Are there expensive restaurants worth it for the food?

I am owed a "thank you" dinner. We've done these in the past and places we've gone to were like:

Naha
Crofton on Wells
Topolobampo

Now, the favor that was done was MUCH bigger than those for the past. It is conceivable to ask to go to a more expensive place. The person buying would also appreciate the experience if it was worth it.

However, we are not fancy people. We don't like having to dress better than "business casual". We don't want to pay to "say we've gone there" or "be seen" or "see famous people".

We're also great home cooks. We like going out to eat for:

1) Food ingredients that are just hard to get at home.
2) Just not having to do all that work ourselves
3) Letting some chef think of some creative thing we wouldn't have thought to try before.

So, are there places where the appetizers are over the $10-20 price range, the entrees over the 25-40 price range that are worth it for those considerations.

I'm sure I've been missing out on some dining experience. I just have heard so much negative info on Trotter's that I don't want to go there. I also don't want to pay to have my food "served fancier" - like live fish in the bowls that aren't for eating....

Thanks for your help!

Nancy

I think you're selling yourself short on trying the high end, out of the understandable fear that they're going to (as Jon Polito put it in Miller's Crossing) "give you da high hat."

In fact, I would say one of the distinguishing characteristics of the very top rank of places is that the service is so disarmingly unpretentious, so careful to make sure you're completely comfortable, satisfied and happy. The mid-range, two to three star places may act like they're too hip for you on occasion, but generally speaking the four star places won't.

As far as dress goes, business casual means a lot of things but at least the nicer half of them would be just fine in any of these environments.

I would think about Avenues or Alinea (though I haven't been there myself; I loved Trio under Achatz though) at the top end (though probably higher than you're talking); and I'd consider Blackbird (though it's a bit more of a scene) for less elaborate but extremely well prepared food, or North Pond which has very good food and a really handsome atmosphere. I don't think you'd get the high hat at any of them.

Mike G wrote:I think you're selling yourself short on trying the high end, out of the understandable fear that they're going to (as Jon Polito put it in Miller's Crossing) "give you da high hat."

In fact, I would say one of the distinguishing characteristics of the very top rank of places is that the service is so disarmingly unpretentious, so careful to make sure you're completely comfortable, satisfied and happy. The mid-range, two to three star places may act like they're too hip for you on occasion, but generally speaking the four star places won't.

As far as dress goes, business casual means a lot of things but at least the nicer half of them would be just fine in any of these environments.

I would think about Avenues or Alinea (though I haven't been there myself; I loved Trio under Achatz though) at the top end (though probably higher than you're talking); and I'd consider Blackbird (though it's a bit more of a scene) for less elaborate but extremely well prepared food, or North Pond which has very good food and a really handsome atmosphere. I don't think you'd get the high hat at any of them.

While Blackbird and North Pond are great recommendations (and North Pond is one of my favorite restaurants at any price point), I wouldn't put them in the 4-star category, at least not based on price. Alinea and Avenues are great choices at that price point. Moto is another, especially in light of the OP's stated preference for dining out in order to get "[f]ood ingredients that are just hard to get a home." Assuming you don't live at a hospital or a silicon chip manufacturing plant, I'd say Moto has the ingredients you seek! (I also think business casual dress is plenty fine for Moto. Regarding service, and with the exception of the wine steward - who as Cathy2 can attest showered me with some remarkable 'tude regarding my taste for Zinfandel and also had a snide remark or two for GAF about the provenance of pumpkins - MikeG's characterization of the "4-star" serving style is spot on.)

How about one of Shawn McClain's restaurants? Though I've only been to Spring (which was very good), the newest one, Custom House, has been getting rave reviews. Green Zebra is also very well regarded.

While Blackbird and North Pond are great recommendations (and North Pond is one of my favorite restaurants at any price point), I wouldn't put them in the 4-star category, at least not based on price.

