The deep-dish of desire

Edwardo's stuffed pizza

Deep-dish pizza doesn't get discussed here too often, possibly because so many LTHers are transplants, still longing for the pizza that says home. My birthplace, Detroit, has a perfectly good local type of pizza, a thick-crusted square style with its roots in Sicily. (If you think of focaccia with American-style pizza toppings, you'll have something of the concept.)

I liked it well enough growing up, and I still do, but perhaps because square pizza was then largely an East Side phenomenon and I was a West Sider, I never became an ardent fan. In college, my favorite pizza was the whole-wheat-crusted creation of Pizza Bob's, an Ann Arbor institution even then -- which was an ordeal because they didn't deliver -- but it never sent me into fits of longing.

When I moved to Chicago, though, I became an almost instant convert to Chicago-style pizza. I love the contrast of that rich, thick, oozing cheese layer, 2 inches high, with its thin, crisp enclosure. Soon after I came here, I settled on a favorite: Our "house pizza" has been the Edwardo's stuffed pizza with pesto, sausage, mushrooms and garlic ever since the days when we used to buy it on Howard Street in the long-gone location that had the basil growing under dope lights.

Edwardo's has had a couple changes of ownership since then, I believe (the current owners also own Gino's East) but they don't seem to have fiddled with the pizza recipe and I remain content. I like the crispness of the crust, the tang of the sauce and the creamy, light but gooey texture of the cheese. We're just beyond the delivery range of its closest branch, but we usually think it worth the effort to go pick it up or eat there.

I have tried most of the major local chains. Giordano's would be my second choice. Uno/Due pizza, from the original locations, is always excellent, though I rarely get down there unless we have out-of-town visitors. Bacino's is decent. I don't care for the solid disk of sausage that Lou Malnati's puts on its pizzas.

Satisfied with my favorite, I haven't experimented much. It occurs to me that I may be missing out on a really good pizza simply because I've been so contented. Surely some independents are serving really delicious deep-dish or stuffed pizza?

What do you like in a deep-dish pizza? What are your favorites?

Please, please, let's limit the discussion to the relative qualities of different versions of Chicagoland deep-dish and stuffed pizza. If you feel a need to pontificate on the demerits of deep-dish vs. flat, or repine over Chicago's paucity of pizza in the style of New York, New Haven, New Jersey, New Hampshire, New Caledonia or any other such place, please do it over in one of the many other threads on such subjects.

Edited to add caption.

Pequod's is still my favorite deep dish, by far. Malnati's is in second. I do always ask for the sausage in balls rather than a big disc. Pequod's sausage is nearly golf-ball sized, and has great flavor.

I also find I generally prefer deep dish to stuffed -- and I do think there's a rather significant difference in the taste of the pies -- but when I get stuffed, I like Giordano's over Edwardo's. Once upon a time that was different, but I think as Edwardo's has expanded the quality has suffered.

I love Pequod's, but I would call it a pan pizza, not deep dish. I realize that Lou Malnati's confuses the matter by referring to their pizza as deep dish, but it's really also more of a pan pizza.

As I just tried to demonstrate in a recent post
http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p= ... 598f#64778
LAZ's photo makes the difference undeniably clear.

Their deep dish is true deep dish. They've also got pan, which is not nearly as thick. And regardless, I think the difference between pan and deep-dish/stuffed is in composition, not necessarily depth. The uncooked sauce above the cheese is the distinction, not so much how high the edges of the crust go.

Point taken for Malnati's but I still think Pequod's is pan.

Er, I was talking about Pequod's in my reply, not Malnati's.

Time for a deep-dish-athon to settle the thickness questions for once and for all.

Sorry to not be much use to you, LAZ, but Edwardo's is the pizza that comes to mind in defining deep-dish.

I agree about the sausage-toupee on Malnati's. Even the red meat-eatingest sausage-lovingest folks I know are a bit turned off. Always ask for "easy sausage"; I think they are used to this request and it comes crumbled.

But if you like Lou Malnati's otherwise, I think you'll love Pequod's, whatever you want to call it (they call it pan, and the sauce is not on top. Stay away from Pequod's thin-crust.)

