Mike, this is just not your week.

Here is my official statement on prejudice.

(Dutch, Swedes, whatever.)

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:Now, back to the topic. I don't think that it is nice and kinda insulting to me when reading the remark from Mike G. Where the heck "stinky fish is the national smell of Thailand" coming from?

To be honest with you and as implied with a smily face or laughing icon after the sentence, I was laughing when reading the first paragraph. And for the record, I have always enjoyed reading your comments in the past.

Actually, MikeG, Swedes eat rotten (well, really fermented but it smells just about the same...) fish certain times of the year ("Surströmming") so your predilection for the rotten-fish smell ironically fits best in the culture you hate the most.

Like I need more reasons!

Bridgestone wrote:Actually, MikeG, Swedes eat rotten (well, really fermented but it smells just about the same...) fish certain times of the year ("Surströmming") so your predilection for the rotten-fish smell ironically fits best in the culture you hate the most.

I've actually mail-ordered Surstromming to Chicago and have tasted it. It is the most gosh-awful stuff I have ever tasted. Of course, the fact that I've even heard of it, much less tried it, makes me instant friends with most Swedes I meet (and I have yet to meet one that actually likes it.)

Here's an email I sent to a friend in Norway about it, describing my first experience with the legendary dish (I can drink nam pla straight out of the bottle, so I have no general aversion to fermented fish).

I got this stuff with my latest order of snus.

Oh. My. God.

I cannot believe Swedes eat anything this bad. I opened the can
(outside) and was impressed by the pungency of this delicacy. It was
exactly as bad as described. Usually, I'm disappointed at what people
deem "disgusting" and "inedible." Surstromming does not disappoint.

I was too impatient to make some boiled potatoes and onions to go with
it, so instead I found a slice of bread to go with it. Plus some beer
to help drain it down. I had one filet of surstromming, and, unlike
my normal nature, I threw in the towel. This stuff is bloody awful. I
did finish my one piece, but I tossed everything else in the rubbish.
My brother--not an adventurous eater--was on hand just to get a whiff
of the legendary aroma. He was not disappointed either.

Nor were the flies. The instant I opened the can, a swarm of flies
apparently spontaneously formed and surrounded me. I accidentally
spilled some herring brine onto the steps, and now I have about 100
flies feasting on surstromming.

Ugh. You Norweigians don't eat this stuff, do you?

I am happy, though--I have finally found one food that I legitimately
do not like on any level. I won't say I'll never try it again (who
knows? When in Sweden do as the Swedes...), but I won't exactly go out
of my way to look for it.

God, my breath reeks.

Here's an email I sent to a friend in Norway about it

I have severe doubts on whether a Norwegian would be an objective source of commentary or feedback on things Swedish.

jbw wrote:

Here's an email I sent to a friend in Norway about it

I have severe doubts on whether a Norwegian would be an objective source of commentary or feedback on things Swedish.

To be fair, he forwarded on to his Swedish friend for some more objective commentary. It was essentially the same. I am really in awe that there are people who eat this--it really is an amazing food. I still haven't met a Swede who likes it, but I've been told it's a bit of a fading tradition and, besides, "it's a northern thing." Take that for what it's worth. Anybody who is into "Extreme" foods, can order their surstromming from here:

http://www.northerner.com/html/mat-fi_1.html

I tried lutefisk, I've done my bit.

Binko,

If you ever acquire Surstromming again, then you may want to acquire a bottle of Black Death from the Icelanders. I ate rotted shark with several different alcohol-drinks where the ammonia smell was present. When I consumed the rotten shark with Black Death, the ammonia smell disapeered and you could taste the fish by itself.

While we may consider ourselves brave, we can be knocked down a few pegs by a 3 year old. Yes, there was a 3-year-old present at my table who was eating rotten shark without benefit of any alcohol and enjoying every morsel.

If you want more information on this, then consult these two threads:

Rotten Shark & the Disappearing Ammonia Phenomena Explained

Thorrablot 2004, The Icelandic Association of Chicago

Cheers!

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:
And the last place that I want to mention here is Thai Avenue. All of the Chinese-origin Thai and some of the northern-style food are very good, especially Kow Man Kai as mentioned and photographed by Erik M. Laab here is also good. Way much better than Sticky Rice; With better quality of Num Prik Laab but not the best comparing to altThai or what I cook at home.

Enough have been said. I hope that I didn't offend anyone on here.

i also like thai avenue quite a lot, especially the chicken laab, the grilled pork neck and the rice salad dish that erik turned me on to. though I love bua loy, I like spoon's version a little nicer.

