milk mozzarella with fennel sausage from Bari, and that great sauce on top. It was really one of my favorite pizzas anywhere, and for years I would eat it up.

I know they tweaked the default sausage pizza on the menu in 2013 or so and added other toppings, but they still would give me the old sausage pizza that I loved. When I was there in 2016, this wasn't the case at all. What I ended up with was a virtually sauceless, bland pizza with crumbled Berkshire sausage (like Quad Cities style) and fresh mozzarella. It was such a letdown I couldn't believe I was sitting in Coalfire. The server had no idea they used to have both whole milk mozzarella and fresh mozzarella on the various pizzas (and you could choose which one you wanted if you built your own). Apparently it's now all (or mostly) fresh mozzarella. I wanted to talk to one of the owners, but he wasn't around. It was at that moment I was coming to the realization that one of my favorite pizzas was forever changed. Whole milk mozzarella has a lot of fat and that equals flavor to me. Fresh mozzarella is fine, but not by comparison. And what happened to the sausage? It was like birdseed. And barely any sauce at all. I decided to call the owner when they weren't busy and he was very nice during my interrogation of him . He said they did pretty much get rid of the whole milk mozzarella and were using fresh for all the pizzas. Not a deal breaker, but a disappointment for me. He said they stopped using Bari because they were not dependable. Fine. But what happened to the delicious sauce? He said he changed it as well. He doesn't like oregano and pretty much took it out among other things plus the previous partner who left to open Armitage Pizza wanted to save money on ingredients and now they were using higher quality ingredients. I told him that wasn't an issue for me if the end result was better in the past. He then said something amazing. Knowing I would drive from Highland Park just to eat there he said if I called ahead he would make the old pizza for me. He would use the whole milk mozzarella and would get the sausage from Bari. I was blown away by his generosity. "But how are you going to bring back the old sauce?" "I can't." That was what I figured he would say; sauce is a lot of work. I never took him up on that offer (and I don't want to make him go to all that trouble), but it was a great conversation with an owner (one I had not met before) that was open to feedback (good or bad).

Geez, now I HAVE to go down to Burt's 2.0.

I don't know the details, but I do know that when the business was sold from Burt and his family to the new guys, part of the package was the pizza recipe. And whether it was a favorite of yours or not--and Burt's incarnation was for me--it was distinctive. Even if I was blindfolded I would know it was his.

But with different cooks/ovens, maybe different vendors/ingredients, who knows? Maybe without Burt it was impossible to replicate. I do remember them tweaking it for months--Buddy Roadhouse used to report that.

So I've gotta get myself down there soon--I still remember what it should taste like--it wasn't always my favorite but damn if it wasn't always consistent.

Panther in the Den wrote:I have been imagining this scenario...

Customer: "I want to talk to the owner."
Owner arrives
Customer: "I think the crust is too dense and there aren't enough toppings"

I'm sure he will jump on it right away.

If handled this way, I'm also sure it would go nowhere. There are countless more effective ways to write this script.

=R=

MarlaCollins'Husband wrote:The crust... looks like a dense overworked piece of dough...

Diane wrote:... made some suggestions at that time- mostly seasoning suggestions.

Chitown B wrote:... much less cheese/toppings.

jnm123 wrote:... when the business was sold from Burt and his family to the new guys, part of the package was the pizza recipe.

Doesn't sound like they are using the old recipe?

Time to stop reminiscing about the old days and let the new restaurant stand on its own.

Jesu Cristo, Panther. That's what we do here. Reminisce, compare this to that, that to this. Fair? Sometimes not, but no one said the Internet is fair.

The pizza at 2.0 will either be a success on its own or it won't. If it is, kudos to the new owners.

I will say, however, and I think we've all been guilty of this--our food memories of days gone by get skewed by time and also our physical abilities to 'handle'/process/digest it!

Case in point--I used to love Eastern Style Beef foot-long grinders (either in Skokie or in Rogers Park) from high school and into my 20's and 30's. Hadn't tasted one in 25+ years, until recently. OMG, it wasn't terrible but the fact that it just looked so bad for my health almost had me looking for the paddles.

Panther in the Den wrote:Doesn't sound like they are using the old recipe?

Time to stop reminiscing about the old days and let the new restaurant stand on its own.

I , for one, would not have entered the fray if I had liked the crust on my order. The issue is much more about it being unsatisfactory than being different. I provided photos to show that it was not a matter of changing tastes or false memories.

scottsol wrote:

Panther in the Den wrote:Doesn't sound like they are using the old recipe?

Time to stop reminiscing about the old days and let the new restaurant stand on its own.

I , for one, would not have entered the fray if I had liked the crust on my order. The issue is much more about it being unsatisfactory than being different. I provided photos to show that it was not a matter of changing tastes or false memories.

You actually just proved Panther's point.

Your version of "unsatisfactory" might be different than what the customers want.

I'm willing to bet dimes to doughnuts that 80+% of the people, and that number shrinks daily, aren't doing a "this isn't Burt's 1.0" test.

Is Burt's 2.0 crowded?

Are they doing a bang up business?

Change is inevitable. Burt is gone and so is his exclusive pie. There is a replica available.

A replica.

By definition its not the same.

I enjoy 2.0 on its own merits, and don't get lost on what it isn't.

