Jack wrote:I suspect this will get everyone up in arms, but I'm thinking: Why bring an infant to a restaurant at all? It's not like they'll be appreciating the veal parmigiana. --- Truly, I have never understood this.

I agree. I have a 14 month old, and guess what.........we eat a LOT of takeout! Taking a baby out is a huge pain in the a$$! Unless you are at an obvious family restaurant I do not expect a changing table. And I know people won't like this but I would be just as grossed out if someone at the table next to me started breastfeeding. That is a private bodily function in my opinion.

I think the restaurant should have given you a new table and a free appetizer.

Jack wrote:I suspect this will get everyone up in arms, but I'm thinking: Why bring an infant to a restaurant at all? It's not like they'll be appreciating the veal parmigiana. --- Truly, I have never understood this.

I think the equation is pretty simple, Jack; really almost ridiculously simple, and it's hard to imagine anyone who wasn't raised as a pod could fail to be aware of this, from their own memories as a child with parents who liked to go out to dinner once in a while:

Have an Infant + Need a night out + Cannot get a babysitter (or equivalent safekeeper of the offspring) = Taking along the tyke to dinner. Doesn't bother me a bit to see babies in restaurants, as long as it's a comfortable place for the baby. So,don't take the tyke to Rodan, but if you'd think a neighborhood spot like Sabatino's (and that's what it is, if skewed toward the fancy end of the family neighborhood spectrum) would be a nice place for you, the spouse and the sprout, then you are most correct, and you ought to go. Just don't change Junior's diaper in the dining room, m'kay?

So,don't take the tyke to Rodan

Except on Super Bowl Sunday!

Mike G wrote:

So,don't take the tyke to Rodan

Except on Super Bowl Sunday!

Yes, they had the 75-inch plasma screens showing Mr. Rogers and the PA was turned down to 10-1/2 that night, wasn't it? And the waitstaff were instructed to actually smile, or so I heard.

bryan, your experience sounds completely gross. I have two sons in diapers, and on behalf of all decent mothers I pray that what this woman decided to do was an exception, a crazy error in judgment and not her standard procedure. It's embarrassing to the rest of us. I think you should have been reseated, and the mother instructed by management of the inappropriateness of her action.


I don't want to take this thread veering off into another world entirely, but I can't not respond to the following...

Akane wrote:One OTHER thing I'd like them to put in their bathrooms, is a single chair (or if they have enough room, a couch or comfy chair) for breastfeeding mothers. I know it is my right to be able to breastfeed in public, and while I am discreet, I'd rather have room and the space to be able to do so. I don't mind sitting on a chair in a bathroom stall to do this either. But, that's way different than changing a diaper, but it could also be viewed as a health hazard. I guess.

JeanneBean wrote:And I know people won't like this but I would be just as grossed out if someone at the table next to me started breastfeeding. That is a private bodily function in my opinion.

I just have to say that I certainly wouldn't want to eat in a bathroom stall, and I wouldn't have my sons do this either. Feeding one's child is about the most natural act I can think of. That's why state law affords one the right to do it anywhere (the fact that we need a law for this...). I agree that a clean private place to do so would be nice for those who are modest. When this is not the case, I say "oh well". If others are grossed out, well, that problem is squarely their own.

Holly of Uptown wrote: I agree that a clean private place to do so would be nice for those who are modest. When this is not the case, I say "oh well". If others are grossed out, well, that problem is squarely their own.

I don't think it's always a question of being grossed out, so much as simple awkwardness. Now, all my daughters were breastfed, so it's not like I haven't seen a lot babe on breast action in my immediate vicinity, but I find it vaguely discomfiting to be confronted by a total stranger, blouse open, breast out, kid hoovering down some chow. There's nothing wrong with their doing so, of course, and I'd never suggest that; I just feel odd in their presence (perhaps this is something we should all just get used to, but frankly, if I ain't used to it now, I don't think I'll ever be).

