MungryJoe wrote:Hi all,
But for those who DO like cheesy beef, do you like it both ways (sometimes w/ cheese and sometimes w/o) or do you generally prefer one style over the other?

Cheese makes everything better, but I'm from Wisconsin.

#onwisconsin

BadgerDave wrote:Cheese makes everything better, but I'm from Wisconsin.

#onwisconsin

BadgerDave, do you like Italian beef without cheese? Thanks!

Binko wrote:

MungryJoe wrote:

Binko wrote:I don't do cheesy beef, but I do think something like an aged provolone would work well. Philadelphia's roast pork sandwich (which I think of as the pork equivalent of an Italian beef), is often topped with an aged provolone, and the sharpness of the cheese works really well with it, and I imagine it would work well with an Italian beef as well. But something milder like a deli provolone, I'm not so sure about. It needs to be adding flavor, not just cheesiness.

Binko. I've never heard of "Philadelphia's roast pork sandwich" and now I'm going to have to investigate. I had a bunch of stuff I was going to do tomorrow too—big hole in my day. But thanks! I guess I'll have to plan a trip to Philadelphia soon.

Here's a good introduction at John's Roast Pork in Philly. Roast pork + jus + shreds of sharp provolone + spinach or broccoli rabe (the latter seems to be more popular, but John's does spinach) on a sesame seed hoagie roll. I prefer the bread used for these to the bread on Italian beefs, but, while these are served reasonably wet, they're not dipped (as far as I've seen, but I'm not an expert), so they don't need to have quite the structural integrity an Italian beef roll needs to have.

It's a delicious sandwich and I make it at home sometimes (though it helps to have a deli slicer to shave it thinly enough.) I'm not sure why it isn't more popular beyond Philly. Then again, the Italian beef is pretty regional, as well.

Dedicated thread in S&C here ==>> Roast Pork Sandwich w/broccoli rabe [Pictures]

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I slip a few slices of provolone in my Italian Beefs when I make them at home, I think it's nice. Maybe even helps hold em together. Hope that doesnt start any beeves.

MungryJoe wrote:

chicagojim wrote:I'm in the camp that say's there's nothing wrong with a beef and cheese sandwich, but at that point it's a Philly Cheesesteak, not Italian Beef.

Thanks, chicagojim. Do you sometimes order a cheesy beef and sometimes "plain" (for lack of a better term)?

The default is just the beef - so one just orders wet or dry (or dipped or not) they mean the same thing) and if you want the spicy giard or mild. That isn't "plain", it's the definition of an IB sandwich. If you want cheeze (philistine) you say "add cheese". And they may scowl at you a bit, but they'll do it since it's a minor sin, not like Ketchup on a hot dog, which is a deadly sin.

Blasphemy if you are asking. As said previously, like putting ketchup on encased meat. Yet, many people do and apparently many people put cheese on their beef. Many people go to fast food joints, bad pizza joints, etc.... Why, I will never know.

Puckjam wrote:Blasphemy if you are asking. As said previously, like putting ketchup on encased meat. Yet, many people do and apparently many people put cheese on their beef. Many people go to fast food joints, bad pizza joints, etc.... Why, I will never know.

I mostly agree with the idea of never putting ketchup on a hot dog, but I couldn't go as far as saying not on encased meat. Currywurst is exactly that--ketchup on encased meat--and it is quite the tasty delicacy! But that is the only exception. ... (And yes, I realize this is totally off topic, but still worth noting.)

A good caveat.

Just like I don't consider deep dish to be pizza,I don't consider a "Cheesy Beef" as listed on some menus to be Italian Beef.
Saying that, Armands in Elmwood Park makes me a sandwich which I love. Beef on a garlic roll, marinara sauce, sweet peppers and provolone in the oven till the cheese melts.

At Johnny’s I get the beef dipped no cheese but most everywhere else I get cheese on it as I find it helps with the all too common dried out meat. Swimming in jus but dry nonetheless, cooking is a funny science, huh?


Yes I do understand the mechanics of it.

Octarine wrote:At Johnny’s I get the beef dipped no cheese but most everywhere else I get cheese on it as I find it helps with the all too common dried out meat. Swimming in jus but dry nonetheless, cooking is a funny science, huh?


Yes I do understand the mechanics of it.