What has been lost, here, is that we don’t know if the dense crust is the new standard at Burt’s or an example of a correctable inconsistency.

Equivocation discussion, meaning important, bearing opinion from where it udders. Cry, spilt milk, a bar on Fullerton Ave.
∞

I revisited Burt’s Saturday night and the result was much better. A much airier crust and more flavor to the toppings and sauce.

I also noted after the fact that Burt’s now offers a “Half Dough” version for those who want a lower dough to toppings ratio.

For those who think the product should not be compared to the original I quote the current website:

IT IS OUR GOAL TO CONTINUE MAKING PIZZAS TO THE ORIGINAL STANDARDS OF BURT’S PLACE

From the original recipes to the finest ingredients, it is our pledge to produce pan pizza only the way Burt could make them.

I want to go so I can weigh in on the great crust debate. What’s the current procedure for getting a table on a weekend? I recall whispers about an additional oven making call aheads unnecessary, but was it just a rumor?

Bok Choy Jr wrote:I want to go so I can weigh in on the great crust debate. What’s the current procedure for getting a table on a weekend? I recall whispers about an additional oven making call aheads unnecessary, but was it just a rumor?

I’m planning to go too but to pickup a pizza to go during the week at lunch.

No rules any more with the heated (?) tent but I would call.

Shouldn’t be that busy anymore.

Panther in the Den wrote:

Bok Choy Jr wrote:I want to go so I can weigh in on the great crust debate. What’s the current procedure for getting a table on a weekend? I recall whispers about an additional oven making call aheads unnecessary, but was it just a rumor?

I’m planning to go too but to pickup a pizza to go during the week at lunch.

No rules any more with the heated (?) tent but I would call.

Shouldn’t be that busy anymore.

They are closed on Monday. The rest of the week they open at 4:30 pm.

Panther in the Den wrote:

Bok Choy Jr wrote:I want to go so I can weigh in on the great crust debate. What’s the current procedure for getting a table on a weekend? I recall whispers about an additional oven making call aheads unnecessary, but was it just a rumor?

I’m planning to go too but to pickup a pizza to go during the week at lunch.

No rules any more with the heated (?) tent but I would call.

Shouldn’t be that busy anymore.

I can tell you that I placed a carry out order at 6:45 last Saturday the pie was ready at 7:30 and when I got there about 10 seats were open.

Bok Choy Jr wrote:I want to go so I can weigh in on the great crust debate. What’s the current procedure for getting a table on a weekend? I recall whispers about an additional oven making call aheads unnecessary, but was it just a rumor?

I've always called a day ahead. I don't know if it's necessary, but I love showing up and having pie within 10-15 minutes.

https://chicago.eater.com/2019/4/9/1830 ... -deep-dish

New Location, Old Irving Park

Chitown B wrote:https://chicago.eater.com/2019/4/9/18301985/burts-place-pizza-restaurant-old-irving-park-city-location-deep-dish

New Location, Old Irving Park

My excitement plummeted when I actually clicked on the link to discover:

There’s no timetable for an opening. The building, the former Thirteen Pins Tapas & Bar, needs an extensive rehab, Petrow said. The project is in its infancy stage and part of an expansion plan. Petrow is looking for investors and partners.

Using the press to attract investors for a potential expansion? Between this and some of the questionable pies discussed/pictured above, it might be time to rename this place Anti-Burt's.

Went to Burt's for the first time the other night. Not having been during its original run, I don't know what its pizza was known for. It was fine, but not much better than an average place with no name for itself. The bottom crust was kind of dry and cracker-y, and all told, the pie was not very deep. The cheese and toppings were fine. They do a decent blackened cheese edge. It didn't give me that overwhelming sense of satisfaction that I've had elsewhere, when the crust is dense, but moist and rich instead of dry and stiff. The service was extremely nice, the patio is comfortable in this weather, and they had a world-class beer on tap (the 2018 GABF Hazy IPA gold winner, Alarmist's Le Jus) so I was happy of course. The appetizer sampler was good too.

Shouldn’t those guys master pie-making at the original location before expanding, and then make an announcement once the product and new location are locked and loaded? This will not end well.

ld111134 wrote:Shouldn’t those guys master pie-making at the original location before expanding, and then make an announcement once the product and new location are locked and loaded? This will not end well.

The pie is probably fine for the Dominos eating masses and they must be making money.

We just miss the namesake. We’re grumpy.

Lwulof wrote:Not having been during its original run, I don't know what its pizza was known for. It was fine, but not much better than an average place with no name for itself. The bottom crust was kind of dry and cracker-y, and all told, the pie was not very deep. The cheese and toppings were fine. They do a decent blackened cheese edge. It didn't give me that overwhelming sense of satisfaction that I've had elsewhere

I did eat at Burt's a couple of times when he was cooking and never understood all of the fuss, especially when there were too many rules to abide by. Just my two cents.

Al Ehrhardt wrote:I did eat at Burt's a couple of times when he was cooking and never understood all of the fuss, especially when there were too many rules to abide by. Just my two cents.

I think there was some variability. I ate at Burt's under Burt when I thought the pizza was terrific, and I ate at Burt's under Burt when the bread-to-topping ratio resembled what people are decrying under the new owners.