Dining Reco's for Belmont/Narragansett area (60634-ish)?

I just moved a bit further out in the city than my usual stomping grounds - to the Montclare neighborhood, roughly Belmont & Narragansett, close to the old Brickyard and almost equally close to "the HIP" (Harlem Irving Plaza). There seems to be a vast array of dining choices around here, (including an especially amazing variety of pizzerias, and the famous Pollo Campero right down the street) but I've already had some not-so-great experiences with places I chose on my own. I'd love to get some recommendations from forum members - from street eats to dining in to home delivery - any places that are not to be missed? And equally important - any places to be avoided like the plague? Any and all help with this would be much appreciated!

((Merry Christmas! edited my post title to better ID my 'hood )

It's been mentioned a few times here, but a really small, really ugly looking place called Mr. D's Shish-Ka-Bob is about 6600 on Diversey. They just might be the best fries in the city and the ka-bob, while hardly standard fare, is mildly addictive. Just don't be scared by the way it looks.

Another place I really like is Michael's Beef at North and Oak Park. Again, pretty good fries. And the Italian Beef is very good.

All sortsa hidden gems in this part of the woods.

I had several good meals, then a so-so one with SethZ, but pupusa's at El Guanco are always fun to eat.

I have a post in the works on the Czech paradox, but a dinner the other night at Operetta was as good as ever.

Lotsa good coffee places on Harlem. Caffe Italia probably still my favorite.

Zascianek is one of my favorites for non-buffet Polish food. Get the kontractor's special if hungry.

La Ley is a better than average taqueria, with some really good tacos al pastor.

After Freddy's, I say the best Italian market around is this place at the far reaches of city limits.

Jolly Inn at Natchez and Irving has a really quality, yet inexpensive Polish buffet.

I also agree that Michael's Beef is really good!

If you crave Greek food, try Central Gyros on Central just south of Belmont.

If you crave late food, try Toots at Central and Montrose.

For a really good inexpensive half chicken dinner, try Broiler's Flip at the corner of Austin and Montrose.

Hope this helps!

midas wrote:Mr. D's Shish-Ka-Bob is about 6600 on Diversey. They just might be the best fries in the city and the ka-bob, while hardly standard fare, is mildly addictive. Just don't be scared by the way it looks.... Another place I really like is Michael's Beef at North and Oak Park. Again, pretty good fries. And the Italian Beef is very good.

Thanks midas - 2 very good leads, good fries are definitely important! One of our first beef sammy experiences in this neighborhood included some of the worst fries I've ever experienced, bar none (and I've had a few LOL). Two decent combos were accompanied by dark brown, limp, slimy, greasy potato wedges that were absolutely raw in the middle. My diagnosis (as a former grill chef) was that the fry grease hadn't been changed in the last year or so - maybe an oops, and maybe worth giving the place another chance - but in my mind (again as a former grill chef) if a place can't make decent fries.. or hey EDIBLE fries, even, then you need to be vewwy, vewwy afraid of anything else on the menu. Those fries were such a turn off that we've been leery of trying any place else around here without some guidance. Oh.. and another combo-related scary experience - we ordered combos at a neighborhood place for delivery and the phone girl said "what's a COMBO?" (they were definitely on the menu). Suddenly we found ourselves staring wistfully at our box of menus from our old address, wondering if perhaps we had accidently moved out of state.

With all that said - these leads are golden, we're sort of living on carry-out/delivery while unpacking and dealing with a few eh-hem =minor= plumbing issues in our new home. (are any plumbing issues minor in December in Chicago? but I digress.) I've passed Mr. D's a few times (on the way to Menards for plumbing parts LOL) and wondered if we should venture in, we'll give it a try this week. Michael's is another good one! I keep forgetting that we are now close to Oak Park also - I lived there as a teen (and haven't quite recovered yet ) but I do remember Michael's as having a good beef and great fries.

Other new 'hood notes: We've also noted that there is a Guanajuato Carniceria & Taqueria in our new neighborhood (again, on our way to Menards.. and don't ask why we don't go to the Lowe's that is only 2 blocks away from us, that's a story for another forum LOL)- we've enjoyed the tacos at their southside locations for years, and in fact think they serve some of Chicago's best tacos. We are hoping this one also is a winner. I'm off to search the boards to see if there are any posts about their northwest side location, if not, we'll grab a few and post back our findings.