Okay, I sort of muddied that point and meant to say that they were the next step down. I kind of thought Moto might seem too gimmicky for the crowd, by the description. (Not that Alinea wouldn't also, probably.) But at least the gimmicks relate to the food.

If you're leaning against Avenues and Alinea, you could also consider somewhere like Le Francais, Everest, Les Nomades, Ambria, or Tru. Not quite as daring or creative as Alinea or Moto or even Avenues, but still suitable for your purposes.

Well, I think Tru was what the reference to fish in bowls not for eating was referring to...

Mike G wrote:Well, I think Tru was what the reference to fish in bowls not for eating was referring to...

Oh, right. Ignore Tru, then...

I read some reviews about your recommendations and here's what I think

I might not be a 4-star restaurant person, unless that rating could be acheived with food alone. However I think the restaurant is supposed to be fancier than just awesome food for that professional rating.

I will talk down "jackets required" because I'd rather support "more modern" restaurants that can trust people to dress up and aren't stuffy about it all being so fancy.

On to the places mentioned:

Moto

Sounds interesting, read about the LTH dinner there. ALL the Check Please patrons that week loved it. It is fancy, I sure wouldn't mind a 10+ course price fixed meal but of course want to pay for the food, and as such an Alton Brown fan, I don't mind paying for innovatiive cooking ways, so long as they really work to make the food better. I like the business casual dress code mentioned on Open Table. Hope it's worth the extra money compared to the "not that expensive" places.


Alinea

Sounds too gimmicky from Phil Vettel's review, serving food on pillows filled with lavender scented air. Menu sure is adventurous. Jackets preferred for men, no jeans. Well, with considering Moto at the same time, I'd go for Moto over this place. They all have vague menus anyway....

Avenues

Vettel's review: "foie-lipops," chilled foie-gras-torchon lollipops that have been crusted with Pop Rocks candy - You have GOT to be kidding. I've always hated pop rocks, please don't ruin my fois gras!! I told my husband about this, he shuddered and I bet he'd never walk through the door. Also jacket required. Just doesn't sound our style.

Custom House

Geez, the metromix people loved this place (and you can never quite figure what kind of people they might be). Doesn't sound that expensive, but can't see much of a menu (no real web site yet). Do they really have a roasted quail appetizer? Is it a good one? I loved the one at Crofton on Well, and in the past at Eclectic, but hate the way Le Titi de Paris always is serving them stuffed instead of nicely roasted. Do they really have veal cheeks? Yum! Some reviewer said it was more expensive than Spring and Green Zebra.... I don't know if this is "the fancy expensive food" place for this post, but I sure think I'd like to go there.

Le Francais
Everest
Les Nomades
Ambria
Tru

These places are all mostly jacket required/preferred - my husband just hates that. The only inspiring menu was Tru - but I think I might find stuff that was interesting at The Custom House perhaps. Tru was that place that disgusted my husband when he saw them on TV with the fish bowl dishes and the caviar staircase. You just know you're paying for that too, and it's not worth it to us.

NOW, all these restaurants seem in the same price range as those I originally listed:

Blackbird

I've always forgotten about this place when we're going somewhere and never got around to it, but it seems price-wise right in line with the three places I mentioned. Still, would like to check it out someday.

North Pond

Also in that "not super high" price range. Looks good, but has anyone gone with "fear of fine dining" people? My father is like that, he can get angry at a restaurant if too many dishes have ingredients he doesn't know (and he won't educate himself there), and particularly if all the fishes are ones he doesn't recognize. But looking at the menu I think I could take my Dad there so long as the salads didn't scare him away. So far we can take Dad to Keefer's (twice, he picked it the second time), Harrey Carey's and things that just aren't that fancy at all, like Shaw's Crab House.

Spring

Couldn't see prices on their web site, Metromix doesn't make them sound very expensive. Sounds like a decent restaurant, but once again not more special. I think I like their sommelier, they had two Sancerre's on the list!