And although the location on Clyborn recently had a fire, other posts said they are up and running again (and the charge on my debit card has finally gone through.)

Pequod's
2207 N Clybourn Ave

and

8520 Fernald Ave, Morton Grove

Greasy Spoon wrote:I agree about the sausage-toupee on Malnati's. Even the red meat-eatingest sausage-lovingest folks I know are a bit turned off. Always ask for "easy sausage"; I think they are used to this request and it comes crumbled.

Man, that's kind of the whole point of Malnati's: ultimage sausageness! Uno's and Due's did it originally, although the franchise certainly doesn't.

We really need three terms:

1) What you're calling Deep Dish here, I usually call "Stuffed": two crusts, fillings between, often with featured 'upscale' fillings such as spinach souffle, and a smooth tomato sauce above the top layer of crust. These are usually massive pizzas. Examples: Eduardo's, Giordano's, Carmen's, Bacino's, Nancy's.

2) What you're calling Pan, I call "Chicago Pan" and requires a crunchy crust, and a love of sausage ;) as created by Uno's, Due's, Malnati's, Gino's East, etc. Other indicator features include chopped tomatos above the sheese.

3) Many other places call a pizza deep dish, pan or sicilian, and from the description above, "Sicilian" might be a nice monophyletic name for a 'foccacia-like' thick crust, usually softer than a Chicago Pan, and often not differing from a thin crust pizza except for the sheer quantity of dough.

Pequod's will make a chicago-style deep dish on request. I'm not sure if it's on the menu, but I've ordered it numerous times.

They also make a fantastic cheese-on-top pan pizza.

Went to Eduardo's last night for dinner, place was nearly empty at 6:00 PM, went there because I had a 50 % off coupon. We ordered the famous spinach pizza. The pizza came and was decent, good cheese, tasty spinach toppings, etc. However the crust tasted pre made and had no flavoring whatsoever, the pizza sauce was way too salty, overall not too much better then the best deep dish frozen pizza. I'd take Malnati's anyday over this pizza. The Eduardo's of the late 80s early 90s tasted a lot better then this.

Edwardo's stuffed pizza with pesto, sausage, mushrooms and garlic

Well, I wrote myself into a craving last night and we ordered a pizza, too. Pictured you'll find a prime example of the LAZ-RheS special from Edwardo's and it was as good as ever was.

No, it's not a strongly flavored crust, and I expect that's more evident with a milder filling than I usually order. But the crust isn't where I look for flavor, but rather texture. And I don't think the sauce is too salty. I find find many pizza sauces too sweet.

If there is frozen pizza out there like this, I've been missing out. What brand, brshwartz, do you think compares?

I had Pequod's recently and loved the sausage and the crust, but there wasn't a ton of sauce on the pie and it didn't have much of a saucy taste. That made it harder for me to see what makes it some people's favorite. What am I missing?

I like the buttery taste of Lou Malnati's crust, while I find Giordano's crust to easily turn cardboard. One of my favorite deep dish crusts is the cornbready one from Gino's East.

I think my overall favorite deep dish so far has been from Art of Pizza.

What is Bacino's like? Does it stand out from other deep dish in any way?

i<3pizza wrote:What am I missing?

Burt's

While I know that many on this forum regard Burt's as the holy grail of pizza, I do not agree. I recently had my first Burt's Pizza and, while I am a fan of carmelized cheese (or pretty much anything else carmelized), I found the carmelized cheese to taste pretty much like an old pan.

Before anyone gets a disagreeing mob together, I am in no way saying that Burt's practices are in any way not hygienic, just what this particular taste was like for me. I stand by everyone's right to love this establishment and this pizza, but I do not agree.

Aha! Back from the dead!

There's a discussion above regarding pan vs deep-dish, and I find the semantics aspect very confusing. To me, "deep dish" refers to thick, Chicago-style pizza, and either of its two main types - the double-crust "stuffed" pizza (served by Giordano's, Edwardo's, Bacino's, and Nancy's), and the single-crust "pan" pizza (served by Uno's/Due, Lou Malnati's, Pizano's, Gino's East, Pequod's, and Burts). I can't think of any differentiations within each of these two kinds, other than the "burnt crust" characteristic at Pequod's and Burt's.

