Brining in plastic?

Brining in plastic?

My oldest daughter is headed back to China, so we're going to have a little bon voyage party for her featuring, at long last, the Caveny heritage turkey I bought last month.

I intend to brine the bird for 24 hours, but here's my dilemma. I don't have a big enough pail or pot for the whole bird. My solution may be to submerge the bird in a hefty bag filled with brining solution...unless someone tells me that this is a really bad idea (which it may be). Whadyathink?

Hammond

My charcuterie book recommends giant Hefty bags for bacon brining. Also, Sur La Table had turkey bags for sale (quite expensive, not surprisingly).

David,

Not sure if this is a swell idea either, but what I do is buy Home Depot 5-gal paint buckets, with lid, wash them really well, with hot water and dishsoap, and use for brining containers. This time of year it's likely your garage is within the proper range so you wouldn't even need to use the frig.

I second use the 5-gallon buckets for charcoal ash, grease, foil, and general BBQ garbage cleanup.

Some BBQ guys simply use a clean cooler, a wash with a 5% bleach solution takes care of most any nasties, and I've heard tell of people using hefty bags, but don't myself.

Enjoy,
Gary

Random thoughts:

1) depends on the type of Hefty bag. If it's meant for food storage, definitely no problem. If it's a large trash bag, then:

2) still probably no problem, assuming the brine's basically water salt & (possibly) sugar - there's not much of anything in the plastic that will leach into the brine in the 12 - 24 hours you'll be brining, unless:

3) you're using the brine also as a marinade, and including alcohol or very acidic stuff. Not being a chemist, I don't know if that would make a difference, but personally I wouldn't try it if contains lotsa acid or alcohol.

We do almost all our brining in plastic...

Fill it with water and make sure there aren't any leaks, but otherwise you should be fine.

G Wiv wrote:what I do is buy Home Depot 5-gal paint buckets, with lid, wash them really well, with hot water and dishsoap, and use for brining containers.

Gary,
FWIW, I know that in brewing beer, the 5-gal paint buckets at Home Depot are generally considered a not very good idea - but food grade 5-gal buckets - that look nearly identical - are often available for the asking at any number of larger restaurants or food processing plants.

Of course, in brewing there's the alcohol factor, so purely for non-alcoholic brining the paint buckets probably aren't bad.

As detailed here, I typically use a heavy-duty 2-gallon zipper-type bag for brining. If the bird's too big for that, or you can't locate that somewhat hard-to-find size, use a cooking bag, but put it inside a trash bag for strength.

What doesn't seem to me to be a great idea is the length of time you're planning to brine. I've found 8-12 hours plenty for even insipid supermarket birds and some cooks warn against brining heritage turkeys at all, since you're then replacing the flavorful natural juices that are the reason to get a heritage bird in the first place.

LAZ wrote:and some cooks warn against brining heritage turkeys at all, since you're then replacing the flavorful natural juices that are the reason to get a heritage bird in the first place.

Hi Leah,
As you probably know, I respect you and all your various writings. So it's with the greatest respect that I vehemently disagree with you on this.

It didn't sound right when I first read it, but to get added perspective, I checked several of my reference books. It appears that the notion that brining replaces the juices in the bird is wrong. Brining is a process of osmosis. When you have a more concentrated solution and a less concentrated solution separated by a semi-permeable barrier, the two will try to equalize, resulting in some of the more concentrated stuff traveling into the area of the less concentrated stuff (okay, not a particularly scientific explanation, but then I'm not a scientist ... I only play one on the internet).

So brining results in salt and water being absorbed into the muscle tissue of the bird (it also affects the protein structure of the muscle, increasing its water-holding capacity), but little, if any, of the natural juices leach out. True, with more water in there, the natural juices might be diluted slightly, but they're still there, and the bird is juicier.

I say, brine away!

With the utmost respect to Leah,

Tom

Some plastic trash bags contain plasticisers such as cadmium. Whether any of these very harmful substances can leach out of the bag and into the bird during brining isn't clear, but I'd stay away from anything that isn't certified as food-grade.

I use an ice chest with ice in the brine - keeps the bird cold and also saves space in the refrigerator. However, Sam's Club has started carrying XL and XXL Ziploc bags. Next time I brine a big bird in the refrigerator, I plan to give these a try.

Bill/SFNM

David
I wouldn't use garbage bags as they are not designed for food storage. Go to a restaurant supply house and purchase Cambro or other food grade plastic containers, not paint pails from Home Depot. They are not expensive and of course are reusable.
Paulette

Thanks, NR706, for the good information. My sense from cooking is that whether or not a non-brined bird might have a little more flavor, you will subjectively get a sense of much richer flavor from a brined bird because it will be saltier and because the moister meat releases flavor more readily as you chew. So on a practical level, there's no doubt in my mind which makes for a happier T-day dinner.