Green Zebra

Menu is quite different and interesting. Phil Vettel says you should order three dishes per person for a satisfying meal. How I wouldn't be hard pressed to order 5 courses before dessert, and no meat - and I'm definitely a meat eater, but enjoy the occasional vegetarian meal particularly if dairy and eggs are included in it (as they are here). Still not super expensive, perhaps a little pricey for veggies, but it sounds creative enough to be worth it. I would like to go here some day.

OK, plenty of good sounding food and innovation and such at the less expensive, presumably three star restaurants. I do like that kind of restaurant.

But might be time for an adventure to Moto, or some other innovative place that isn't stuffy.....

Nancy

Do you like Japanese food? Then your answer is Matsumoto.

http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4891

http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4949

There you are absolutely paying for the food, not the decor, and no one will care what you wear.

The food is unique, unforgettable and exquisite.

If that's too exotic, you might try the intimate restaurant Pane Caldo, which blends Italian with a bit of French and a touch of the exotic. The chef can be quite creative, such as a menu based on edible weeds. I don't believe they require a jacket. A brief search shows that most of what's online about them is sadly out of date.

Matsumoto
773/267-1555
3800 W. Lawrence Ave.
Chicago, IL 60625

Pane Caldo
72 E. Walton St., Chicago
312/649-0055
http://www.pane-caldo.com

For what it's worth, and this is based off nothing but what I've read, I'd rank Avenues/Moto/Alinea in terms of weirdness or gimmickyness as:

Weirdest: Moto
Not quite as weird (no paper sushi): Alinea
Not particularly weird, except for a course or two: Avenues

Of course, I'd jump at the chance to eat at any of them. let us know what you end up doing..

but has anyone gone with "fear of fine dining" people? My father is like that, he can get angry at a restaurant if too many dishes have ingredients he doesn't know (and he won't educate himself there), and particularly if all the fishes are ones he doesn't recognize. But looking at the menu I think I could take my Dad there so long as the salads didn't scare him away

I don't think Moto will be your cup of tea particularly if you consider Alinea and Avenues "gimmicky."

Have you considered Spiaggia? It might be a little dressier than business casual, but probably not quite as haute as Everest and Les Nomades.

The truth is, I don't think you're going to really find anything in that price and star range that doesn't require jackets, or isn't too gimmicky for you.

I have a rant over in another thread about how much I dislike dress codes, so I feel your husband's pain, but I don't think he has much of a choice.

I would tell him to bite the bullet, wear a sportcoat with no tie, and go to Alinea.

gleam wrote:I would tell him to bite the bullet, wear a sportcoat with no tie, and go to Alinea.

I know it makes me sound like a curmudgeon to say this, but it's called "dressing appropriately." I don't understand why some people find it difficult to cope with the concept.

Okay, we had that discussion already here, let's not hijack this one.

Either Dad is going to be delighted by the inventiveness at the Alinea/Avenues/Moto trio, or he's going to find it the biggest bunch of nonsense he's ever been forced to sit through in his life. Given possibility B, you then have the problem that the four-stars that aren't cutting-edge hip like those three are pretty much all formal enough to require a jacket. That leaves you with, well, nowhere. Unfortunately, you kind of have requirements that no one place can meet.

So go to North Pond. Lovely setting, quiet restaurant (Blackbird is probably too much of a scene), very good food that I don't think should go too far out (it's all American-organicish, but not health foody), and probably no one will have to wear a jacket. It's a three star, not a four star, but it seems the most likely place to end the evening happily to me.

Have you thought about McDonalds? I hear they do a nice burger, and it meets your dress code.

Seriously, if your husband does not want to show respect for his fellow diners and the establishment by putting on a sport coat, he really should not be eating with grown-ups. Nobody is asking him to wear a tux. They are talking about a sport coat.

My advice: Try Red Lobster on Ontario. He can claim that he is having a Chicago meal, without having to worry about all that pesky manners business.

Incidently, and not that you will ever know, but the food at Alinea is amazing. The lavendar pillow? It is so that you get the taste or flavor of lavendar. It is creative, well-executed, and it tastes good.

