ChefGEB wrote

Maybe we could do a group dinner at The Berghoff to celebrate their legacy, and what their presence means to this great city.

Count me in for this! Even if the Berghoff stays in the Berghoff family, it doesn't sound like it's going to be the same thing at all.

Vital Information wrote:A couple of interesting items in the article in today's Trib:

From that same article, a curious statement:
The men-only tradition ended in 1969 when seven members of the National Organization for Women sat down at the bar and demanded service.

Where exactly did these women "sit down"? There were no stools in the bar in 1969. In fact, the presence of the stools (which I dislike) is a very recent thing.

A friend of mine used to be one of the [few] women that would visit the standup bar early in the 'co-ed' days and, while the bartenders would serve her, they insisted on referring to her as "Sir".

geli wrote:ChefGEB wrote

Maybe we could do a group dinner at The Berghoff to celebrate their legacy, and what their presence means to this great city.

Count me in for this! Even if the Berghoff stays in the Berghoff family, it doesn't sound like it's going to be the same thing at all.

A final grand hurrah definitely sounds in order. I already organized one large LTH event for a restaurant-on-the-fringe-of-ruin this season...but I'd like to come if and when such an event takes place at the Berghof.

Hammond

tem wrote:A dissenting view: I went there with a group a couple weeks ago and had the most disgusting version of saurbraten & cold spaetzle I've ever had. It was basically just 3rd rate "roast beef"/shoe leather smothered in an almost inedible sauce. "Melt in your mouth" ... right. The syrupy root beer contained almost zero carbonation, either.

yuck.

Ditto.

I stopped in for lunch beginning of December.
"Pot Roast" sounded good on a blustery day. So did the description on the menu.
It was dry slices of beef with (tasty) gravy atop; about 3 carrot sticks, 3 celery sticks & some onion....all hard as a rock atop a mound of unremarkable mashed potatoes. Creamed spinach on the side (ok, nothing to write home about)

Everything was nice & tepid.

The best thing was the slice of multi-grain bread.

DIS-appointed!

I suspect there will be multiple outings for this. A group from my office will definitely be doing a Berghoff Bar refresher and I'll post a shout-out in the events section once we've selected the date. I would welcome a restaurant event as well.

I am glad to hear that the bar will remain in some form though have the normal trepidation about how it might be transformed. I certainly hope that as many of the current staff at all the venues are able to be retained.

I'm up for one more trip to Berghoff's for lunch/dinner. Although the food has gone downhill over the years, it's still a nostalgic place that I would love to visit one more time before it's gone.

So, I wonder: if they change the name, but keep a bar-type instituion going, do they get to keep Liquor License No. 1?

sweetsalty wrote:So, I wonder: if they change the name, but keep a bar-type instituion going, do they get to keep Liquor License No. 1?

I'm not a lawyer, but I used to watch Law and Order, so in my professional opinion, I would guess that the corporation would retain the license and the bar would simply do business as "17 West at the Berghoff."

Hammond

Some things to consider regarding the closing:

1. For those of a certain age, you will remember that Berghoff opened a large outpost on Wabash sometime in the late 60s or early 70s, which did decent business in its early years. The family closed it when business faded.

2. Herman Berghoff (the current) purchased the old-time Tosi's Restaurant in "Harbor Country" Michigan a number of years ago. I don't know if he still owns it (or even if it's still open), but I can't imagine it ever doing well for decades.

3. My understanding about the family's foray into the branded beer business is that it has not been especially rewarding financially.

I'm pretty sure liquor licenses are attached to a property and not a business itself so if they had another bar at the same site, it would probably keep #1.

I have a friend who works at the Francesca's Forno and they said they had a bitch of a time w/ the city because the Soul Kitchen had been busted several times for serving underage people. And even though the two places have different owners, they still had to deal with it because it is in the same space.

And I'm pretty sure that's why the old Lounge Ax couldn't just up and move to a new space when all their neighbor problems began as they couldn't take the liquor license with them.

