I guess all I can add to this is, dang, don't move to Chicago if you don't like that style of pizza. It's sort of like moving to California and not liking sunshine, or driving, or being in a cult.

For me, pizza was one of the main reasons to move here, and if you could get exceptional Euro-style pizza all over this town, I'd have even less reason to visit New York than I already do. For the same reason Erik and I have both said, individually, that we hope In-N-Out doesn't open here, I am kind of glad that there is a kind of pizza you really do still have to go to New York for. As there is a kind you really do have to come here for.

Pizza ad nauseam

MikeG:

I neither claim that all pizza on the East Coast is good nor that all pizza in Chicago is bad. My point is simple and specific: There is a New York style and a Chicago style; the primary difference involves the crust. Leaving out of the discussion bad representatives of the two and comparing only good renditions, it remains that Chicago crust is made with short dough and has pastry-like qualities and contrasts very markedly with the crust that is commonly used in good pizzerias on the East Coast, in which there is no fat or only a little bit of olive oil and never enough to transform the crust from the bread-like to the pastry-like.

Do I think laws should be passed to outlaw Chicago style pizzas? No.

Do I think that people who like to eat Edwardo's or whatever other Chicago pizza are morally reprehensible or intellectually challenged ? No.

If anyone likes Chicago style pizza -- and naturally people who grow up with Chicago style pizza will be more inclined than others to like it -- that's fine by me and I hope they enjoy it in good health and good cheer.

Analysing the dish from aesthetic and historical perspectives, it is legitimate to say that Chicago style, in employing a pastry-like dough, deviates greatly from the traditional form of the dish; and this deviation is to my mind an unwelcome one: the increased fat level of the dish as a whole, the loss of the flavour of simple bread cooked at a very high temperature, with its natural sweetness, and finally the loss of the contrasting textures of different spots on the rim and in the middle, are, I believe, negatives. One can counter, praising the texture and taste of the pastry-like crust and that's absolutely valid, though for me and many others, not persuasive.

MikeG wrote:
I guess all I can add to this is, dang, don't move to Chicago if you don't like that style of pizza...


I was misled and now have fallen and can't get up.

Antonius

P.S. We ate at Caponie's about a month ago; we ordered a Margherita and it was very nicely and soberly dressed with a simple sauce, fresh (cow's milk) mozzarella and fresh basil. The crust was definitely Chicago style, that is, flaky, though the baking process left the central part somewhat supple and not utterly cracker-like. Not a bad pie.

Mike,

I know I've asked you this before, but where are some of the places you enjoy for Chicago-style thin crust? When you speak of a Chicago school that you enjoy, do you mainly mean deep dish or stuffed, or do you mean the thin, or both?

I agree, good thin is rarer than good thick and I am not the first to observe that it seems to be more of a south side thing. Vito & Nick's was outstanding on the Pulaskithon, there's some little place by the Salt Creek bike trail I've tried and liked (don't know the name, just the location), D'Agostino's has a nice crispy crust but I think I would order garlic on it because the sauce is rather sweet and mild (I can't seem to find that Chowhound post where I compared several pizzas and D'Agostino's won with that caveat), I order Robey St. Pizza because it isn't bad and has the advantage of literally being 90 seconds from my house... is there a perfect thin pizza closer than 63rd and Pulaski, if there? No, probably not. That's one reason I say we should savor the biggest, craziest deep dish in all its Ken Russell movie excess; it's one of our art forms and the alternative is, well, it makes a nice alternative from time to time.

EDIT: Okay, I found the Chowhound post on fairly archetypal north side thin crusts, finally. I think this is one that started one of those hey-don't-be-snotty-toward-the-burbs threads (eventually deleted), too, so before you post something about that, it's already been said!

Northside thin crust report (Pat's, Pete's, Red Tomato, D'Agostino's) (September 03, 2003)

After having a couple of pizzas from Vito & Nick's II, and thus getting very close to the Ur-quelle of southside thin crust Chicago pizza, I decided to start ordering from places with some known heritage in my vicinity and, more to the point, paying enough attention to what was going in my pie hole to be able to judge how close they came to the paradigm of the Chicago thin crust.