Good point, Octarine!

I never get cheese on an Italian Beef. However, when I upgrade to the beef/sausage combo, then some pizza cheese (mozz, prov) baked on is my preference (with the hot gard underneath the cheese).

-Will

WillG wrote:I never get cheese on an Italian Beef. However, when I upgrade to the beef/sausage combo, then some pizza cheese (mozz, prov) baked on is my preference (with the hot gard underneath the cheese).

-Will

Interesting. Sounds good. Thanks!

As a transplant from Philly, no less, I used to order cheesy beefs. This was due largely, I think, to being accustomed to the cheesesteak.

Eventually, I discovered the various levels of wetness/baptism/etc and have dialed in a gravy-dip approach that is sublime without cheese. It took a while for me to see the light, but I'm there. The sandwiches are fundamentally different and I do not see the need for cheese if the spice/gravy/giard combo is dialed in. The gravy dip also repairs any deficiencies with Chicago bread

As for roast pork, at home I skip the deli slicer and make a crock-pot, "pulled/shredded" version that, I think, holds it own with any acquired in Philly (the cheese and rabe are not part of the slow cooking). I'm also learning how important "long-hots" are to the final product, this is a new wrinkle for me and was not part of the roast porks of my youth.

I enjoyed a soaked Italian beef at Johnnie's today.
I could not imagine improving that by adding cheese.

CSD

bobbywal wrote:As a transplant from Philly, no less, I used to order cheesy beefs. This was due largely, I think, to being accustomed to the cheesesteak.

Eventually, I discovered the various levels of wetness/baptism/etc and have dialed in a gravy-dip approach that is sublime without cheese. It took a while for me to see the light, but I'm there. The sandwiches are fundamentally different and I do not see the need for cheese if the spice/gravy/giard combo is dialed in. The gravy dip also repairs any deficiencies with Chicago bread

Thanks a lot, bobbywal! Great post. So interesting. Question: What problems have you found with Chicago bread? I'm interested to know. Thanks!

GlakeCate wrote:

Puckjam wrote:Blasphemy if you are asking. As said previously, like putting ketchup on encased meat. Yet, many people do and apparently many people put cheese on their beef. Many people go to fast food joints, bad pizza joints, etc.... Why, I will never know.

I mostly agree with the idea of never putting ketchup on a hot dog, but I couldn't go as far as saying not on encased meat. Currywurst is exactly that--ketchup on encased meat--and it is quite the tasty delicacy! But that is the only exception. ... (And yes, I realize this is totally off topic, but still worth noting.)

Not quite. Currywurst is served with a sauce that includes ketchup as one of the ingredients but also includes curry, paprika and other spices, completely changing it from ketchup into "curry sauce."

chicagojim wrote:

GlakeCate wrote:

Puckjam wrote:Blasphemy if you are asking. As said previously, like putting ketchup on encased meat. Yet, many people do and apparently many people put cheese on their beef. Many people go to fast food joints, bad pizza joints, etc.... Why, I will never know.

I mostly agree with the idea of never putting ketchup on a hot dog, but I couldn't go as far as saying not on encased meat. Currywurst is exactly that--ketchup on encased meat--and it is quite the tasty delicacy! But that is the only exception. ... (And yes, I realize this is totally off topic, but still worth noting.)

Not quite. Currywurst is served with a sauce that included ketchup as one of the ingredients but also include curry, paprika and other spices, completely changing it from ketchup into "curry sauce."

For me, the salient point is that there are so many types of sausage out there, it's not correct to say that none should ever be adorned with ketchup. Can I think of any right now? No but I'm sure they're out there.

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ronnie_suburban wrote:For me, the salient point is that there are so many types of sausage out there, it's not correct to say that none should ever be adorned with ketchup. Can I think of any right now? No but I'm sure they're out there.

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My Bride and I made Smokey Link with Grilled Onion and Endive on a toasted Hoagie bun.


I had a strong urge to apply ketchup... But didn’t.

Panther in the Den wrote:Casciani's Pizzeria (Cheesy Beef)
9200 Joliet Rd, Hodgkins
Awesome! They put it in a metal takeout pan and run it through the pizza oven. A glorious, gloppy mess.