Olde School wrote:Some things to consider regarding the closing:

2. Herman Berghoff (the current) purchased the old-time Tosi's Restaurant in "Harbor Country" Michigan a number of years ago. I don't know if he still owns it (or even if it's still open), but I can't imagine it ever doing well for decades.

Tosi's is still open. I don't know about ownership and haven't eaten there in years.

As one of the old-timers who remembers the Berghoff outpost on Wabash, I can say that street traffic in the Loop dried up by the early 1970s. Saturday evening was dead because of widespread fear about being downtown after the rioting in the late 1960s. I felt perfectly safe waiting for the 151 bus on State Street after CSO concerts because about 1/3 of the people around were police officers. The total options for a post-symphony snack or drink were Miller's Pub (then on Adams) or in the Palmer House. Maybe the Village part of the Italian Village was still open that late, but it had the same quality issues then as now. People with evening experience in the Loop only in the last 10-15 years are unlikely to be able to comprehend what it was like. This was a dismal period for the downtown.

IIRC the Wabash Berghoff outpost was handled by Carlyn, who later used the space for her nascent catering operation.

My recollection of the quality decline at Berghoff is that it was due to efforts to hold the line on prices as much as possible during the inflation of the 1970s. The quality issues are not recent.

Just wondering what are some of your thoughts are on the fact that many of the old Chicago institutions (Marshall Field's, Trader Vic's, The Berghoff, The Drake, etc) are closing or changing, just as Chicago is firmly planting itself on the culinary map as one of the most creative food cities in America. Is there room enough for both, or is change something that is to be expected?

Put away the razor blade, no need to take your life because the world turns yet another day.

A business either keeps pace with the changing world around it or it perishes. Or. a business owner makes a well-intentioned but mis-guided decision that causes the business to perish. This has been the story of commerce since the very beginning of time.

Chicago's not just become planted "on the culinary map," it's been there for a long time now and the closings/alteratons/name changes of several places don't involve any quality operations from my viewpoint.

Macy's decision to discard the Field's name will, I believe, prove to be a mistake in this market and I will not be surprised to see the name emerge once again in the years to come. But, if we're honest with ourselves . . . the Marshall Field's that some people lament the departure of hasn't existed in practice for at least the past couple of decades.

If we're to believe the public relations spin surrounding the closing of Trader Vic's in the Palmer House, the restaurant will live to see another day in a different location, sometime in the future. But, if we're honest with ourselves . . . the Trader Vic's of 2005 didn't offer the same experience and quality it did in its earlier years and the dining public chose to eat elsewhere.

The fuss over the altering of the business plan/operation of The Berghoff has amused me, because of the confusion over what the place is today versus what it was when it was a distinctive and excellent restaurant and because so many people haven't taken the time to learn about the Who, What, Why, When, Where and How of the development. If we're honest with ourselves . . . we'll admit that The Berghoff is more amusement arcade than a good restaurant. Using the facility as a banquet room is probably more appropriate given the marketplace and what The Berghoff want's to offer it.

I'm not aware of any major changes planned for The Drake Hotel, and maybe I've missed some discussion of that (condo conversion, perhaps?). I think I read that the ownership changed, but that Hilton International will continue to manage the property. Hotel ownership changes are commonplace. I eat at the hotel infrequently, and haven't stayed in one of its rooms in decades. The last meal I had there was two weeks ago in the Coq d'Or Room/Lounge. The Cape Cod Room offerings served in the Coq d'Or met my expectations (as they did when I last ate in the Cape Cod Room itself). If the ownership of the hotel doesn't keep infusing capital into the property to compete with other prestigious competing properties nearby guests will simply walk down the street to the Four Seasons or another such quality property and The Drake will cease to be what we've come to admire about the place over the years.

I think traditions are important. But I don't patronize a business I think unworthy of support solely to support it's tradition. A business has to offer something of value to me to earn my loyalty. Field's, Trader Vic and The Berghoff . . . I think they may do more harm to a community than good, given the current state of their operations.

ChefGEB wrote:Just wondering what are some of your thoughts are on the fact that many of the old Chicago institutions (Marshall Field's, Trader Vic's, The Berghoff, The Drake, etc) are closing or changing, just as Chicago is firmly planting itself on the culinary map as one of the most creative food cities in America. Is there room enough for both, or is change something that is to be expected?