The main standard of comparison is the crust-- the typical thin pizza you order-- Giordano's, Bacino's, Leona's, any of the bigger names-- has what I call a "breadstick" crust, as opposed to the "cracker" crust of a Vito & Nick's II with its all-important foldability factor. A breadstick crust has a hard shell, but there's still-- as in a breadstick-- a white center or layer of more breadlike material, which is not present in a true cracker crust (which is ALL shell, essentially). Befitting a lighter pizza, the cheese should be distributed a little more sparingly, too, not the 1/4" shelf of cheese that's standard with so many of these. One disadvantage I've noticed is that because you eat less bread and cheese, you eat more pizza-- where between the four of us we usually could leave half a Bacino's 16" thin for the next day, with some of these thin pizzas we only had two or three small squares left at the end.

The contenders:

Red Tomato-- as you may know, this used to be a dingy place full of old Italian guys shooting the breeze called LoGalbo's, then as Southport yuppified in the early 90s it became one of the first nice restaurants, but happily didn't change the pizza recipe. I always picked up slices on my way to the Music Box and admired that it has the funkiest cheese of any pizza I know in town; don't know where they get it or why that is, but there's a gorgonzolaness to their mozzarella I've never tasted anywhere else. [Note: it's provolone, that's why! Someone later in the thread pointed that out.] Sauce is okay but definitely takes a back seat, crust is just a little too bready to count as a cracker crust but not bad.

D'Agostino's-- as a Logalbo's/Red Tomato partisan I always passed by this neighbor a few doors south; surely I had slices from there but I can't remember what I thought. Ordering one fresh last night, I was deeply conflicted. I think it easily won the crust contest, the cracker-hard crust was admirably thin and crunchy and had a slight flavor of burnt oven that was really nice and three-dimensional, but against that you have to set a sweet, willfully inoffensive sauce that seems to be made for families from the burbs coming to a Cubs game, which doesn't spoil it by any means but keeps it from greatness-- maybe if you ordered garlic as an ingredient you'd get it there. Also gets points for having Caller ID.

Pat's-- this has its fans, one R. Ebert among them. I found that it went too far in the direction of the cracker crust, so thin it soaked up the grease from above and transmitted it to the paper below, meaning it seemed greasier (though may not actually have been) and was not very appealing on day 2. Sauce was flavorful, cheese fine, but I found it hard to love.

Pete's-- I love calling Pete's because even though it's supposed to be family dining, the nicotine-stained voice of the woman who answers the phone makes it feel like calling the police dispatch. Crust is pretty breadsticky and not great, also heavy on the cheese as you might expect in tandem with the crust, but the sauce is pretty pungent and has a definite mustardy note that I haven't had elsewhere.

So, my perfect North side pizza? I would buy some sauce from Pete's, and bribe D'Agostino's to use it instead of theirs. Otherwise, the search continues...

Thanks. Do you mean Pete's on something like Western and Roscoe? I've tried that, and found it not very satisfying, but I haven't tried the others and will have to try to work my way through them.

Yesterday I tried a pizza joint that was new to me (a flyer magically showed up in the foyer, and I'm just a sucker, I guess). That joint was Lucky Vito's on Milwaukee, which I've driven by and ignored a thousand times, but what got my attention (and convinced me to order) is the reference in the flyer menu to their thin crust "Napolitana" pizza. With apologies to Antonius, because I'm certain the crust would be literally illegal in Naples, I do think it has at least some of the characteristics that many here have praised regarding the Northeast/New York and/or Neopolitan style pizza, to wit: thin crust, topped with a very light dose of sauce and cheese (primarily parmesan, there may have been just a dash of something else in there), olive oil, tomatoes (reasonably fresh tasting), black olives (they were from a can) and oregano (dried). The crust had the cracker-like thing going on, with a little bit of pull in the middle, but basically bone-dry around the edges. There was just a hint of "burn" on the crust, which I associate with the Northeast style (having only ever tried that in Syracuse and Newburgh, NY, never in NYC or New Haven). Probably more of an "A for Effort" than a complete success, but I enjoyed it and can see how, if carried out with more attention to fresh/quality ingredients (and baked at a higher temp to avoid the saltine-like crust), it would be really appealing. Anyway, those who are seeking something reminiscent of their Neopolitan or Gotham pizza ideals might want to give Lucky Vito's a shot. Or maybe it would just make you sad. Anyway, I will note that Lucky Vito's is several bucks cheaper than a lot of the competition around here (e.g., Pete's, Bacino's), but the quality is comparable, and this Napolitana style is unique to the area, as far as I know. (This particular pizza, a 16" extra large with two toppings, was just $17.50, tax and delivery included.)