Chiang mai boy, I'd be interested in learning what else you like at thai avenue - I have erik's menu ranslation but never can really get it to work for me there with some of the wait staff (without side by side thai and english lettering it's somewhat difficult)

as far as offending anyone, just remeber that Mike is usually joking when he makes a comment that might be offensive (something I haven't always remembered myself)

I don't think anyone was trying to offend anybody. The original post is about Lad Nar from a place called Penny's noodle shop. I am about as white bread as you get so I wasn't even sure it was a Thai place. I just liked the stuff from there. That's all the original post was about.

ChiangMaiBoy,

I am very happy that you have chosen to register and post.

Welcome.

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:Please note that most of Thai restaurants in the U.S. do not simply pour Num Pla and other suaces in the wok/pot when cooking something for a customer. This is difficult to control the taste and very time consuming. Instead, they first prepare a big pots of generic sauces for food that share similar basic taste.

I am not in any position to say what “most Thai restaurants in the U.S." do, but my guess would be as much. In any event, as someone who has spent countless hours in the kitchens of Sticky Rice, Aroy Thai, Siam's House, TAC Quick, and Spoon Thai, I am going to advise the readers here to completely dismiss your claim insofar as it may concern these particular establishments. At these establishments, at least, sauces are fashioned wholly "on the fly," from fundamental components like dark soy, light soy, sugar, curry paste, etc., and each and every dish which leaves these kitchens has been tasted and adjusted for flavour and balance.*

[Dressings and dips are a somewhat different matter as there may be components which have been prepared in advance, e.g., náam plaa which has been cooked with sugar and water to make a "simple syrup" of sorts, and for use in various yam, etc.**]

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:Let's face it! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN AUTHENTIC THAI RESTAURANT HERE.

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:For Sticky Rice, this place sucks! PERIOD!

I consider the above remarks to be largely inflammatory, and so out of respect for the relative calm and tranquility which seems to have befallen these boards in recent days, I am leaving them well enough alone.

Regards,
E.M.

* I believe that the same is also true at establishments such as Thai Avenue, Siam Noodle & Rice, and Rosded, but I cannot testify to the matter firsthand.

** The "house" chile/garlic dressing/dip at Siam's House is a perfect example of this. At any rate, this is a very common practice in Thailand as well, so it isn't particularly controversial. In fact, to take issue with this sort of thing would be like taking issue with the local taquerias for not making various salsas to order.

PIGMON wrote:Please continue to write often. Posts like this make scanning LTH a real joy.

Thank you PIGMON.

zim wrote:i also like thai avenue quite a lot, especially the chicken laab, the grilled pork neck and the rice salad dish that erik turned me on to. though I love bua loy, I like spoon's version a little nicer.

Chiang mai boy, I'd be interested in learning what else you like at thai avenue - I have erik's menu ranslation but never can really get it to work for me there with some of the wait staff (without side by side thai and english lettering it's somewhat difficult)

I haven't tried Spoon yet but will definitely order Buow Loy when I have chance to go there. What else do I like that Thai Avenue? Generally, almost everything on the Thai menu are popular. I would recommend Papaya Salad (Som Tum) if you haven't tried it before. Please note that there are two variations of Som Tum: Thai style with no salty crab; and the other which can be called Som Tum Poo (crab) or Som Tom Esaan (Norttheastern-style) ... basically both of the name refers to the Northeastern version that comes with salty crab. For me, I prefer the one without crab.

Other dishese that I always order are Laab Nerr (Northern-style pork salad) that I already mentioned earlier, Muu Naam Tok (Northeastern-style grilled pork salad), Sai Krowk Esaan (Northeastern-style sausage) and Crying Tiger (Northeastern-style grilled beef.) However, what I like may not suit your taste. Please try and let yourself be the judge.

Erik M. wrote:ChiangMaiBoy,

I am very happy that you have chosen to register and post.

Welcome.

Thank you, Erik M.

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:Enough have been said. I hope that I didn't offend anyone on here.

Erik M. wrote:I consider the above remarks to be largely inflammatory, and so out of respect for the relative calm and tranquility which seems to have befallen these boards in recent days, I am leaving them well enough alone.

After reading the comments from Erik M., I now feel that my posting has offended someone on here.

Erik M. wrote:I am not in any position to say what “most Thai restaurants in the U.S." do, but my guess would be as much. In any event, as someone who has spent countless hours in the kitchens of Sticky Rice, Aroy Thai, Siam's House, TAC Quick, and Spoon Thai, I am going to advise the readers here to completely dismiss your claim insofar as it may concern these particular establishments. At these establishments, at least, sauces are fashioned wholly "on the fly," from fundamental components like dark soy, light soy, sugar, curry paste, etc., and each and every dish which leaves these kitchens has been tasted and adjusted for flavour and balance.

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:Please note that <b>most of Thai restaurants in the U.S. do not simply pour Num Pla and other suaces in the wok/pot when cooking something for a customer.</b> This is difficult to control the taste and very time consuming.