Perhaps I'm jaded but I think changes like these are inevitable. I've lived through so many of them that it's hard to see it any other way. But I don't think they necessarily reflect a territorial market battle between new and old. Even in the best of circumstances, places come and go. And in a metro area this large, there's room for everyone (who's prepared to compete).

In the case of the Berghoff, I think there are some very specific issues which are the driving the changes and they aren't directly related to the "market."

I also believe, perhaps naively, that increased focus on Chicago's creative cuisine actually helps raise the awareness of and interest in our overall cuisine. I have no way of proving such a hunch. But increased interest in our creative dining scene seems to have generated a certain amount of its own momentum -- momentum which has traveled via fairly mainstream conduits. That momentum is one component -- and a strong one -- behind the ever-growing, destination-specific, culinary interest in our city. But that interest will always extend beyond the "creative" side of our culinary scene and I think it always has. Visitors will eternally chase down hot dogs, deep dish pizzas and Italian beef sandwiches while they are here, regardless of what specifically brought them to town.

=R=

Bill wrote:The fuss over the altering of the business plan/operation of The Berghoff has amused me, because of the confusion over what the place is today versus what it was when it was a distinctive and excellent restaurant and because so many people haven't taken the time to learn about the Who, What, Why, When, Where and How of the development.

At the LTHforum party last summer, George R gave me a book of menus from Chicago's restaurants past. The Berghoff had a startling menu item which I am sorry no longer exists: a caviar sandwich; which by itself tells you the Berghoff of 2-3 generations ago was place of different character.

On the radio this evening, I learned Berghoff's served men-only until about 1969, is this true?

Interestingly, about a month ago I had some friends from out of town who were seeking German food. They knew of the Berghoff, which I actively discouraged. I was steering them more to Lincoln Ave and Irving Park or to Edelweiss on the far west side. I thought Berghoff was living off its laurels foodwise with better food and value to be had elsewhere.

Regards,

Cathy2 wrote:
On the radio this evening, I learned Berghoff's served men-only until about 1969, is this true?

Just the stand-up bar.

If the Berghoff is not what it used to be that hardly proves that a high quality restaurant, subtly modernized, in an historic space couldn't do well. It seems downright perverse, in fact, to think so in a town where the leading restaurant management company recently opened an ersatz historic restaurant (Petterino's) only a few blocks away.

Not every old thing needs to be saved just because it's old, and certainly the old shouldn't be allowed to stifle the birth of the new-- you only have to look at the comics pages to see what happens to an art form when tenure is granted to everything of a certain age, no matter how lame it's gotten (or been all along). But losing the Berghoff would be like tossing out the Monets from the Art Institute; by this point it has become one of a kind, only Gene & Georgetti's really even comes close in terms of history and character, that I can think of. (The Cape Cod Room has the history but I'm less convinced about the character.) GAF just posted about Peter Luger, and who didn't instantly want to go there and experience it, quirks and all? The Berghoff should be like that for Chicago; and maybe, if we're lucky, it will be again.

ChefGEB wrote:Just wondering what are some of your thoughts are on the fact that many of the old Chicago institutions (Marshall Field's, Trader Vic's, The Berghoff, The Drake, etc) are closing or changing, just as Chicago is firmly planting itself on the culinary map as one of the most creative food cities in America. Is there room enough for both, or is change something that is to be expected?

I would hope and believe that there is room enough for both, but reality is telling me otherwise. That is truly sad.

Even though the Berghoff in its later days couldn't be called a genuine German restaurant, its demise does make me wonder what happened to cause so many others of Chicago's German institutions to shut their doors.

The Red Star Inn (originally on Germania Place, near Clark and North); Binyon's (on Plymouth Court); Zum Deutchen Eck (Southport and Wellington); Kuhn's Delicatessen (on Lincoln near Belmont); The Black Forest (on Clark near Diversey) are the ones that immediately come to mind.

Were these places dependent on German-Americans, who began leaving the neighborhoods? Did the food fall out of favor? Was it a long, slow decline somehow linked to a post-WWII sentiment?