HI,

Once a year I get a 5 gallon food safe plastic container from a fast food place, which usually takes care of my 20+ pound turkey. For smaller turkeys, I have been known to use my several gallon stock pot. I recently used my cooler for brining my T-day turkey.

I wouldn't use a plastic bag intended for garbage despite the composition of my brine.

Regards,

Well, I was delighted last night when MikeG and gleam chimed in that Hefty bags were probably fine. I got up this morning, made the brine, dropped the bird in a Hefty bag, then spent the rest of the morning reading posts from august authorities such as GWiv, Paulette, NR706, C2, Bill SFNM and others, resulting in visions of my daughter going to China, falling ill from cadmium poisoning, coming under just-about medieval just-recently-communist medical care...and ran downstairs, released the bird from the bag and put it in a stock pot that enables me to "just about" cover it completely in brine (all except the Pope's Nose and about five inches of back and that is just going to have to do).

LAZ, I checked out the site you linked to, and although I would gladly have avoided this whole brining brouhaha, the weight of opinion (at least on this board) seems in favor of brining. However, I do agree that the Chez Panisse receipe that I got from MikeG may go a little overboard on the brining time, so I'll take it out in maybe 16 (rather than 24) hours, and let it air dry in the refrigerator. This recipe also suggests cooking at 400 -- which also seems a little extreme. I did use their brining recipe (because I had all the ingredients already, and it sounded pretty simple and good).

Thank you all for the exceptionally helpful insights.

Hammond

I have been using a brine for Turkey, and Pork for years, and everyone loves the results.

For large Turkey's I have used the Reynolds Cooking Bags. I put them into either the five gallon bucket from Home Depot, or into a styrafome cooler (from Omaha Steaks).

Well, I was delighted last night when MikeG and gleam chimed in that Hefty bags were probably fine.

I'm sorry, by "giant Hefty bags" I meant the 2.5-gallon Hefty ziploc-style bags they sell at Jewel (Hefty seems to make the largest ones they carry), not Hefty trash bags per se.

My apologies on the impending hideous cadmium deaths of your family.

Hey, I'm not anti-brining. I usually do brine my turkeys (for 8 to 12 hours).

Science isn't my strong point either and I don't have any experience cooking heritage birds, so I possibly misunderstood what I read. But since the point of brining is to make the bird flavorful and juicy, and these old-fashioned turkeys are supposedly already flavorful and juicy, what's the benefit of the brine?

To brine or not to brine? "What you are doing is making meat that should be better in the first place tolerable by adding juices to it. If you imagine your butcher doing that, selling you a piece of meat that's 20 percent added water, you wouldn't appreciate it."

Harold McGee at Saute Wednesday.

As for roasting at 400 degrees, that I've done -- and higher -- and it can work out fine. Here's Barbara Kafka's recipe for 500-degree roasting.

Mike G wrote:

Well, I was delighted last night when MikeG and gleam chimed in that Hefty bags were probably fine.

I'm sorry, by "giant Hefty bags" I meant the 2.5-gallon Hefty ziploc-style bags they sell at Jewel (Hefty seems to make the largest ones they carry), not Hefty trash bags per se.

I was also, for the record, talking about extra-extra-large food storage bags, not trash bags.

Mike G wrote:

My apologies on the impending hideous cadmium deaths of your family.

No problem. Easy mistake to make.

Hammond

LAZ wrote:
But since the point of brining is to make the bird flavorful and juicy, and these old-fashioned turkeys are supposedly already flavorful and juicy, what's the benefit of the brine?[/url].

Brining adds moisture and the flavor of the brine's seasoning mixture. For an old fashoined heritage bird I would stay pretty basic with the brine. Salt and a sweetener. I like to try new cuts without seaoning, that way I can add to improve.

LAZ wrote:But since the point of brining is to make the bird flavorful and juicy, and these old-fashioned turkeys are supposedly already flavorful and juicy, what's the benefit of the brine?

Leah,

Heritage turkeys are more muscular, leaner and have an assertive flavor and dense flesh structure. This contributes to flavor, more turkey in the turkey, so to speak, but Heritage turkeys are not "juicy." Which I take to mean inherently moist, less prone to dry out. In fact, the opposite is true, the lean, dense, muscular flesh, which has more in common with a wild turkey than industrial turkey, is slightly more prone to be dry. Brining gives an edge against cooking a dry bird.

I've smoked or roasted 5-6 of the Heritage turkeys, brined each one, and the results have been excellent. I highly recommend brining Heritage turkeys or, for that matter, all turkey with the exception of processed turkeys "moisture enhanced" by 8-16%

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote: I highly recommend brining Heritage turkeys or, for that matter, all turkey with the exception of processed turkeys "moisture enhanced" by 8-16%

Add to the exception list Kosher turkeys (lazy man's brine) which, by definition, come pre-brined, albeit a simple salt only brine.

stevez wrote:Add to the exception list Kosher turkeys (lazy man's brine) which, by definition, come pre-brined, albeit a simple salt only brine.