One more comment, regarding your note about menus: At Moto, you eat the menu. At Alinea when I went, there was no menu. At Charlie Trotter's, you are told that Chef Trotter may change his mind as the night goes on, and by the way, are there any food allergies that we should know about?

When I go to a place like that, I realize that I am relying on the chef to put together a menu for the evening. I would want the chef to know about allergies, but other than that, I want to be served what the chef believes is a great meal, and I will grade the restaurant on the meal that the chef chooses. [Usually we have a great meal, and sometimes --notably Taillevent in Paris -- we do not]. Then my wife and I sit back and enjoy the evening.

I guess I take issue with the conclusion that jacket required (or preferred) means that a restaurant is stuffy. My husband and I just had a wonderful dinner at Avenues and there was nothing stuffy about it. Everyone we encountered was friendly, candid, and open. For example, the manager and I discussed his collection of plastic menus from 50's motels! Yes, they prefer gentlemen wear a jacket. For us, the dinner was a special occasion and we would have dressed up anyway. It's part of the fun of a nice night out. And despite the inclusion of pop rocks on one menu item, it was quite possible to choose a meal with much more typical preparation. That's the cost of being a hotel restaurant.

Given your rather strong preferences, why not go back to a restaurant that you know you like, such as Crofton on Wells, one of my favorites, and just order a special bottle of wine to up the "thank-you" quotient?

What about Tallgrass?

They say that jackets are preferred there, but the last time I was there I was the only male with one on. It's definitely fine dining, but not too much for those "people scared of fine dining". The menu is also fun.

Tallgrass
http://www.tallgrassrestaurant.com
1006 S. State St.
Lockport, IL 60441
(815) 838-5566

Has the dress code at Tallgrass changed in the past couple years then? I seem to remember when I went there in 2002 or so they were requiring jackets for the men. I think they even explicitly reminded us over the phone when confirming reservations.

I could be mis-remembering that, though, and my mom will probably chime in.

And although I thought the food was good (back then) it didn't strike me as particularly creative. Lots of foie gras, truffles, and other luxury items and lots of classical preparations.

I'm thinking I'm getting to know the answer.... I should just go to more than one less expensive (3 star) dinner. That is an option.

Why does my husband not want to wear a jacket? I dunno, but he's a sweater guy. When we go out he puts on his dockers, a button down shirt and one of his nicest sweaters (he does have nice ones), black socks and fairly nice shoes. He doesn't wear "dress shoes". He and I simply can't see why another diner would be "put off" by the way he dresses. We also think America needs to change and "jackets required" is simply an old generational thing that needs to die. "Dress Nice" would be better. Geez, we're not trying to wear shorts or jeans. I just don't want to wear pantyhose, and he wants his sweater, not his suit jacket (he doesn't own a "sports" jacket).

And while I think I could make my Mom pay for the three of us to go to one of the 4-star places, I only want to do it if we feel it was worth it compared to two visits to the ordinary "nice places" bunch of 3 star restaurants..... None of us has ever dined 4 star.

My Dad is excluded from this meal, he can't really even eat at most 3 star places unless they're safe or steak houses. But I'm glad to know that North Pond is a consideration for the next birthday dinner with him.

Sorry if someone feels I should go to McDonald's. I preferred the response that I should just go back to Crofton On Wells. Perhaps we should, it was lovely last time. But I'm tempted also to try Custom House and Green Zebra. Is one trip to Alinea/Avenues/Moto better than those two trips???????

Nancy

One other factor to consider is whether you want a multi-course tasting menu, something generally offered only at the higher end. For me, having 8 or 10 or more small course is the ultimate top level dining experience, because you get to taste so much. I'm quite sure Green Zebra doesn't offer that, but I'm not sure about Custom House. Alinea, Avenues and Moto all do; indeed, that's about the only way to eat there.