As Fred Willard would ask, "Whaa happened?"

Olde School wrote:Even though the Berghoff in its later days couldn't be called a genuine German restaurant, its demise does make me wonder what happened to cause so many others of Chicago's German institutions to shut their doors.

The Red Star Inn (originally on Germania Place, near Clark and North); Binyon's (on Plymouth Court); Zum Deutchen Eck (Southport and Wellington); Kuhn's Delicatessen (on Lincoln near Belmont); The Black Forest (on Clark near Diversey) are the ones that immediately come to mind.

Were these places dependent on German-Americans, who began leaving the neighborhoods? Did the food fall out of favor? Was it a long, slow decline somehow linked to a post-WWII sentiment?

As Fred Willard would ask, "Whaa happened?"

OS:

This very question has been the focus of discussion on some previous occasions, leading even to some unwarranted gnashing of teeth. Here are two threads where the issue is treated at some length (there may be another one):

"Berghoff"
http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=16412#16412

"Glunz Bavarian Haus"
http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=2062#2062

Antonius

If the bar (with its permit #1), the building, and, hopefully, the sign remain, I don't think we'll be missing much. I enjoyed the "experience" of dining at the Berghoff (unique, now, only because all the others like it--Binyon's, Red Star, etc.--have disappeared), but I pretty much limited my choices to the sausage (always a good value), the rye bread, and the beer. In general the food itself will not be missed.

It sounds as if the new owner is going to maintain the viability of the space as a private catering service, and perhaps someday we might find another restaurant at the address (still, again hopefully, with the Berghoff sign flashing outside). The good news is, at least as far as we know, the site won't be a victim to progress, flattened for a parking garage or condo tower.

Strange discussion to say the least. I used to work with a bunch of people that were about 15 years younger than myself. About 8 years ago we were downtown for some business and I talked them all into going to The Berghoff. It had been a few years since I'd been there, but none of these kids had ever been there.

At one time it was one of my favorite places to go. I couldn't believe how mediocore it now seemed. Not bad, but surely no longer a destination place. I was almost a little embarrassed that I talked the group into going there.

Yet every one of these kids loved it. It was something they'd never experienced before and they were fascinated. I was constantly being asked by them about going back there.

And this got me to wondering. When I loved the place and I was in my early 20's, was there some old fart sitting at the next table lamenting about how the place had gone downhill? Has it really gone downhill that much? Or have we all lost our youth?

midas wrote:Has it really gone downhill that much? Or have we all lost our youth?

Yes and Yes.

midas wrote:And this got me to wondering. When I loved the place and I was in my early 20's, was there some old fart sitting at the next table lamenting about how the place had gone downhill? Has it really gone downhill that much? Or have we all lost our youth?

I appreciate very much the charms of the physical setting of the bar and the restaurant and have always found the place to have a really pleasant atmosphere, not just on account of the look of the place but also on account of the comportment of the staff and many happy guests. I regret the place might change with regard to those features.

But the renditions of German dishes I have had there -- with the exception of the sausages -- have been consistently bad -- to my mind, strikingly bad. I don't know how the German food of the past 15 years compares to the German food served there in previous times, but from my perspective, I must hope that it is the case that the food has gone downhill, lest I be left with the mystery of how the Berghoff originally gained its good reputation.

I find it a shame that they didn't manage to or perhaps bother to find a chef and cookstaff that could match the quality of such good, basic German places as Resi's or Laschet's or, for that matter, of other 'Mitteleuropa' places such as Zascianek. Perhaps, so long as business was good, they didn't feel the need to change things or were even afraid to change things ('give the people what they like'), but I still find it regrettable. I would certainly have been a regular diner there for the many years I lived a short walk away in Printers' Row, if I had found the German offerings there even just good (i.e., not necessarily great).

If they keep the bar going and improve the food offered in the café without doing violence to the look of the place, the change will be for the better. If they ultimately just shut it down, it will be but the second step in a protracted two step process of loss.