Before getting into other details, I need to clarify something here first. If you read my original posting carefully, there were three issues that I've covered:

<b>1. What were the possible culprits for the fishy smell at Siam House?</b>
* Bad circulation system
* They were preparing the pre-cooked sauces at that time.

<b>2. Why there is no such thing as an Authentic Thai restaurant?</b>
* Most restaurants use pre-cooked sauces to reduce cooking time of certain dishes and control the tastes when cooked by multiple chefs.
* Some ingredients are not available here.

3. In response to another posting regarding the search for restaurants that Thai patrons frequent, by <b>reflecting my point of view as an ordinary Thai -- who hasn't spent countless hours in any of these Thai kitchens</b>, toward the most mentioned Thai restaurants on this forum during the past couple of weeks. Thus, this was the reason why I decided to register and write something.

It wasn't my intention to imply that any of the mentioned establishments were <b>solely</b> cooking everything by using only pre-cooked generic sauces. It is impossible for some specific types of food and also, out of my knowledge since I haven't been inside the kitchen of any of these establishments.

<b>Now, let's rock 'n' roll!</b>

It is impossible for a <b>busy restaurant</b> to handle orders without using pre-cooked sauces at all. A good example is curry dishes and salads. As mentioned by Erik M., dressing or Naam Yum is also a type of pre-cooked generic suaces.

However, <b>I am quite surprised and skeptical when Erik M. included curry pastes in the list of the "on the fly" fundamental components at those establishments.</b> Forget about Massaman which will require longer time, does any of these establishments really prepare a red or green curry dish "on the fly" during the lunch and dinner hours? And how long will it take? A good curry requires low heat to blend the curry pastes with coconut milk to its perfection before putting other ingredients in there. The oil on the top layer of red and green curry--if done correctly, is the production of <b>using low heat to seperate the oil from the coconut milk.</b> Some restaurants that do not know this technique or ... want to cook curry dishes "on the fly" will instead cheat by cooking curry pastes with oil first.

Anyway, what I am saying here is using pre-cook sauces is not always a bad thing. Not only it helps saving time on some dishes that require longer time to cook. It is easier to control the taste of the food when cooked by multiple chefs. More importantly, pre-cooked sauces help restaurants to keep their own secret recipes from other employees. But again, using pre-cooked sauces may sometimes ruin the authenticity of the cuisine.

Erik M. wrote:

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:Let's face it! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN AUTHENTIC THAI RESTAURANT HERE.

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:For Sticky Rice, this place sucks! PERIOD!

I consider the above remarks to be largely inflammatory, and so out of respect for the relative calm and tranquility which seems to have befallen these boards in recent days, I am leaving them well enough alone.

There are still pending issues that I need to clarify ... if my account is not deleted. But due to the time contraint, I need to sign off now.

Thanks for reading until this line.

Regards,
ChiangMaiBoy

HI,

The software of this website has a 60 minute clock. If you spent 61 minutes composing, when you go to upload it won't. If you spent 59 minutes composing, when you upload it does it with no problems.

When you are composing a long winded post, we suggest you do it on your word processing program, then copy and paste onto LTHforum.

Regards,

Thanks, now I know. Oh well, it's 5pm ... time to hit the road again.

Further to the first culprit of pre-cooked sauces that may make Thai cuisine unauthentic, the other culprit is ingredient which I didn't get into details earlier. Again, I am going to use Spicy Basil Chicken (Kra Praow Kai) as an example again.

One of the important ingredients for this dish is basil. Basil is scientifically proved to kill some types of bateria. Thus, this could be why basil is commonly used in asian countries with humid and hot wheather that makes food get spoiled easily.

There are three kinds of basil:
1. Sweet basil or Thai basil (Bai Horapa.) This type of basil is commonly seen at asian or Thai grocery stores.
2. Holy/hot white basil (Bai Kra Praow Kaow) which is also available but not always.
3. Holy/hot red basil (Bai Kra Praow Dang.) This is the one used in the authentic version of spicy basil chicken in Thailand. Unfortunately, I haven't seen it here in the U.S.

Most Thai restaurants in the U.S. will use sweet basil or holy/hot white basil. Even worse, some of them use mint which is much cheaper than the above two kinds. With no holy/hot red basil, then there is no authentic Spicy Basil Chicken. There are other popular Thai dishes with substitue ingredients that I am not going to mention. <b>So how can I call a restaurant with unauthentic dishes a real authentic Thai restaurant. And it doesn't matter if all the dishes are cooked "on the fly."</b>

JeanneBean wrote:OK I think I have come to a conclusion.....I don't think I like authentic Thai food.