I also agree with Gleam on the "out there" index. Avenues does not present some of the odder items that you'll get at Alinea and Moto. For our tasting menu, we had a foie gras on a rice krispie cake, which is certainly a dish some might find odd (it tasted great), but that was the only dish one might consider strange, and I'm sure they would substitute something else. I wore a jacket for Avenues, but you could call and see what they think about lesser dress. I'd rate it a bit less formal than Alinea (I've not been to Moto). All things considered, if you want a tasting menu, Avenues might be the best bet. It's a terrific place.

Jonah

If you go to Moto and he is not wearing a sport coat, it would be considered out of place. When I went, I wore a business suit.

Further, the price is pretty close to what you will pay at Alinea or Tru.
Moto is an excellent restaurant. I had a great experience there. But if you are going for casual, it is not the place to go. Further, although I though very highly of it, it is not to caliber of Tru, Everest, Alinea, or Charlie Trotter's. In a few years, Moto may make that grade. But it is still a work in progress.

I am just boggled by the fact that a grown man will not play that role and toss on a sport coat. You are asking for first class food, but do not have the basic respect for the chef and your fellow diners to dress appropriately. A sports coat sends a signal to those around you that you have an idea of how to behave.

Want to wear a sweater? Go someplace where a sweater is appropriate. Your husband wants to dress like a child but still play with the grownups. It is a matter of basic respect and basic manners.

Okay, we're gettin' a little personal here. Let's keep the rhetoric down on both sides.

Rhetoric aside, there is a point there: this kind of meal is an occasion, and one with traditions, and its traditions include, like it or not, dressing for the occasion. If you want to partake, you have to play your part, too. We already had a big long discussion about whether or not that made any sense, but it didn't seem to change as a result of our brilliant insights, so there you are.

(Actually, though, I think I didn't dress all that fancy for Moto, which I went to spur of the moment. But Avenues I most definitely did.)

DML -

Are you serious? Is it really that big a deal between a jacket and a sweater? Wow, I know we're not conformists, but that still is surprising.

Also, perhaps it's me, not my husband, who is curious to try the 4-star thing.

BUT WILL IT BE ABOUT THE FOOD?????

We don't want a fancy experience. We want food we can't cook at home, because it's too hard to get the stuff. We honestly turn out some excellent fare at home.

What have I been craving....

Veal cheeks. Perhaps the cheeks of other animals, if they're good.
Nicely roasted quail. Perhaps pheasant, never had it.
Wild Boar. Oh, but I can't hope to match that Sardinian ragu I had in Houston once.
Duck breasts with crispy skin. Not as important as we just conquered that at home with restaurant quality homemade meaty sauces.
Mushrooms - nice exotic ones. Does anyone ever serve fresh porcini's - are they worth it?
Fois Gras. But I certainly can just go to Naha, they do it ever so nice.
And who knows what else, give me something new though, not the tame chicken, pork, beef dishes.

Spiaggia's menu was so tempting. But do I go there, or use it as inspiration for cooking. When will I haul myself from Hanover Park at the end of the Elgin-O'Hare out to Chicago Live Poultry and buy some quails already. Should I just buy the pig head from the Mexican store and cut out it's cheeks and jowls and make homemade guanciale and some nice dishes???

I hope people think this is a fun debate. Don't worry if I never get to go to a 4 star place, this has been an interesting thread.

Nancy

You know, as far as whether it's about the food or not, there's only about two dozen posts, many of them linked in this very thread, recounting meals at these places dish by dish, sometimes with pictures. You need to go read those and decide for yourself what you think.

Me, I have no doubts-- these highwire, weird science meals have always delivered outstanding, mind-altering food, and there's way more to it than just availability of ingredients (in fact I disagree that that's even a serious factor, you can get anything-- you might not be able to get certain wines they can get, but you can basically get any ingredient, if you're willing to pay). But you need to check the meals out for yourself.