On more of a fine dining type of tip - I heard a rumor that there is a newish restaurant close by that is owned by a talented former chef from a well known upscale downtown dining establishment. Those are about the only details I have (dontcha love tips like that, haha), except there was some hint that this is a pan-asian type of place. Still haven't tracked that place down, but I'm looking - sounded like it might be a nice spot for us to go to for an evening out once we get through unpacking! (and perhaps more importantly, once we can take a shower:)

Christina G (chrisfires)

chrisfires wrote: Michael's is another good one! I keep forgetting that we are now close to Oak Park also - I lived there as a teen (and haven't quite recovered yet ) but I do remember Michael's as having a good beef and great fries.

Crazy as it may sound, if you hit North Avenue, you are better off, I think, to travel a mile or so West to Johnnies.

I'm not a big Michael's fan--in fact, I'd rather Buena Beef than Michaels of the IB places within this radius of North Avenue/Harlem. Johnnies is the best by a long shot (I think).

No doubt Johnnie's has a better tasting beef. But you get much more for your money at Michael's. And it's not a bad beef sandwich. There aren't many places that compare to Johnnie's when it comes to taste but Michael's isn't one of those awful places where you order it once and never again. And the fries are so much better that it's not even a contest. But yea, if you want the best beef, Johnnie's is the place.

BTW, try the beef at Mr. D's too. It's actually very good, but not a big seller.

Lots of good recommendations in that neighborhood.

The Riviera Italian Grocery at 3220 N. Harlem is the home of the Will special (hot cappicola, hot soppresatta, salami de prosciutto, prosciutto ham, fresh mozzerella, and hot giardinera) . It's a bargain at $3.50.

Vince's located in the strip center along with Office Max at Harlem and Lawrence serves Ital- American in a nice dining room at very affordable prices.

Directly across Harlem from Vince's is the Old Warsaw Polish Buffet. Affordable at lunch for 48. You may want to put on your gray wig before you go in so you'll feel at home.

Behind Old Warsaw on Lawrence is an excellent Ital-American called Biagio which is run by the same folks who run Suparossa and Pete's Pizza. Great chicken parm and red sauce pasta dishes can be found here.

The meatball sammies at Nottoli and Son's deli on Belmont (west of Harlem) are only prepared on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Their excellent. Plus it is fun to look at the pictures of the owner on the wall who is a professional wrestler in his spare time.

At 3350 N Harlem, you'll find Caponie's most excellent thin crust pizza cooked in their own brick oven. The place has a Carnegie Deli meets the Sopranos atmosphere. But, the thin crust pizza is the best I have found in Chicago.

Hope this is helpful as you venture your way out into your new neighborhood.

Red Ginger is a nice BYOB serving thai standards as well as pan-asian/fusion. The only clunker I've had there so far was a roasted duck appetizer with a fruit sauce that was way too sweet.

I dunno about the italian beef at Michael's. I pretty much live right across the street from the place and if I want a beef, I still go to Johnnie's. But Micheal's has a decent gyros and pizza puffs!

Red Ginger
3103 N. Narraggannnssettt

You all rock! I'm printing these out, they'll make a fab replacement for our 'box o'menus' from the old 'hood, thank you so much!

Christina G (aka chrisfires)

To add to your 60634 list:

Porretta's Trattoria & Pizzeria, 3656 N. Central at Waveland, 773-736-1429. Family owned for nearly 30 years. Don't confuse it with the banquet hall next door. It's our standby pizza place for delivery, and the dining room is worth a trip. Great grilled seafood with spinach platter. Everything we've tried on their menu has been good.

Sami Swoi, 3550 N. Austin in mini-mall; entrance from Addison St., Polish. My Polish-born mom and aunts swear by this place; they're repeat customers. I've yet to try it, but mama gave us a gift certificate for Christmas, so we'll be there soon.

I've never been to the hot dog stand at Addison/Narragansett, but have driven by for decades. Admire their outside Cubs decor. There must be a reason they've been in business for this long.

I heard that a former chef from Arun's opened his own place on North Ave., somewhere in the 6000-6900's. Maybe that's the place you're referring to. Happy hunting! Anna, formerly 60634, now 60641

Anna Z. Sobor wrote:I heard that a former chef from Arun's opened his own place on North Ave., somewhere in the 6000-6900's. Maybe that's the place you're referring to. Happy hunting! Anna, formerly 60634, now 60641

That's Amarind's Thai Restaurant, 6822 W. North Ave. I've been there; it's several steps above your average Thai place.