Hammond

This conversation has taken a pretty big turn and for that, i apologize. This has nothing to do w/ breast-feeding or taking children out to Sabs - BTW, it was 4 in the afternoon - so really, i saw no big deal in a mother, her parents and her child enjoying a quiet Sunday dinner. What disturbed me was 1) the mothers behavior, 2) the, what i considered, inappropriate response of the management. That is all.

Thank you for your kind attention.

bryan wrote:This conversation has taken a pretty big turn and for that, i apologize.

I don't think you need to apologize. It's in the nature of conversations to meander, and I think we've shifted focus to the more general topic of private acts in public places. No need to be laser-focused on just one aspect of any topic.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:

bryan wrote:This conversation has taken a pretty big turn and for that, i apologize.

I don't think you need to apologize. It's in the nature of conversations to meander, and I think we've shifted focus to the more general topic of private acts in public places. No need to be laser-focused on just one aspect of any topic.

Hammond

Yeah, because I was just about to begin my rendition of "The Aristocrats," right about now. "So a man, his wife, their 12-month old baby, their pre-teen daughter and their senile Grandpa amble into Sabatino's with a diaper-wearing orangutan on a leash, and they ask for the table next to the red velvet couch in the middle of the room..."

David Hammond wrote:...perhaps this is something we should all just get used to...

You've articulated my point exactly and much more concisely than I. I only wanted to point out the stark contrast between the inappropriateness of bryan's neighbor's behavior and the approriate feeding of one's baby. I can admit I was less comfortable with others' public breastfeeding before I had kids--I just feel strongly that given its benefits it should not be discouraged by the uneasiness of the general public. Of course discretion is appreciated by many and perfectly appropriate as well.

[Hopping off soapbox unless further provoked, with apologies for my part in the straying off topic]

Maybe discussion "hijacking" happens when the powers that be don't like a particular discussion. It's something I believe I see from time to time here. No need to be rigid on rules, I agreee . . . but I do think it can be rude/inappropriate. This was a serious discussion, but Sabatino's is a favored restaurant amongst some regulars on LTH, and maybe that's what's happened this time . . . an uncomfortableness with the criticism. If I've misinterpreted the intent of the off-topic chatter, perdoname.

Bill wrote:Maybe discussion "hijacking" happens when the powers that be don't like a particular discussion. It's something I believe I see from time to time here. No need to be rigid on rules, I agreee . . . but I do think it can be rude/inappropriate. This was a serious discussion, but Sabatino's is a favored restaurant amongst some regulars on LTH, and maybe that's what's happened this time . . . an uncomfortableness with the criticism. If I've misinterpreted the intent of the off-topic chatter, perdoname.

As a leading proponent of Sabatino's (hell, I made the inagural GNR nomination for them in June), I have to ask: Bill, what the heck are you talking about? I am completely comfortable with any criticism Sabatino's may receive on this or any other matter relevant to its operations. I like the place; I don't worship it. This thread has meandered all over; I don't see any "hijacking" by myself or anybody else. I haven't said as much, but I agree with the OP's position that the management handled this situation poorly (although it did take the OP a while to lay out all the facts in a completely unambiguous fashion ... yuck, poopie in the dining room!). Anyway, please explain what you mean by "powers that be" hijacking this thread. Are you refering to moderation of posts (none of which I think I've observed in this thread)? Did any posts "disappear" a la Chowhound?

Bill, I can't say I'm exactly sorry that we didn't go another page or two on the precise smell Bryan encountered, but you are certainly free to do so if you can come up with enough variations on that theme.

My own feeling is that since no one was actually arguing the pro-diaper-changing, pro-poo-smell, anti-restaurant-reading-the-riot-act case, that discussion sorta died for lack of further point. I'm not sure the breastfeeding one is any better (Hammond, you caveman!), and I really don't want to get into the anti-kid one again, and I'm a little depressed that my positive, take-the-kids-to-Avec-on-S.B.Sunday thread didn't get a tenth of the reaction that POO SMELL AT SABATINO'S! did, but... go ahead, talk about whatever aspect of this interests you.