Mr. Z,

Absolutely, no need to brine poultry that has been kashered. I should have included that as well. Thanks.

Enjoy,
Gary

Sorry folks, but I'm joining this conversation long after the isssue's been settled. But then. It might be useful to just report a few standard-practice principles from the winemaking world, since they would seem to apply here.

Small wineries inevitably have small batches--testing new techniques, new varities, new thises and thats--and there's always the issue: where to ferment them? Plastic containers are the inevitable answer. (Indeed, they're just about the only choice...)

The general principles are: colored plastic containers are to be avoided if possible; white is not a color.

Needless to say, then, if we can score a food-grade 5-gal white pail, we're piggies in mud. But that's not typically the case. So, as often happens, I find myself down at the local Westlake/Ace/True-value store, buying one of their white utility pails. I cannot tell you how many gals of red wine I've fermented in one of these pails over the years. And a good, vigorous fermentation, with lots of solvent CO2, SO2, not to mention ethanol, should kick loose anything kick-looseable from that pail. But we certainly haven't noticed it.

Seems to me that a good dose of chicken lipid and NaCl wouldn't leach anything dangerous from that pail either.

Last year, c. Thanksgiving, not having such a pail, I went to Plan B: a clear plastic trash bag inserted in my 13-gal plastic kitchen trash can, to brine my 24-lb American Bronze turkey that a local 4-H lad had quite happily raised on his free range just outside of Whitewater.

Worked most excellently.

My reasoning was that clear plastic would be cleaner chemically than a colored bag. I might be wrong on this, and would be interested to hear reasons against my reasoning. [e.g., clear plastic bags are made from, say, acrylic, which is more leach-able than black bags, etc.] I actually don't have any Real Facts at my disposal in this case.

So there you have the sum total of what my practices are.

Geo

Well, I'm convinced that I had little if anything to worry about using Hefty bags...but if there's any doubt (and many distinguished voices raised that doubt), then I'm just going to brine using with my big pot that enabled me to submerge most of the bird.

Incidentally, the Chez Panisse brine and "stuffing" (just lemons, onion, and herbs) helped me prepare what was generally regarded as the "best turkey ever." No doubt, the quality of the Caveny bird played a huge role in this assessment...

I appreciate all the voices who chimed in on this query.

Hammond

For those planning on brining their Thanksgiving turkeys, Bed Bath & Beyond is selling turkey brining bags, made by Grill Friends. I just bought one to try it out this year, and it seems pretty sturdy (clear, like a ziploc bag, but much sturdier) and it has a double seal at the top. It's a 24-inch bag and the box claims it will hold a 20 pound turkey. We'll see. It sells for $6.99 (or about $5.50 with a 20% off coupon). Not cheap considering it's for a one-time use, but still a minor investment.

HI,

20 pound turkey and 2 gallons of brining liquid, I hope it is a pretty big bag.

gp60005 brought pickels in 5 gallon food safe containers to the picnic last month. I took them home for brining the Thanksgiving turkey. I am always counting on cooler weather to use my enclosed porch as my refrigerator.

Regards,

Cathy2 wrote:HI,

20 pound turkey and 2 gallons of brining liquid, I hope it is a pretty big bag.

gp60005 brought pickels in 5 gallon food safe containers to the picnic last month. I took them home for brining the Thanksgiving turkey. I am always counting on cooler weather to use my enclosed porch as my refrigerator.

Regards,

I'm probably only going to do a 12 lb. turkey, but in any event, the bag is quite large. I don't think I'll have a problem. As for 20lbs? I think that might be pushing it, but not sure.

In my community garden, there's a gardener who makes her own compost in food-safe 10-gallon plastic buckets she says she gets free from a local bakery; apparently they're used for flour and if you go ask ahead of time (like Starbucks or Border's boxes for when you're moving) they'll set some aside for you.

If it makes you feel better, Gary, I've used non-food-safe generic paper towels (oddly, most paper towels aren't technically food-safe) to drain my various fried foods and thus far none of us has exploded.

Mhays wrote:If it makes you feel better, Gary, I've used non-food-safe generic paper towels (oddly, most paper towels aren't technically food-safe) to drain my various fried foods and thus far none of us has exploded.

Unread newspapers are considered sterile due to thermodynamic processing used in printing. Of course, we are talking about the internal pages, which haven't been exposed.

Regards,

A little Googling around disclosed a variety of information from a plethora of sources. Some even seemed pretty reliable and offered quite a bit of information. I suppose it's not surprising that a site called "Cooking for Engineers" would have a detailed discussion of the topic as well. Heck, there's even a "Food Grade Bag & Catalog Store" and another site called "Emergency Essentials" with another selection, if you're so minded. I imagine if they're selling this stuff by advertising it for food uses, they're pretty safe.

Happy brining!