>I've never been to the hot dog stand at Addison/Narragansett, but have >driven by for decades. Admire their outside Cubs decor. There must be a >reason they've been in business for this long.

Is this the one, name starts with a Y I think... it is a pretty good, tidy and tries hard kinda place.

Glad to get a report on Poretta, too, I've noticed that and always wondered.

YourPalWill wrote:Lots of good recommendations in that neighborhood.

The Riviera Italian Grocery at 3220 N. Harlem is the home of the Will special (hot cappicola, hot soppresatta, salami de prosciutto, prosciutto ham, fresh mozzerella, and hot giardinera) . It's a bargain at $3.50.

Vince's located in the strip center along with Office Max at Harlem and Lawrence serves Ital- American in a nice dining room at very affordable prices.
<snip>
Behind Old Warsaw on Lawrence is an excellent Ital-American called Biagio which is run by the same folks who run Suparossa and Pete's Pizza. Great chicken parm and red sauce pasta dishes can be found here.

The meatball sammies at Nottoli and Son's deli on Belmont (west of Harlem) are only prepared on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Their excellent. Plus it is fun to look at the pictures of the owner on the wall who is a professional wrestler in his spare time.

This is all in my wheelhouse and I've always liked your recs, Will.

I get a kick out of ordering the Will special by name at the Riv.

We've eaten at Vince's many times over the last 15 or so years and never been disappointed. Not destination dining, but a great neighborhood place.

We've had nothing but terrible service and mediocre food at Biagio's. After a half dozen times, we will never return.

After noting your several recs for the meatball sub at Nottoli's I finally partook yesterday. Deriscious. Perfectlly flavored and proportioned meatballs in an appropriate red gravy. My only slight quibble was that I wish the bread was heartier. It is a weak complaint to say that the bread was too fresh.



For clarification sake, I will note that the meatball sandwich is available for lunch whenever they are open. The homemade sausage is available for a hot sandwich only on Thursdays and Fridays. Perhaps this changed since the last time you were there.

Nottoli and Son Sausage Shop
7652 W Belmont
773-589-1010
9-6 daily
closed Sundays and Tuesdays

-ramon

Thanks Ramon. I have to admit that I have only done takeout and office catering from Biagio. It's a step up from Buona Beef catering which we had always used before.

This is all so helpful - many are places we've seen and were interested in, others will be fun to search out - and wow, howsabout that sammy photo!

Here are some notes:

I was going to ask about Paprikash - which is fairly close by - I do see a recent thread on a change of ownership there http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2156&highlight=paprikash. Any addl. enlightenment would be appreciated.

Also - any subs in the area that would substitute for the amazing ones I used to get at Bari Foods (1120 W Grand Ave, Chicago, 60622)

Red Ginger is =right= by us, for some reason we thought it was no longer open, must have passed by it at the wrong time of day. It's now on the list for a visit as soon as possible, Thai food within millimeters of us is a bonus we did not expect!

Yo-Joes is the 'starts with a Y' blue picturesque Cub-themed neighborhood hotdog stand that folks mentioned. On moving day we had hotdogs from them (just driving by the place makes you 'want a hotdog... real bad' . Their hot dogs were decent Chicago versions, good fries and the service & price was right.
Big Reds Yo-Joes
6401 West Addison Street, Chicago, IL 60634
(773) 286-0131

Thanks Anna for info on Sam Swoi, you solved a mystery! We received a coupon for Sam Swoi as part of a "Welcome to the Neighborhood" package, a great discount but no indication of what type of food they served, and the mysterious photo of what looked like a lamb chop 'pop' didn't help us narrow it down. We're putting them on the hot list for a visit!

We tried Porettas based on recos here and they are indeed great, & are now one of our favorites for delivery. One of things we ordered were Cheeseburgers, our expectations for delivered cheeseburgers were not high - but we were happily surprised to get gorgeous and delicious huuuge perfectly grilled cheeseboigers on fresh Italian rolls, awesome!

Superossa - arghhh - we tried them for delivery impressed by their reputation & the gorgeous menus that were stuck in our door (and the fact that they are only a few blocks away). Still haven't had their food so can't comment on it - but can comment on the service. The word I'm looking for would be - ABYSMAL. Took over two hours and 4-5 phone calls from us for our delivery to show up - a delivery that we had already cancelled after the first 1.5 hours of waiting. The ice cold food was sent back. We might try them again - but highly doubtful, there are so many other choices in the area.