There's also a comment above about Sicilian pizza, a thick pizza whose crust is thick and breadlike, not at all crispy/cruncy; this is NOT Chicago-style pizza, as it has been available all over New York City for many years.

LAZ wrote:If there is frozen pizza out there like this, I've been missing out. What brand, brshwartz, do you think compares?

Frozen pizza does not compare with freshly-baked pizza. (I think we all know that.)

There are two frozen pizzas we eat. One is, whenever we order pizza, we always intentionally order too much, and often freeze whatever leftover portion we can't eat within a day or two. The other is the Gino's East pan pizza you can find in the frozen foods aisle of your local Jewel/Dominick's. While neither compares well with fresh-baked pizza, both offer convenience and, given the convenience, reasonably decent taste.

i<3pizza wrote:I had Pequod's recently and loved the sausage and the crust, but there wasn't a ton of sauce on the pie and it didn't have much of a saucy taste. That made it harder for me to see what makes it some people's favorite. What am I missing?

I find this comment amusing, because it's the opposite of what we found, in a comparison of Pequod's vs Burt's. Some months ago, we tried both Pequod's and Burt's, about a month apart; the biggest difference we noticed was the stronger, more flavorful sauce at Pequod's (resembling tomato/marinara sauce from a jar, rather than the milder flavor of canned tomatos, if that makes sense). I think the charring on the crust is one of those "love it or hate it" things; we did not prefer either pizza, compared with our go-to places (Giordano's for stuffed, Malnati's for pan), and have not been back since.

We frequently have Giordano's and Malnati's, and occasionally have Edwardo's, among others. I prefer Giordano's of all of them because (a) in the inside portion of the pizza, the components - the crusts, sauce, cheese, and added ingredients ("toppings" is a misnomer in this genre) - all blend well in a symphony of balance; and because (b) I LOVE the edge crust, which is like the most amazingly flavorful breadstick you've ever had. Malnati's is good, too. With Malnati's, there's a certain flavor to the crust that I really like; I think it comes from a good dough, and a little oil they use on the pan, and the proper seasoning of the pan. We don't usually get sausage, so I can't comment on the "patty vs crumbled" debate.

I'm not sure whether there is any corn meal in Gino's East, although I know people ascribe its yellow color to this ingredient. If you look at the ingredients list on the frozen version, you'll find that there is no corn meal, only artificial color, but it's possible that the fresh version uses a different set of ingredients.

i<3pizza wrote:What is Bacino's like? Does it stand out from other deep dish in any way?

It's very similar to Giordano's and Edwardo's.

stevez wrote:

i<3pizza wrote:What am I missing?

Burt's

ooh yeah! I checked out the Burt's thread. The pictures look awesome. The veggie pizza was just piled with stuff, and I really want to try that jalapeno one. I'll definitely hit up the spot.

nsxtasy wrote:Aha! Back from the dead!

i<3pizza wrote:I had Pequod's recently and loved the sausage and the crust, but there wasn't a ton of sauce on the pie and it didn't have much of a saucy taste. That made it harder for me to see what makes it some people's favorite. What am I missing?

I find this comment amusing, because it's the opposite of what we found, in a comparison of Pequod's vs Burt's. Some months ago, we tried both Pequod's and Burt's, about a month apart; the biggest difference we noticed was the stronger, more flavorful sauce at Pequod's (resembling tomato/marinara sauce from a jar, rather than the milder flavor of canned tomatos, if that makes sense).

Yeah, I think my beef was not about the taste of the sauce, but about the amount. Maybe we just happened to get a scant pie.

With Malnati's, there's a certain flavor to the crust that I really like; I think it comes from a good dough, and a little oil they use on the pan, and the proper seasoning of the pan.

For sure! So they put seasoning on the pan itself? Or is that some other cooking term?

I'm not sure whether there is any corn meal in Gino's East, although I know people ascribe its yellow color to this ingredient. If you look at the ingredients list on the frozen version, you'll find that there is no corn meal, only artificial color, but it's possible that the fresh version uses a different set of ingredients.