Lucky Vito's Pizzeria
2171 N. Milwaukee Ave.
Chicago, IL 60647
(773) 292-0101

(Their menu has a map indicating they deliver from Lake Shore Drive on the east to Cicero on the west, Lake Street on the south to Montrose on the North!)

JimInLoganSquare wrote:The crust had the cracker-like thing going on, with a little bit of pull in the middle, but basically bone-dry around the edges. There was just a hint of "burn" on the crust, which I associate with the Northeast style (having only ever tried that in Syracuse and Newburgh, NY, never in NYC or New Haven).

I remember stopping by this place on the Mil-WALK-ee with some of the other walkers. I didn't try the pizza, but I can spot a cracker crust from 20 yards away. Burn on the crust is less indicative of good/bad crust, as it could have happened in either style pizza oven and with different ingredients in the crust. Bubbles in the dough are a definite good sign, as that doesn't happen when there's shortening in the crust, and bubbles are usually indicative of fresh dough cooked at a high temperature.

So if I had to design a wanted poster, it would include:
- bubbles in the crust
- browned (almost burnt) cheese
- picture with a ruler to show the height of the slice no more than 1/2 inch in the middle

Maybe we should put it on the back of milk cartons: "Have you seen my pizza?"

This crust was bubble-free and I'll bet it wouldn't meet Rich4's standards at all. Certainly it would be impossible to fold a slice of this pizza (Mrs. JiLS assures me that's the real sign of NY pizza crust).

I was provoked by the recent piece in the Trib about New York Pizza, and tried Santullo's in Wicker Park. It did come close: they have the right type of pizza oven, and seem to cook it at a hot enough temperature. I noticed the fresh pizzas out of the oven having bubbles in the crust, and sat down with a slice complemented nicely with 70s music and felt at home for a while. But there are two major differences that I could see between a slice at Santullo's and New York style pizza:
(1) the crust is not thin enough
It's not as doughy as Sbarro's, but the crust has too much dough on the bottom that allowed too thick of a bread layer. They need to cut down the dough by about 1/2 - 1/3 and they'd have it. This affected the taste of the combination, as being too dominated by bread, as well as the texture as more of a panini-like bread crust than a pizza crust. It is possible to fold this pizza (for those of you who use this test, though I personally don't fold), but you'd have to break the crust to do it.
(2) too much cheese
Crust issues aside, this is an extra-cheese pizza. They don't use so much that it suffocates the sauce like Rizzatta's, but much more than necessary. There is a layer of nicely browned cheese on top, but then a superfluous molten layer of cheese below it. This causes a lot of grease, which drowns out the taste of the sauce.

My personal bias also kicked in against them as they do not offer anchovies as a topping. The pies are pricey at $17.50 if you want a whole, fresh pizza, but it is big. Slices are expensive at $3.25? but it is a large slice. On the whole I'm still looking for that perfect slice...

Santullo's, North Ave, just East of Damen.

But there are two major differences that I could see between a slice at Santullo's and New York style pizza:
(1) the crust is not thin enough