JeanneBean, sorry for spoiling your search of a good Lard Nar. I didn't like the version at Penny Noodles, so what I like may not suit your taste. To me, <b>it doesn't matter that the food is authentic or not as long as it tastes good.</b>

Now, let's finish the story with the rest of the issues.

<b>I don't think that my remarks was inflammatory. Please look at the comments in its context, not ripped from it*. </b>

All these years, I have witnessed an overnight popularity of some of the so so restaurants (in my own opinion) because of good press or positive posts on food forums. I have also witnessed the closures of some of the very good restaurants because of the popularity of the others in the nearby vicinity.

<b>The bottom line here is let yourself be the judge.</b> Don't solely rely on good press or positive posts. And don't solely judge a restaurant because of a single bad dish or because some restaurants are frequented by Thai patrons.

<b>I'm not a food critic but I am Thai and I know what I eat.</b> But don't discourage yourself of going to Sticky Rice because of my opinions. There are other good and very good dishes there that I didn't mention. <b>To me, if the food that I like didn't taste right on both of the visits, it means this place sucks, period!</b>

Years of reading LTHForum and going to the restaurants recommended on here has been fun. I respect all the opinions on here. And it wasn't my intention to belittle or insult anyone. But after reading Erik M. comments and the ripped off version of my paragraphs, I now realize that it was a mistake to register and post my opinions.

Now, I have made my point across.

Regards,
ChiangMaiBoy

P.S. I didn't know that using capital letters means yelling. As mentioned in the original post, it was my first time to post something online. My apology for yelling at this quiet and peaceful community.

* I stole this statement from Mike G. without his permission.

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:But after reading Erik M. comments and the ripped off version of my paragraphs, I now realize that it was a mistake to register and post my opinions.

Discussion and debate about food and restaurants are why this website exists. Some of my favorite LTHForum members and I have strong disagreements about restaurants.

Please do not think that you made a mistake by sharing your opinions.

Best,
Michael

But don't be surprised when strong opinions, especially those containing the word "sucks," are met with equally strong opinions! It's all fun, or should be. Really, we need more people (like Tony C) willing to smack down the board favorites. It's boring if everyone agrees, and worse yet if people who disagree think they better not bother even saying so.

By the way, in PhpBB you have to use the brackets [ ] not the pointy things < > to open and close tags.

I know this is probably a "pedestrian" choice, but I've had lard nar at Star of Siam, next to The Reader on Illinois St., and I liked it.

ChiangMaiBoy wrote: But after reading Erik M. comments and the ripped off version of my paragraphs, I now realize that it was a mistake to register and post my opinions.

All discussion and disagreement over specific restaurants and dishes aside - as by nature that is subjective and therefore going to vary from person to person - I'm troubled by the reference to "ripped off version of my paragraphs". Are you asserting that someone here is guilty of plagiarism? I think it's been clearly established that we all have differing tastes, which is to be expected (even encouraged), but I've yet to see any regular (or irregular, for that matter) poster on LTH engage in such a practice and - as seems to be very popular of late - take offense at such a suggestion. I think you should either substantiate such a claim or retract it.

Before any chooses to respond further on this post, why not give an essay by David Hammond a read. Is it so terrible to offer a fellow poster, especially a newbie, the benefit of a doubt?

As Mike reminded another poster recently, we attract more with honey than with vinegar. Erik made a very diplomatic effort to refrain from a snippy response. Follow his lead and life will be a lot calmer.

Regards,

Good will or not, I want to make it clear here that I don't personally know the owners of any establishments mentioned in my posts, especially Sticky Rice.

Now I know that it is more fun to read. One thing that I always wonder and this is my last posting ... is how some of the websites, like LTHForum support itself without advertisements?

Thanks and regards,
ChiangMaiBoy

Might some of this problem have originated in the phrase "ripped off"? It is an idiomatic expression in English meaning "to plagiarize" but perhaps ChiangMaiBoy just intended it to mean "excerpted."

And ChiangMaiBoy, I for one have enjoyed your contribution to this forum. I hope you change your mind and continue to participate.

ChiangMaiBoy wrote: One thing that I always wonder and this is my last posting ... is how some of the websites, like LTHForum support itself without advertisements?

ChiangMaiBoy,

When you hit 100-posts we'll seriously consider answering your site specific questions.

Enjoy,
Gary

I agree with tapler. ChiangMaiBoy might also not aware that "suck" is a very strong word. After living in the U.S. for seven years, I sometimes still being misunderstood because of idioms and some of the misused words. Why take it seriously, ChiangMaiBoy? I also admire your contribution. I hope you will continue to write more.

Post like this is very informative and should not be ignored or misunderstood. The poster made it clear that this is not his first language.

ChiangMaiBoy wrote:<b>it doesn't matter that the food is authentic or not as long as it tastes good.</b>

I love Chipotle's Fajita and don't care whether it is authentic or not.