The attachment 4067DA05-0E20-4AF4-97D7-84D90E69646D.jpeg is no longer available

They will also give this treatment to their famous breaded steak sandwich.

Found a pic in the takeout pan...


Now that is a gooey, gloppy mess!

ronnie_suburban wrote:For me, the salient point is that there are so many types of sausage out there, it's not correct to say that none should ever be adorned with ketchup. Can I think of any right now? No but I'm sure they're out there.

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When my kids were babies we would from time to time have plain hotdogs sliced into disks, add a squirt of EZ Cheese, stabbed with a fork and dipped in ketchup. I would join them.

Maybe a confession is in order, I don’t hate ketchup, often I will have the above, unsliced on white bread with grilled onions.

I haven’t ordered ketchup on a hotdog at a stand for fear of backlash. I enjoy mustard just fine.

Panther in the Den wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:For me, the salient point is that there are so many types of sausage out there, it's not correct to say that none should ever be adorned with ketchup. Can I think of any right now? No but I'm sure they're out there.

=R=

When my kids were babies we would from time to time have plain hotdogs sliced into disks, add a squirt of EZ Cheese, stabbed with a fork and dipped in ketchup. I would join them.

Maybe a confession is in order, I don’t hate ketchup, often I will have the above, unsliced on white bread with grilled onions.

I haven’t ordered ketchup on a hotdog at a stand for fear of backlash. I enjoy mustard just fine.

I think the above would be better breaded and deep fried and then dipped in ketchup. I could make an exception for that.

No cheese for me. While Portillo’s beef is not great, I think it’s good. Their bread is excellent.

D.

chicagojim wrote:Not quite. Currywurst is served with a sauce that included ketchup as one of the ingredients but also include curry, paprika and other spices, completely changing it from ketchup into "curry sauce."

ronnie_suburban wrote:For me, the salient point is that there are so many types of sausage out there, it's not correct to say that none should ever be adorned with ketchup. Can I think of any right now? No but I'm sure they're out there.

=R=

I've been lucky enough to visit Berlin several times--and even spent a good few hours wandering around the Currywurst Museum (RIP ) a few summers ago, and they describe the topping as a "spiced ketchup" with curry powder sprinkled on top. So I'm siding with the experts on this one and standing by my original comment, "Currywurst is exactly that--ketchup on encased meat."

But I also wholeheartedly agree that "the salient point is that there are so many types of sausage out there, it's not correct to say that none should ever be adorned with ketchup."

GlakeCate wrote:

chicagojim wrote:Not quite. Currywurst is served with a sauce that included ketchup as one of the ingredients but also include curry, paprika and other spices, completely changing it from ketchup into "curry sauce."

ronnie_suburban wrote:For me, the salient point is that there are so many types of sausage out there, it's not correct to say that none should ever be adorned with ketchup. Can I think of any right now? No but I'm sure they're out there.

=R=

I've been lucky enough to visit Berlin several times--and even spent a good few hours wandering around the Currywurst Museum (RIP ) a few summers ago, and they describe the topping as a "spiced ketchup" with curry powder sprinkled on top. So I'm siding with the experts on this one and standing by my original comment, "Currywurst is exactly that--ketchup on encased meat."

But I also wholeheartedly agree that "the salient point is that there are so many types of sausage out there, it's not correct to say that none should ever be adorned with ketchup."

For me, it's odd. I don't like ketchup on an all-beef hot dog. But I do like ketchup on a (beef) hamburger. Mustard-only on hamburger feels a bit odd to me. But, with a pork chop or schnitzel, I love mustard. Ketchup is an abomination! But an all-pork or pork-and-beef hot dog, I do like ketchup along with mustard.

I'm not entirely sure why, but my guess is that when I was a kid, my father would often buy these Polish pork-and-beef or pork-and-veal wieners for Saturday breakfast, and I would always eat them with ketchup. I associated the texture of those wieners (which is a more delicate, juicier texture than all-beef wieners) with that sweet & sour ketchup tang. For many years, I've stifled the urge to put ketchup on these dogs, but, getting into my middle age, I guess I've stopped caring, and will gladly put a little drizzle of ketchup (Hunts for me--I happen to be one of the weirdos who prefer it to Heinz--tangier and fruitier) on a pork or pork-and-beef/veal hot dog along with the mustard. But I still won't do it with an all-beef dog.