Really? I thought the crust at Santullo's (as I say in my earlier post) was a little too thin. Actually, the crust thickness at Santullo's (if we were to get out micrometers and measure) is probably right on the money, but the texture is all wrong. It's too tough and overly chewy, probably due to the wrong kind of flour or too much gluten, and is brittle and flaky where it shouldn't be. The Santullo's slice tastes ok and shows fresh ingredients (though there is, as you rightly point out, too much cheese) but the crust is just . . . wrong. A properly done NYC Neapolitan (classic triangular thin) slice has a resilient, crispy, almost charred bottom (coming from the bread dough and high temperature) and a glossy, silky, softer top crust, which comes from the lack of direct heat and the partial absorption of the sauce, oil, and cheese. This is what makes a NYC slice so good - the contrast , in one bite, between crispy/charred and doughy/oily, and is also what allows it to be folded. The closest I've come in Chicago to this taste is at Cafe Luigi. It's a good slice, not great (still lacking some "oomph" as far as the ingredients go). Gigio's on Broadway tries, but comes up short due to the same reasons as other Chicago slices - a dough that is cut with fat (defined as "short" dough by others here) and a too-low baking temperature. Decent taste, but the thing falls apart and is a doughy mess. The best slices of pizza in Chicago are to be had, not surprisingly, at the best Italian bakeries: D'Amato's, Sicilia, and the one on Taylor St. run by the little old ladies (something with an "S"). They are not classic triangle slices (nor are they really Sicilian pizza slices, either, but closer to this style than anything else) but have their own delicious qualities. The contrasting, properly done crust being the most outstanding. Of these three, Sicilia's is probably the best - a tasty, balanced (crispy/doughy) crust and a really nice tomato-ey sauce with just enough cheese to cover it (and, for an extra 4 bits, homemade salsicce). Also, a whole pan of this bakery pizza (not sure of the exact dimensions, but it's pretty goddamned big) is under 15 bucks. Not too shabby, methinks. Definitely worth the effort and the wait to get pizza from non-traditional outlets like these when it's so good.

Rebbe

hungryrabbi wrote:The best slices of pizza in Chicago are to be had, not surprisingly, at the best Italian bakeries: D'Amato's, Sicilia, and the one on Taylor St. run by the little old ladies (something with an "S"). They are not classic triangle slices (nor are they really Sicilian pizza slices, either, but closer to this style than anything else) but have their own delicious qualities. The contrasting, properly done crust being the most outstanding.

Rebbe:

As I have said elsewhere, I am not especially a fan of the popular, pizzeria versions of 'Chicago thin-crust', objecting to the flakey, short-dough crust that is used, though I readily admit that when I run ionto a well made exemplar of this style, I can eat it with gusto. With you I agree that my favourite form of pizza native to Chicago is the bakery style.

I suspect the S- place on Taylor to which you refer is 'Scafuri's', no?

Two other producers of this kind of pizza are Ferrara's on Taylor just west of Ogden and Masi's on Western just north of Taylor. The bread element of the Ferrara's version I found too puffy and thick on the one occasion (ca. 1 month ago) that I tried it. Masi's pizza dough is in my experience at the opposite end of the density spectrum, dense and rather thin. The Masi's version I found better than that of their Tri-Taylor neighbour but prefer most of all the version made at D'Amato's.

I still haven't tried Sicilia's pizza.

Antonius

The answer is Follia

thin crust
bread ingredients only (no oil/shortening in dough)
not too much cheese
hot oven

The crust here, as you can see is thinner, and they got it right. They use a wood burning oven operating at 650 - 700 deg F, and cook for 7-8 minutes. The fire is at one side of the oven, so the pizza has to be turned to cook evenly. I enjoyed the pizza napoletana, with anchovies and oregano, which was reasonable at $12 for a 10" pie. Now if they could only open up a place closer to the loop and sell pizza by the slice for lunch...

Follia
953 W Fulton
Chicago
312-243-2888
http://www.folliachicago.com

Rich:

Thanks for the picture. You're right and one can see it pretty clearly in your photo: that's bread dough, with a nice broad rim and bubbles around it.

Nice choice on the Napoletana... che saporita...

A

The quattro formaggio is also excellent. Follia's pizza, for me, was very close to the Pizza DOC experience (when it first opened, anyway) and was very close to the good pizzas we found throughout Italy--all of which depend, by the way, on another essential element of "authentic" pizza a scorching wood-burning (ok, sometimes charcoal-burning) oven.

Other than the above two, and Caponies, are there any other restaurants or pizzerias in the Chicago area with wood-burning ovens and a serious commitment to, let us say, Italian-style pizza?

hungryrabbi, if you like the pizza at D'Amato's, Scafuri, et al, you might try Palermo Bakery (3317 N. Harlem) or Sicilian Bakery (4632 N Cumberland), if you find yourself on the west side of the city. These slices are often called "focaccia" (or "sfincione" by Palermitani) because they are based on the style of hearth baked bread that antedated modern pizza. One of the D'Amatos also has a bar nearby at 7326 W. Lawrence (nice sandwiches and focaccia, only so-so espresso). I prefer the focaccia at Sicilian Bakery, but Palermo has better pastries and good panzerotti. Oops, time for lunch.