One place that we've been pleased with that hasn't been mentioned here is Congress Pizzeria - they have a location in my old neighborhood (2033 N. Milwaukee, Chicago Tel: (773) 235-4455 ), where they always served up some amazingly tasty and fresh homemade versions of standard pizzeria fare at reasonable prices. (admittedly spotty service experiences tho). We were happy to see they also have a location at 5925 W. Diversey (773-7454-3800). Frank, the owner, is at this location most of the time - cooking and keeping an eye on things. Excellent extra-thin crust pizza (you do need to ask specifically for extra thin), a good version of stuffed pizza, their Chicken Vesuv is delish comfort food, Beef Sammies are the real deal,with beef made-from-scratch, & well seasoned (my mate loves their beefs above all others, I'm still an Al's gal ). We also ordered trays of lasagna and antipasto from them for a party over the holidays - it was not only an excellent deal (well under $100 delivered w/tip - with everything we needed - bread, pop, etc) but the lasagna was really fantastic, better than my own, everybody loved the food, and it was so darned easy. Anyway, we were happy to find our old pal Congress was close by - they deliver late, always a plus.

Carniceria & Taqueria Guanajuato at 5250 W Fullerton Ave, Chicago, 60639 - (773) 836-1343 is definitely worth a visit for authentic made to order tacos of the Pasadita type.

BUT - I still am searching for one thing that nobody seems to have on the menu around here - an Eggplant Sammy. I'm crazy about 'em and going through withdrawal. Any leads would be appreciated!

Again thanks to everyone for all the great tips, Christina G

chrisfires wrote:Also - any subs in the area that would substitute for the amazing ones I used to get at Bari Foods (1120 W Grand Ave, Chicago, 60622)

Get thee to Riviera, home of the Will Special. You might even be able to find an eggplant sandwich there, too (depending on your definition of eggplant sandwich).

Riviera Italian Imported Foods
3220 N Harlem Ave
Chicago, IL 60634
773-637-4252

Just a little farther south ...

1. great subs at Alpine Food Shop (an Italian deli) - 7538 W North Ave, Elmwood Park

2. next to the aforementioned Amarind is a wonderful Cuban restaurant, Cafe LaGuardia West - 6818 W. North Ave., Chicago, IL
http://www.cafelaguardia.com/west.shtml

3. excellent Chinese food and killer cocktails at New Star - 7444 W North Ave, Elmwood Park, IL

any subs in the area that would substitute for the amazing ones I used to get at Bari Foods

great subs at Alpine Food Shop (an Italian deli) - 7538 W North Ave, Elmwood Park

I've found Alpine to be a suitable Bari sub replacement. Plus the Alpine operation is more efficient than Bari.

There is another Bari-like deli on Grand in Elmwood Park, the name/exact location escapes me, (somebody I worked with used to pick up).

MJ wrote:Just a little farther south ...

1. great subs at Alpine Food Shop (an Italian deli) - 7538 W North Ave, Elmwood Park

I like Alpine, they make a very good version, of what I'd call the Chicago school of crap submarines. In fact, once, after a lousy meal at Fontana's, I meant to do a post on why Alpine's crappy sub was enjoyable, while Fontana's was not. Needless to say, over time, the need/desire to do that post whithered, and I all remember is that Alpine shreds their iceberg better. Still, at the end of the day, it's a crap submarine.

The main problem, and I've said this before, but aside from Italian beef, no sandwich prospers on Gonella squishy bread. Also, while all of Alpine's ingredients are fresh and adequate (like I say, iceberg to iceberg, they cannot be beat ), that's it, adequate. That's two serious knocks for discerning eaters.

Compare for instance, to Capri a bit east of Alpine on the River Forest side of North. You pick your own bread. Nothing is Fox and Obel/Freddy's caliber. It is still better than Gonella (or god forbid, Turano). The meats are all a notch or two above the brands used at Alpine, and everything is sliced to order. Instead of shredded iceberg/hard tomatoes, Capri condiments with roasted red peppers and marinated eggplants. It's still not a great sub sandwich, but for Chicago, a better sub sandwich.

Rob

Vital Information wrote:

MJ wrote:Just a little farther south ...