Mike G wrote:Bill, I can't say I'm exactly sorry that we didn't go another page or two on the precise smell Bryan encountered, but you are certainly free to do so if you can come up with enough variations on that theme.

Oh, no, Mike. Here I disagree. Let's draw this out further. I really need to know just how poopy that poop smelled, and I hope we can create a permissible exposure level ("PEL") for baby poop particles per cubic meter, on an hourly and 8-hour weighted basis. OSHA needs to know, and I refuse to be censored!

Hey, as long as this is the kvetching thread, here's my kvetch.

A few years ago, I think I was trying to kill the 90 minutes between getting a number at Swedish Bakery around Christmastime and actually getting called on, and I wandered down Clark to just south of Foster where there's a yuppie cookware store. It was actually about 7 minutes before their 10 am opening, but everyone was inside, all ready to go. And it was seriously cold out. So I go up to the door to see if it's unlocked anyway. It was not. They see me pulling on the handle. They continue tying raffia around dog biscuits or something. I give them a look that says, it's mofo'ing cold out, you open in a few minutes, how about letting me in. They give me a look that says they're the gold bricks in Fort Knox and the vault door ain't opening until the big hand is on the 12. So, my wallet and I wander away. It's their right to do that, I guess, and it's my right to not spend my money there, either.

Saturday, I am doing roughly the same thing, wandering Clark for no particular purpose. I come to the store, for the first time in 3 years. I go in. I see a silicon pastry rolling pin that seems like just the thing, except it's bright pink, which doesn't match my kitchen or maybe I'm just not secure enough in my manhood to be buying foot-long pink silicon phallic-shaped objects in Andersonville. Meanwhile as I'm looking around for teal or sage, there's some jackhole blabbering endlessly on his cell phone as he paces around the store. Eventually I see he's not just any jackhole, he's an employee jackhole. And as if to drive home the point, he then tells the person on the other end, as he stands four feet from me, "Oh, no problem, it's totally dead here." (And I'm not even the only customer he's ignoring at this point.)

Eventually he hangs up and, does he finally ask me, The Living Dead, if I need any help? No, no, he walks back to the other employee and says "Sorry, I had to figure out this cake we're making for a party." "Oh, that's no problem, she says, and the two of them proceed to have a conversation about the gag cake he's going to bake for a party, continuing to completely ignore the three customers clogging up their store at that moment. I soon left, not trusting what my reaction would be if one of them did finally deign to take notice of me.

So, comment away, or I'll try again in another 3 or 4 years and see what their customer-repelling tactics have evolved into by then.

I was not trying to be "laser+focused" or "rigid" here at all. The subject was simply, the subject. Once you start discussing children and thier "place" on the board, you're asking for a whole lotta trouble. I would not even begin to enter into those fights.

Frankly, I feel as though i picked on a favorite place of most of the people on here, and it grew into a monster. I don't give a flying rats ass about breast feeding or children in places some people feel they do not belong. That's not the issue. I do not feel, either, that i was ambiguous in my statments. Nor do i want to discuss the pee or poo factor, I thought I made that clear. I think I was as distinct as i could be in my initial post.

I love Sabatinos. I just think they really f*d up on this. That's all. And, if anyone is still listening, I just heard from my sister that Enzo has offered us a free meal. So apparently, Sabs gets it too.

Sorry for the interruption but I can't resist...

A few years ago, I think I was trying to kill the 90 minutes between getting a number at Swedish Bakery around Christmastime and actually getting called on, and I wandered down Clark to just south of Foster where there's a yuppie cookware store. It was actually about 7 minutes before their 10 am opening, but everyone was inside, all ready to go. And it was seriously cold out. So I go up to the door to see if it's unlocked anyway. It was not. They see me pulling on the handle. They continue tying raffia around dog biscuits or something. I give them a look that says, it's mofo'ing cold out, you open in a few minutes, how about letting me in. They give me a look that says they're the gold bricks in Fort Knox and the vault door ain't opening until the big hand is on the 12.

Speaking from someone currently living in Sweden, MikeG - I'm sorry, but you've got it all wrong!