This style is also sometimes called schiacciata, somewhat incorrectly, by other Sicilians (schiacciata is a savory pie, like stuffed pizza, in other areas). I'm a fan of D'Amato's sausage.

While it's fairly low on my list, I'd point out that the sheet pies at Pompeii, especially the "special" with breadcrumbs and crushed tomatoes, is squarely within this traditional bakery style of "pizza."

I have always thought that Chicago has a pretty deep pizza culture, with the best and most overlooked pies coming from the traditional bakeries mentioned here.

To me, D'Amato's/Bari would be DiFara's if they were near a bigger media capitol with more decent food writers looking for something "new" to write about.

PS, I visited D'Andrea and Son (Cermak Plaza in Berwyn, I guess it is) after a long hiatus the other day. While the general selection is not nearly so good as I remembered, the ready made pizza dough was quite good. I cranked the grill up to about 500, threw on a lightly oiled round of the dough, ladled on a little Parmalat crushed tomato and some decent cheese, and ended up with a very decent pie. The dough had excellent elasticity, and held up well to hand-tossing to a very thin center. Huge bubbles, for the bubble fans out there.

One finds schiacciatte all over Italy now. I don't know the origin of the idea, but the verb "schiacciare" means to crush, mash or, oddly perhaps, to take a nap.

Jeff B, a medium size grocery with good meat and fish is Joseph's Foods at 8235 W Irving Park. It's not as crazy as D'Andrea's can sometimes be. The selection isn't great, but prices are good and I always leave with a solid dinner plan. Plus, they usually have seasonal specialties you can't get many places (whole baby lamb at Easter, eel at Christmas, fresh sardines once in a while...). Besides, Caputo's is not far for whatever Joseph's doesn't have.

This discussion on NY and Chicago style pizza reminded me to give a heads up on a documentary film being made about pizza by two nice guys from NYC. They were in town briefly last week and are coming back this month to shoot more footage and do more interviews. You can check out their web site at http://www.catprice.com. I told them about LTH Forum and CH. I'm fairly sure they'd be interested in this thread and hearing from anyone who is pizza obsessed.

Uh, I just realized that I'm too hungry to follow this really interesting discussion. I'm heading to Pizza Metro on Division for some really good, potato and rosemary, rectangular pizza.

Maybe this is the solution to the original question. Better than looking for "New York style" pizza (blech), one should look for really good pizza that isn't "Chicago style" like Pizza Metro (psuedo Roman) or Pizza D.O.C. (I don't care if they answer the phone "hello, pizza dock", I'm still saying it "pizza d-o-c"!)

Great stuff. All I can say is that there is room in my house for many pizze, verily. There is something to be said for each "famous" kind of pie, explaining why people not from NYC, Chicago, New Haven, Napoli, etc. look forward to eating pizza in these places. For example, the people who claim they can't get good pizza in California aren't just being falsely nostaligic. It's pretty bad overall.

Sure, I'd like a few more DOC type places. I just had a pretty good 4-stagione at Follia the other night. Nice pie, imported meats and cheeses, great oven. But I still would give the edge to Caponies or even Pizza DOC on a "good day" if such days still occur.

Follia also is making some poor concessions: no runny egg, indeed no egg at all on the quattro stagione? The vapid boy-server who knew zilch about the pizza, wine or the breseola I ordered (just ok), laughed knowingly when I asked for an egg, noting that they get this "odd" request every so often. For chrissakes, even the Francescas give you an egg.

My close cousins back East include pizzaioli who can toss dough with the best of them. (One relative ran into federal legal trouble for accepting some missing "surpluss" Amish cheese for his pizza stand.) Still, I really enjoy an overly-cheesy flatter-than-a-pancake square of Aurelio's or D'Agostino's. And, as noted above, a cold or even day-old slice of Chicago thin can be downright tasty (like pie!). The "real" pizza, as many great a la minute foods, is sublime for ten minutes, edible for twelve.