About twenty years ago, I was visiting a friend's family out in Germany with my brother in a little village called Gammertingen in Swabia/Baden-Wurttemberg. At dinner, we were served, perhaps somewhat stereotypically, a feast of bratwurst, sauerkraut, potatoes, and probably salad of some sort. I had been giving my brother a bit of shit (hey, that's what brothers do) for putting ketchup on goddamned everything, especially his encased meats. I was all like "here, you can see how the Germans do it! No ketchup on sausage!" Of course, the first thing the otherwise very German dad does is get a big bottle of ketchup out of the fridge and pours it over his bratwurst. My brother wouldn't stop giving me shit after that.

Totally tangential, but this thread especially the recent posts, reminds me of the condiment dispensers you see all over Germany. They're large-sized hanging bottles - ketchup, mustard, etc. with a sort of nipple on the bottom, and you get out what you want by sort of milking the bottle. We refer to them as "condiment cows."

My Brides daughter lived in Germany for several years and thought she would have an all American 4th of July party.

Sausages (including hotdogs) buns toppings, sides. Everything.

Turned unusual as all her guests did was grab a sausage, dip it in their favorite condiment, take a bite. Never a bun or the attendant toppings.

Live and learn.

Panther in the Den wrote:Found a pic in the takeout pan...

612BC9F3-69F3-42C0-874B-FD5DC0952583.jpeg

Now that is a gooey, gloppy mess!

To me, that photo makes a strong argument against cheesing a beef. Honestly, I don't think I'd want to eat that thing. About 15 years ago, I had my first Italian beef with red sauce and melted mozzarella. That's the way they do it at Roseangela's in Evergreen Park, a decent old pizzeria. It wasn't bad at all, but I've had no desire for cheese on the many beefs I've eaten since. Most of the beef stands I frequent don't even offer the option, and I wouldn't bother with a beef at most pizzerias I go to. Italian sausage sandwich? Now that's a different story. While a charred sausage from Al's or Johnnie's is just about perfect with only sweet peppers and a little juice, there's nothing wrong with embellishing a lesser sandwich with sauce and cheese and giving it a little time in the pizza oven. The Freddy-makers of the Southwest Side understand this. But I think this treatment is even better for meatball sandwiches. I love a nice crispy/melty meatball sandwich. Just as I love an Italian beef (dipped, hot, please).

chicagojim wrote:Totally tangential, but this thread especially the recent posts, reminds me of the condiment dispensers you see all over Germany. They're large-sized hanging bottles - ketchup, mustard, etc. with a sort of nipple on the bottom, and you get out what you want by sort of milking the bottle. We refer to them as "condiment cows."

That's one hanging at the National Mustard Museum (Middleton WI). It's from Switzerland, a country with a lot of cows. I don't understand why these brilliant dispensers aren't more common here. You'd think they'd be popular, especially in Wisconsin.

Panther in the Den wrote:My Brides daughter lived in Germany for several years and thought she would have an all American 4th of July party.

Sausages (including hotdogs) buns toppings, sides. Everything.

Turned unusual as all her guests did was grab a sausage, dip it in their favorite condiment, take a bite. Never a bun or the attendant toppings.

Live and learn.

Yeah - that's customary. We always chuckle when presented with a pair of hot dogs (always 2), with a little round bun that you hold to eat them with, with the sausages hanging out on each end. We joke that the nation that figured out sausages didn't also figure out the idea of a matching bun, but that's the way it is and life is good.

Rene G wrote:

Panther in the Den wrote:

chicagojim wrote:Totally tangential, but this thread especially the recent posts, reminds me of the condiment dispensers you see all over Germany. They're large-sized hanging bottles - ketchup, mustard, etc. with a sort of nipple on the bottom, and you get out what you want by sort of milking the bottle. We refer to them as "condiment cows."

That's one hanging at the National Mustard Museum (Middleton WI). It's from Switzerland, a country with a lot of cows. I don't understand why these brilliant dispensers aren't more common here. You'd think they'd be popular, especially in Wisconsin.

That's the idea, but they're usually much smaller than 4KG. They're very efficient, you get your naked sausage and they're hanging in front of you. You reach up, dispense your condiment of choice, and you're good to go.