In all seriousness, Nancy (I promise no more dress code comments), I think that Moto is not what you are looking for, and if you are looking for that type of place, then Alinea would be better. The prices on the two are similar. I loved Moto, but Alinea was better. Both provide very creative cooking. At Moto, you eat your menu, which tastes like chips and salsa. At Alinea, you get all sorts of interesting things.

Everest would meet your requirements, but even I find that a bit formal. The food is relatively standard but exceptionally well prepared.

Tru is sort of in the middle. People consider the room a bit sterile. I am not a big fan of the way the room looks, but I have been going there since it opened and I have loved every meal and have always been treated very well. The service has actually relaxed a bit. You may want to take another look at the menu there. It really is an incredible place.

I understand that you do not like Charlie Trotters, but I also believe that it is what you are looking for in terms of the food. He has the best local sources.

There are two other options: 1) North Pond. I have never been there, but the reviews are consistent with what you are looking for.
2) (and I think this is your best option): Go someplace where you have been comfortable in the past and slurge on a great bottle of wine. That could really add to your meal. If you usually drink young Cal. Cabernet, try a bottle of Bordeaux with some age on it.

Sorry if I lectured you about the dress code. It is just something that rubs a nerve.

I think I have made a decision.

We will go to The Custom House. Presumably BYO some nice wine if they don't have their license yet. From what I see from, I can't resist, and the more expensive places aren't a big enough lure.

I will try to remember to look at Spiaggia's menu and try to cook that stuff at home. We are very good cooks. Perhaps the other places as well.

If I don't get my fois gras fix and it's not illegal yet, I can probably swing a second dinner and go to Naha. Their seared fois gras is amazing.

Nancy

Nancy Sexton wrote:I think I have made a decision.

We will go to The Custom House. Presumably BYO some nice wine if they don't have their license yet. From what I see from, I can't resist, and the more expensive places aren't a big enough lure.

They most definitely have their liquor license as well as fois gras. With all of your "special" requirements, you'll have to be the judge as to whether or not you like the place. Please report back. I was there a few weeks ago and I'd love to hear someone else's opinion.

We're going there a week from Saturday. I'll look for the guy just wearing a sweater.

Nancy Sexton wrote:Spiaggia's menu was so tempting. But do I go there, or use it as inspiration for cooking. When will I haul myself from Hanover Park at the end of the Elgin-O'Hare out to Chicago Live Poultry and buy some quails already. Should I just buy the pig head from the Mexican store and cut out it's cheeks and jowls and make homemade guanciale and some nice dishes???

While I do sincerely accept your proposition that you are, indeed, a skilled "home" chef and that your home kitchen can turn out some impressive fare, I would not so quickly dismiss the abilities of a four-star chef, especially Tony Mantuano at Spiaggia. In the cases of restaurants like that, I do generally defer to the experience that a chef has in a 3-4 star restaurant environment and accept that almost no matter what dish they produce, it will likely exceed what I can do at home. (And this is coming from someone who loves to cook.) Why? Because while I think I am a better cook than most of my friends, I am NOT a better cook than one of my friends, who is a chef and has over 30 years experience in a professional kitchen. There is no replacement for that level of experience and expertise.

Now, even my friend, despite having the ability to churn out mind-blowing dishes at home, will gladly dine at the mercy of the chefs at acclaimed restaurants. She accepts and understands that, by and large, the restaurant business is a niche business for chefs and she respects that those chefs outside her specialty, who focus on that type of cuisine day in and day out, year after year, will prepare certain, if not many, dishes better than she can at home.

Thus, even if you are a chef (I don't see that you have identified yourself as such), you may not be likely - maybe I'm wrong - to replicate the Spiaggia menu as well as Tony Mantuano, who is has such experience as well as acclaim with respect to regional Italian food. In that sense, I defer to him and will shell out my money to eat there with an open heart and an open mind.

This is not to say that home chefs do not have the ability to be good - especially those who have honed a specialty. However, I would not so easily dismiss the abilities of most four-star chefs to churn out worthwhile and memorable meals merely by reviewing a menu and discerning whether or not you can replicate it at home.