Antonius

mein gott, i agree with antonius!

btw, i will only go to berghoff for dinner if:

1. we get to sit in the VIP room where ashcroft eats, when he's in town and

2. They prepare some "drunken Man" pickled bologna for Rene G.

Olde School said

Even though the Berghoff in its later days couldn't be called a genuine German restaurant, its demise does make me wonder what happened to cause so many others of Chicago's German institutions to shut their doors. The Red Star Inn (originally on Germania Place, near Clark and North); Binyon's (on Plymouth Court); Zum Deutchen Eck (Southport and Wellington); Kuhn's Delicatessen (on Lincoln near Belmont); The Black Forest (on Clark near Diversey) are the ones that immediately come to mind.

Binyon's and Golden Ox were sold by retiring owners to buyers who ran them into the ground and went broke. Change of ownership followed by going downhill seems fairly common in the restaurant industry, not just with German restaurants. The Black Forest (on Clark) was another case of retiring owners. I don't remember whether there was a short period under new ownership before final closing. As I recall the building and business were for sale for quite a long time. Retiring owners and difficulty in selling the real estate were behind the closing of Heidelberger Fass at 4300 North Lincoln.

Red Star Inn was a casualty of urban renewal. The reincarnation on Irving Park (just west of Kennedy Expressway) was basically just using the name and wasn't very good the one time I ate there.

Zum Deutschen Eck had an owner who wanted to retire and cash in on the land value. There were all sorts of thngs going on between developer and community on density. In the end the developer built condos on what had been parking lots while St. Alphonsus Church got the site of the restaurant for use as a parking lot.

The Lincoln-Belmont area had been heavily German but very few Germans were left by the time Kuhn's Delicatessen left while the commercial area was becoming blighted. Germans had moved northward along Lincoln with more in North Center and Lincoln Square than in Lakeview but even more in suburbs. Dinkel's Bakery and Paulina Market (moved from Paulina just south of Roscoe) are the only older German food businesses left in Lakeview to my knowledge. I wonder if the Kuhn's Delicatessen in Deerfield and the endangered Black Forest Market in Morton Grove are the result of moves from Lakeview. The Black Forest Meat Market was on Belmont just east of Ashland and was acquired for parking lot expansion by Lakeview Bank.

I patronized all of these businesses multiple times with the exception of the Red Star Inn.

One of the things that is happening in cities today is that establishments that had a local or regional identity are being replaced either by national identities (Field's to Macy's) or by establishments that may be locally owned but are generic in their orientation (Berghoff to 17 West). In both cases this did not require a change in ownership (in the Berghoff case, it remains in the family).

And this is in part a function of all of us outsiders (me, too) who have moved without any particular affiliation to our city. The only counter-trend is what sociologists (such as Northwestern's Wendy Griswold) speaks of as "Cowbirds" - those new migrants to a region who immerse themselves in the local culture. However, the trend seems to be away from the creation of esoteric regional establishments, such as what Berghoff's had represented.

Someday (soon?) we may hear that the Drake Hotel is gone, and we will be left with the Peninsula, certainly as good, in fact better (with credit to Chef GEB), but not a Chicago institution, despite its location. And of course national institutions have pools of money to create better establishments, even if their local roots are suspect.

A friend of mine once claimed that the next trend in professional sports will be the decoupling of teams from cities. Teams will be - he suggested - international corporate brands and they will play at Stadia throughout the country (or in his fantasy throughout the world). So we may see the Macy White Sox vs. The Limited Cubs.

Cathy 2 wrote:

On the radio this evening, I learned Berghoff's served men-only until about 1969, is this true?

I distinctly recall that about 1970 I met one of the women who was among the group which broke the Berghoff bar's men-only rule the year before.

She said that it turned out to be a disappointing event. The women had expected confrontation and fireworks. Instead when they went in, the response was simply to ask for their order. So they just quietly had their beer and sandwiches.

Olde School wrote:Even though the Berghoff in its later days couldn't be called a genuine German restaurant, its demise does make me wonder what happened to cause so many others of Chicago's German institutions to shut their doors.

Here's another thread on that subject.

FWIW, I don't think the Berghoff is a German restaurant so much as an American restaurant offering some German fare.