Why, what you experienced was the "Swedish experience" on a level x10 of meatballs at IKEA! This is true authenticity! The mere thought of a place of business (in Stockholm, at least) showing flexibility/kindness/initiative to earn money is seemingly unheard of in these latitudes - regardless of temperatures, exploding 3-year old bladders or wads of cash waved under noses... The real test? Take a quick look as you pocket that wallet of yours and turn your back to see if a self-satisfied smirk flashes up on the employee's face. If it does then SAS might as well shut down its Stockholm-Chicago non-stop as you've got a true taste of Sweden right at your doorstep!

O.K., sorry - back to the poo-poo!

I think all of this is just a matter of social acceptability. Right now it is a lot more acceptable to breastfeed in public in our society than 50 years ago. Right or wrong is not the issue. Maybe in 50 years we'll all sit on potties instead of chairs at Sabatinos and be like "can you believe there was a time when this was wrong?"

Ihave nothing against breastfeeding, I just think it is gross to do it in public thats all. Hey, God made us nude under our clothes, so what if people started saying that they wanted to be nude all the time? It's natural and as nature intended. Maybe if this was a cinemax movie it wouldn't bother most peope, but in reality it would be gross to sit at Sabatinos with flab/hair and God knows what else hanging out!

Just throwing another view on the world out there!

Just to be clear for the record, it wasn't Swedish Bakery that left me out in the cold, they were just the reason I was in the neighborhood. The super-helpful shop is The Wooden Spoon.

I wish more modern day parents would employ the philosophy of my own parents when it comes to kids and nice restaurants. We weren't allowed to go to any such places until we were old enough not to piss in our clothing.

David Hammond wrote:

riddlemay wrote: that doesn't change that some things are acceptable in a dining room and some aren't.

Agreed. Unanimously.

Yes, agreed.

My point is that the argument stands on its own merits for unacceptable behavior because it is rude and revolting. The health hazard argument is weak.

I am still trying to figure out what is wrong with this thread, tho I wonder if it should not be in "Not about food..."

Feel free to skip this post as it probably adds nothing new and was only an exercise in self-amusement, stream of conscious response to the posts in this topic.

Just to recap, by themes (I will share opinions below):

We started with poor bryan whose meal area became a changing table, and he had to leave.

We then move on to the inappropriateness of taking babies out in public, including a statement on the inappropriateness of nursing in public.

To this was added a conspiracy theory - the digressions from bryan's orginal post are part of a subtle conspiracy to defend Sabatino's by deflection, I guess.

Then there was Mike's being ignored at Swedish Bakery rant, which became a rant about the lack of a culture of good customer service in Sweden, and businesses of Swedish tradition.

My replies are as follows:

bryan: have already spoken to this, sorry for you, and glad Sabatino's has come around. I do have some sympathy for their being unsure how to deal with this - patrons, even little ones, probably rarely s**t in the dining room. PD - I do not think the issue was the health risk, at least not for bryan or me, it was the unappetizing mixing of crap and food (remember: smell is a major factor in enjoyment of food). Remind me not to come visit your farm for dinner, btw.

I support the right of parents to take their babies out in public, and to breast feed wherever they please, so long as it is done with the attempt to be discrete, so that people who are made uncomfortable with it are not confronted with it. As a parent of now-grown children, I preferred not to take my children with me to dinner, more often than not, because I enjoyed the dinner more. Anyway, I am generally convinced that the parents are far more inconvenienced than I am when the baby is disruptive, and I believe that when the kid is a real problem it is not an indictment of bringing babies out to dinner, any more than having an obnoxiously drunk neighbor at a restaurant is an indictment of having neighbors or serving alcohol. Just a specific problem with that dining party. Most groups with parents and small kids are hardly noticeable.