PS, one thing that gets lost in the pizza debate, and I don't know why, is the clear superiority of sausage on Chicago pizza over what is found eslewhere. This was my biggest pizza revelation here. Even mediocre pizzerie in Chicago use better sausage than most places on the coasts.

And, Chicagoans are the only consumers who more often order sausage than peperoni, proof of Chicagoans' superiority, if not their pizza's.

All this talk about the idiosyncratic Italian-Americanism of Chicago reminds me that this weekend I made my first ever trip to one of those huge suburban Portillo's. The speakeasy theme is a little much, but I have to say, Dick Portillo might be taking over the world soon. I had a very respectable salad and a Scala sausage, both of which I doused with quite good olive oil bright red-orange from hot pepper. But the star for me was my kid's damn fine broiled cheeseburger, of which i took a modest bite.

I'd have to add this to the list of "good" chains, because I ate three things there that I considered good.

Jeff:

Our opinions might differ on some of the points you raise above but I definitely agree with what you say about the pizza -- sausage -- Chicago connexion. Bad Italian sausage is a rarity here -- I think one would have to make a special effort to seek it out. Mediocre sausage exists but more often than not, it's pretty darn good. Our little neighbourhood joint that we get pizza from now and again (typical Chicago thin-style with my not so favourite pastry/cracker crust) varies quite a bit in quality along various parameters but the sausage is always good.

And though I confess to liking pepperoni to some degree, it really does mask the flavour of a pizza rather than complement it in the way a nice smattering of sausage does.

And the bakery style (esp. D'Amato's) with sausage strikes me as such simple, basic, honest food... There's something completely non-commercial, hype-less about it... And this is something I love about Masi's: the pizza comes with what they felt like putting on it; take it or leave it. Maybe sausage, maybe ricotta, maybe anchovies...

Antonius

Note:I had a much longer, well put together post written that got erased when I tried to post it. These are the crumbs, so to speak, of that post.

We do not need more places like Follia and Pizza DOC. I'm leaving Caponies out because I feel they are more of a family place that does things right, which is great---we need more places like Caponies.

We need places that take what they do, essentially the minimum standard for quality, and bring it to the masses. We do not need to reinforce the attititude that what Follia and Pizza DOC do should be considered gourmet or should command a higher price. Sure, nice rooms, good service. They can charge for that. But the pizza, while good, should not be placed on a pedestal.

What do they do that's so special? Use good mozzeralla instead of that goupy crap 98% of places use? Fresh vegetables? Taking their craft seriously? Shouldn't we expect every place to do that? Pizza is cheap. Pizza is cheap even when you use quality ingredients. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but I agree with an earlier post that in Chicago we have come to look at pizza as a snack, not a meal--and damn the quality.

More places like Follia and Pizza DOC? Why not a few places that make pizza like they do but in a carry-out/slice atmosphere. If I could make one distinction with Chicago and New York it's there. And don't tell me I'm using DiFara's as the standard. I'm not. But don't use the places in Manhattan that cater to yuppies and tourists as the New York standard either. Instead, if you were to sample every pizza place in Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, Carroll Gardens--and so on, you will find that almost EVERY place makes pizza with the care and quality that you find in a so-called "gourmet" pizza place in Chicago.

Obviously there are bad ones here and there. But they are few and far between. Why? The level of what it acceptable is just higher there (again, Manhattan is different, with tourists and the trendiness there). Why go to a lousy place when there is a better place around the corner or across the street that is better and CHARGES THE SAME?

The bottom line is that, Chicago as a whole, has allowed pizza makers to get away with murder. I'm sure the smaller take out places don't care how many Pizza DOCs or Follias open. Those places will always be thought of as gourmet and out of reach to the average guy. The bar will only be raised if the average guy on the street understands (and cares, which may actually be the biggest problem) that he's been ripped off his whole life and starts demanding better pizza for the same price. Personally, I think we are just doomed. At least we have good hot dogs.

Re:sausage
I couldn't agree more. We do have that. I happen to like pepperoni but on a pizza the flavor and the grease just takes over the pizza. Sausage, on the other had, compliments a pizza. But I disagree that bad Italian sausage is a rarity. I happen to think that sausage quality on pizza is almost a crap-shoot. Some bad pizzas have good sausage, some good pizzas have bad sausage and points in between.