1. great subs at Alpine Food Shop (an Italian deli) - 7538 W North Ave, Elmwood Park

I like Alpine, they make a very good version, of what I'd call the Chicago school of crap submarines. In fact, once, after a lousy meal at Fontana's, I meant to do a post on why Alpine's crappy sub was enjoyable, while Fontana's was not. Needless to say, over time, the need/desire to do that post whithered, and I all remember is that Alpine shreds their iceberg better. Still, at the end of the day, it's a crap submarine.

The main problem, and I've said this before, but aside from Italian beef, no sandwich prospers on Gonella squishy bread. Also, while all of Alpine's ingredients are fresh and adequate (like I say, iceberg to iceberg, they cannot be beat ), that's it, adequate. That's two serious knocks for discerning eaters.

Compare for instance, to Capri a bit east of Alpine on the River Forest side of North. You pick your own bread. Nothing is Fox and Obel/Freddy's caliber. It is still better than Gonella (or god forbid, Turano). The meats are all a notch or two above the brands used at Alpine, and everything is sliced to order. Instead of shredded iceberg/hard tomatoes, Capri condiments with roasted red peppers and marinated eggplants. It's still not a great sub sandwich, but for Chicago, a better sub sandwich.

Rob

Wow. That was the first posting I'd done on this board, and now I'm pretty sure it'll be the last.

MJ wrote:Wow. That was the first posting I'd done on this board, and now I'm pretty sure it'll be the last.

Aw. Rob's comment was pretty generous to Alpine, frankly. This is a place for discussion and debate of Chicago's eateries. I'd say that's what you're engaging in. Why not explain what, for you, sets Alpine out from the rest of the pack?

I have had better subs than Alpine, and I've certainly had worse. In a pinch though, an Alpine will do nicely. What I enjoy at Alpine though, is their potato salad. A mix of pretty finely diced (for potato salad) potatoes, along with the other usual p/s suspects, in a very nice dressing. For me, it is a must side for any Alpine sub.

MJ wrote:
Wow. That was the first posting I'd done on this board, and now I'm pretty sure it'll be the last.

Hang in there MJ, it can be a tough crowd. Don't take it personally. This board excels by having posters that do not pull punches regarding food.

We had a very enjoyable meal at New Star two weeks ago. While the food was not standout, it satisfied. The tropical drinks in the tiki ceramic containers rocked! The service well accomodated our small group and our revelry.

I remember many years ago walking into New Star and having the distinct feeling I was in someone else's "territory" -- and they were not Chinese! I detected little of this era/aura now.

-ramon

I like a lot of the places mentioned (in fact riviera was one of the first places I posted upon back in the chowhound days) but there are a few more options nearby that folks haven't mentioned. You are pretty close to the diversey branch of la oaxaquena (just west of austin), Bonnie's italian ice is at I think Addison and Narnagansett, and a number of folks (though not particulary me) like the pollo campero in the bricktown square mall.

Vital Information wrote:
I like Alpine, they make a very good version, of what I'd call the Chicago school of crap submarines. In fact, once, after a lousy meal at Fontana's, I meant to do a post on why Alpine's crappy sub was enjoyable, while Fontana's was not. Needless to say, over time, the need/desire to do that post whithered, and I all remember is that Alpine shreds their iceberg better. Still, at the end of the day, it's a crap submarine.

The main problem, and I've said this before, but aside from Italian beef, no sandwich prospers on Gonella squishy bread. Also, while all of Alpine's ingredients are fresh and adequate (like I say, iceberg to iceberg, they cannot be beat ), that's it, adequate. That's two serious knocks for discerning eaters.

Compare for instance, to Capri a bit east of Alpine on the River Forest side of North. You pick your own bread. Nothing is Fox and Obel/Freddy's caliber. It is still better than Gonella (or god forbid, Turano). The meats are all a notch or two above the brands used at Alpine, and everything is sliced to order. Instead of shredded iceberg/hard tomatoes, Capri condiments with roasted red peppers and marinated eggplants. It's still not a great sub sandwich, but for Chicago, a better sub sandwich.

Rob

That was the most confusing post I've read on this site. You managed to use the phrases "I like Alpine", "they make a very good", while at the same time managing to use the word "crap". I have no idea what you were trying to say, but it did come off a bit pompous (and rude to the new MJ).
Every food has a time and a place when it’s enjoyable; Alpine is no exception of the rule. Today, for example, that Italian Sub w/ hot peppers from Alpine that I ate in my car at lunch was sublime. The word "crap" never entered my mind, but thanks for bringing it up...several times.