And breast feeding is okay by me, so long as I do not feel forced to look at it. If I do not, it also is hardly noticeable (and anyone who finds it disgusting and cannot pull their eyes away might consider some form of therapy to get over that, seriously, since it is pretty easy to look away). I suppose if you are sensitive and a person sitting directly in front of you begins breast-feeding that would be a problem, and I hope some accomadation could be reached, but I know these things tend to get polarized pretty quickly.

bill, you need to explain a little more about the conspiracy to defend Sabatino's by the powers that be. No one has let me in on that. Sabatino's screwed up here, and the only defense offered, besides PD's "your food comes from a farm, and there is pee and poo there," which no one is taking that seriously (I hope!) is that this is probably a pretty unusual event and they were at a loss as to how to respond. Sure, I am pleased they came forward and made it right at the end, but they did not start out well.

And Mike, I am trying to come up with some major slight that compares with yours. The closest I can come is my last visit to Charlie Trotters - we had a 930 reservation on a Saturday night and they did not seat us until after 1030, so we were dining until after midnight and I was just all worn out. No apologies or anything! I do not expect to go back. But I do not think this is a blanket indictment of fine Chicago restuarants not caring about their patrons, even on Saturday nights, or of much of anything, though I was and still am annoyed that I spent so much money on a meal and was not able to enjoy it as it just got too late. Silly me to make a late reservation on a Saturday.

Anyway, I am not trying to minimize your slight, because mine does not compare in any way. I do not agree with those who say yours is a symptom of Swedish culture somehow - would need to be convinced of that. And using Ikea as further evidence seems a stretch. Has anyone ever worked at a Swedish business and received customer service training? To return to the beginning, perhaps we need some inside poop to get to the bottom of this

Nice to be able to begin the day with a wide-ranging rant of sorts.

(JILS - please take note of proper emoticon usage).

IT WASN'T SWEDISH BAKERY!

I'm sorry I let that impression enter into this, just because I had blocked out the name of The Wooden Spoon. The Latino Swedish gals at Swedish Bakery are always nice.

Back to whatever this thread is about...

Look folks, sorry!

I was a) really just trying to be a little humorous and b) reading too quickly to even make it through MikeG's post without screwing the names up.

So, sorry for contributing to the trainwreck and certainly sorry for slandering the Swedish bakery which I'm certain has wonderful (if not authentic) service!

Mike,

Geeeesh, first Hot Dog Island, now Swedish Bakery, this is verging on obsession.

Personally I don't see how someone can generate those kinds of feelings, what I might describe as a Veil of Hatred, for a pleasant place like Swedish Bakery, but, hey, to each his own.

Enjoy,
Gary (who posted for the specific reason to deflect negative discussion from Sabatino's. i.e. Powers that be conspiracy)

G Wiv wrote:Mike,

Personally I don't see how someone can generate those kinds of feelings, what I might describe as a Veil of Hatred, for a pleasant place like Swedish Bakery, but, hey, to each his own.

Enjoy,
Gary (who posted the for the specific reason to deflect from negative discussion from Sabaino's. i.e. Powers that be conspiracy)

These are indeed dark times for Scandanavia. Denmark and Norway are feeling the heat, and now -- thanks to MikeG -- Sweden.

David "Never Been to Sabatino's" Hammond

dicksond wrote:PD - I do not think the issue was the health risk, at least not for bryan or me, it was the unappetizing mixing of crap and food (remember: smell is a major factor in enjoyment of food). Remind me not to come visit your farm for dinner, btw.

I confess to a bit of topic steering. There was a remark about someone calling the health department...then the JiLS post that was intended to be sarcastic. I wanted to make clear that it was not a health issue, which you know is verbotten on this site.

D- I'll type slower for you next time and ask the guy beating up on Wooden Spoon to do the same. BTW, try the mushrooms, grown in pure horseshit.

Mike, I hate the long lines at Swedish Bakery and the attitude I get from the Wooden Spoon folks. However, pink phallic does go well with my kitchen (particularly with the chair in the corner for breastfeeding). How much was it?

How much was it?

I don't know, I was dead.

Mike G wrote:
I don't know, I was dead.

Perhaps if you had exhibited any signs of life, the lovely girls at Sweedish Bakery might have taken better care of you. I understand that they even allow children in their bakery.

I <3 the marzipan cake.