CMC wrote:Re:sausage
But I disagree that bad Italian sausage is a rarity. I happen to think that sausage quality on pizza is almost a crap-shoot. Some bad pizzas have good sausage, some good pizzas have bad sausage and points in between.

CMC:

Well, I suspect you're right that there is a good amount of bad sausage out there... But my note was in response to what JeffB said and he was making a comparison between Chicago, where there is something of a sausage-pizza culture, and most of the rest of the country with its pepperoni-pizza culture. One point was that there is a lot of good Italian sausage to be had here and I concur with Jeff's claim 100%. Lots and easier to find than in lots of other places in the country.

I have to add too that it might be the case that I'm very careful about where I eat or purchase Italian or Italian-American food and therefore have been spared much exposure to bad sausage in Chicago. But then, I wouldn't even consider going into the average pizza joint unless on recommendation from someone whose taste I trust, that is, unless there was something about the place -- name, look, smell, location -- that made it seem potentially worthwhile.

Concerning Caponie's, I've been there once, find the decor tasteless bordering on offensive but enjoyed a margherita pizza well enough. But I also think the oven is not being put to its best use, given that the crust is of the short-dough variety. It's a proper bread-dough crust that benefits most from the quick and high-heat cooking possible in an oven such as they have.

A

The reason I give Caponies a pass is that it is what it is. It's a family place. If It's not trying to be some hip trendy "gourmet" pizza place. I agree that Caponies could be better but if every place in it's price range went throught the extra effort that they do care and ingredient-wise we'd be, well, living in a better world I guess is the best way to put it.

Agreed, it's a good and straightforward place. What I liked about the margherita I had there was its sobriety. Good fresh mozzarella in patches rather than total coverage of brick-mozzarella. Fresh basil, decent and simple tomato sauce, it was a very enjoyable pie.

A

A-

Don't forget that the margherita, and only the margherita, at Caponies is subject to the strange extra step of taking the pie out half done, before the toppings are added, and rolling the air (and life) out of the dough to make it more like the typical Chicago thin crust.

Indeed, I prefer the "regular" Caponies crust, which is pretty bready, and a lot closer to NY style than most Chicago places. I do agree that they need to make more and better use of the oven, including for the appetizers. I have had bruschetta toasted in the oven and topped with fish salad (your scungili). Very good.

CMC wrote:The bottom line is that, Chicago as a whole, has allowed pizza makers to get away with murder. I'm sure the smaller take out places don't care how many Pizza DOCs or Follias open. Those places will always be thought of as gourmet and out of reach to the average guy. The bar will only be raised if the average guy on the street understands (and cares, which may actually be the biggest problem) that he's been ripped off his whole life and starts demanding better pizza for the same price. Personally, I think we are just doomed.

CMC, I agree with you but caution you to temper the language so as not to make the natives restless.

I went through several stages of loss when I moved to Chicago from New Jersey: denial, anger, acceptance, and hope. Never before have I lived in a neighborhood that did not have a thin-crust pizza by the slice place to go that was basically always open and always had great pizza. But after moving here I tried every place that ended in a vowel for miles around and was continually disappointed. There's Thai food, Korean, many types of Mexican but what about pizza, where is at least the diversity of tastes in pizza? So then I thought that if I could just explain it to people, that there is great pizza out there, this is how it's done and wait until you try it, then pizza places would come. But most people here do not value that style of pizza, so it's harder to find than most obscure forms of ethnic food from the other side of the world. I used to be angry, now I have come to an acceptance, like many immigrants, that food of my homeland is hard to come by, and I try to search it out.

So my bottom line is, be thankful we have Follia where you can get a great 10" pie for $12. And if you want to open up your own pizza place that sells great pizza by the slice, I applaud you and will happily be your customer.

JeffB wrote:Don't forget that the margherita, and only the margherita, at Caponies is subject to the strange extra step of taking the pie out half done, before the toppings are added, and rolling the air (and life) out of the dough to make it more like the typical Chicago thin crust.

Wow, I was unaware of that... In light of the special order thread going on today, do you think they could be talked into forgoing the strange extra step?

A

Couldn't hurt to ask, probably. (They do kind of play up the tough-guy image, though.)