In Defense of Crap

Right now, I am watching Vincent Price in The Masque of the Red Death, that classic piece of "crap" movie making by director Roger Corman. The movie is wholly enjoyable, as impossible to take seriously as it is to take your eyes off (except to post at LTH, of course), with excellent acting, competent or better production values, and compelling plot. But it's artistically a pile of crap ... a loveable pile of crap, but nevertheless crap. If I had to choose between a world in which Masque of the Red Death existed and Chinatown did not, or vice versa ... my choice would be clear. But it would be a sad choice, and one I fortunately need not make. So, getting this back to food. Rob's use of the word "crap" does not imply a lack of admiration or, more important, enjoyment of the sandwiches in question. It does represent a fair evaluation (I presume, based on what I know about Rob) of Rob's experience of the sandwiches in question. Not every meal is a culinary revelation, just as not every movie is Chinatown. I wouldn't want to watch only 4-star movies, listen to 5-star Downbeat reviewed albums or Penguin "Rosettes," or dine only at the hallowed temples of haute cuisine for every meal. There is only so much of the best one can handle at a time, and most people need a breather from the intensity of the heights of aesthetic experience, or else they will be overwhelmed. (I am reminded of a story I read some time ago about a quixotic attempt to dine at every Michelin 3-star restaurant on consecutive nights ... it made the guy sick. Too bad he didn't have a good, crappy sub sandwich to center him.) So, a "crap" sandwich is not a bad sandwich. It is an enjoyable intermezzo in the culinary opera. Don't be upset to hear your sandwich described as crap; crap sandwiches fulfill a necessary function, and their consumption is both right and salutary.

JimInLoganSquare wrote:So, a "crap" sandwich is not a bad sandwich.

Let me rephrase this statement, for argument's sake:

So, a fecal matter sandwich is not a bad sandwich.

Or

So, an excrement sandwich is not a bad sandwich.

Does that sound like something you would eat, and then later call "enjoyable"?

Does that sound ridiculous? It does to me. Why? Because it’s a combination of contradictory terms, an oxymoron. AND, mind you, you are using a bodily function to describe an ok sandwich.

JimInLoganSquare wrote:Don't be upset to hear your sandwich described as crap; crap sandwiches fulfill a necessary function, and their consumption is both right and salutary.

I'm not upset, and although it may appear otherwise, I'm not being defensive. I just think it was inappropriate to use an offensive word to describe a sandwich that is not at all offensive in any matter. I suppose this is a matter of opinion, I just feel that in the context it was inappropriate, especially given it was MJ's first post.

Regardless, I will drop it all together.

Chrisfires, perhaps you could try a sandwich and let us know what word comes to mind. Sorry to thread crap.

I really don't think VI wanted to liken an Alpine sub to fecal matter. I think he wanted to make the distinction between low end and high end sandwiches. I may enjoy a Burrito House burrito after a night out, but I'm not going to pretend that it's comparable to anything served at Casa de Samuel. It's just pretty good for a North side burrito joint. Alpine makes a good sub using mediocre (some might say crappy) ingredients. It satisfies, but it's not in the same league as Rivera or Bari.

yourbar wrote:Why? Because it’s a combination of contradictory terms, an oxymoron.

You've missed the point of my post entirely, which was to explain just why "crap sandwich" is not an oxymoron, as used in Vital Information's post. Understanding Rob's post requires one to be a little less literal-minded, and recognize that the meaning of the word "crap" has been extended and expanded through use to not literally be tied to its original barnyard provenance (i.e., as a synonym for fecal matter). Here is a basic principle that many people forget: one word can have many meanings, and also many shades of meaning. "Crap" can actually be a term of affection or back-handed compliment, as I use it in relation to "crappy" movies that I nevertheless love to watch, and as Rob used it to refer to sandwiches that are not culinary triumphs, but are at least enjoyable, taken in the proper context. Your attempt to deconstruct my use of the word "crap" based on one, limited definition (admittedly the most literal) is simplistic, is based on an equivocation and proves nothing. That said, I suppose these subtleties of English usage were not imediately evident in VI's original post, and I can see how someone might focus on a single, literal interpretation of the word "crap" and fail to recognize the sense in which it was employed in that post (and mine).