This is a fun thread with people discussing the recipe. Most people think there's no cornmeal, but one guy says that one franchise uses it. I could have sworn in was in the one I ate, but what do I know.

i<3pizza wrote:For sure! So they put seasoning on the pan itself? Or is that some other cooking term?

Seasoning, in this context, refers to the process by which cast iron develops non-stick properties from the oiling and heating of the pan. It usually takes a number of oiling and heating cycles to develop a good, solid "seasoning" on the pan.

Binko wrote:

i<3pizza wrote:For sure! So they put seasoning on the pan itself? Or is that some other cooking term?

Seasoning, in this context, refers to the process by which cast iron develops non-stick properties from the oiling and heating of the pan. It usually takes a number of oiling and heating cycles to develop a good, solid "seasoning" on the pan.

ohhh, cheers

Binko wrote:Seasoning, in this context, refers to the process by which cast iron develops non-stick properties from the oiling and heating of the pan. It usually takes a number of oiling and heating cycles to develop a good, solid "seasoning" on the pan.

Yup. In fact, that's what makes the metal pans look darker and almost greasy, even when they're clean.

Incidentally, the term applies to any metal, not just cast iron. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the pizza pans are not cast iron, but some other form of iron/steel. Cast iron items are usually much thicker and heavier than the pans that deep-dish pizza is baked in. I'm no metallurgist, but I think they can make pans thinner and lighter weight by stamping/extruding/forging the metal, rather than pouring it (casting).

Geppetto's in Oak Park makes an excellent stuffed pie. Traditional ingredients are first quality, but I particularly like their BBQ chicken stuffed pizza, with chicken, kalamata olives, red onions, and 3 kinds of cheese. A very tasty combo.

In response to <b>nsxtasy's</b> accurate description of the Metal Baking Pans used by Restauarants such as <b>Pizzeria Due</b>....

Incidentally, the term applies to any metal, not just cast iron. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the pizza pans are not cast iron, but some other form of iron/steel. Cast iron items are usually much thicker and heavier than the pans that deep-dish pizza is baked in. I'm no metallurgist, but I think they can make pans thinner and lighter weight by stamping/extruding/forging the metal, rather than pouring it (casting).

I <b>AM</b> a Metal Expert (self-proclaimed, althought The Chicago Tribune did refer to me once as "The Man of Steel", in the headline of an article about my work) - and I would suggest that it's impossible for the pans to be "<i>cast iron</i>"- due the the banged up state that they appear in when I peek in on my Pizza order @ Dues. The brittle nature of Cast Iron would have casued much Pan breakage- being that "Mild Steel" is infinately more ductile/bendable/flexible- than any <i>Cast Iron</i>.

Also the "rolled rims" that I observe on the pans from my kitchen "peeking" sessions indicate a Post Forming operation that can only happen with Steel, not Cast Iron.

Based on the pans that Gino's and Uno's delivers the pie to the table in, which I have to assume is the same one in which it was baked, it's most definitely not cast iron, just a stamped steel pan, not too different from a round cake pan. The same sort of pans (not beautifully blackened though) were used at the Jake's pizza I slung while aged merely 15 (didn't last more than 3 weeks, and I can't even stand the smell of their pizza anymore).

There is still a third animal in the deep dish pizza phylogeny, and it is highly varied. Neither cornmeal crunch nor 3-inch stuffed, a mere "thick crust" pizza, yes sometimes called 'Sicilian' can be purchased at a plurality of pie purveyors. I don't know if this is commonly found elsewhere in the US besides the NY Sicilian style. I ate numerous of these from Dave's Italian Kitchen while at NU in the 80's. I can't say it had many positive gustatory attributes over the thin offered by Dave's, but at the time, $1 extra yielded about twice the total volume of pizza, and still several dollars less than Giordano's or Carmen's, the available stuffed varieties that would deliver on campus.

Regarding the pans - They come in shiny and new. It doesn't last long. In many regards, the pan is one of the most important parts of the pizza equation. I can tell a difference between the pizzas at our three locations (10 years vs. 4 years vs. 3 months in age). The ten year old pans give a little more char and crispier crust in my opinion. The greatest thing is that if they're cared for (dried after washing, oiled while sitting overnight) they'll last forever. In my four years I've never had to order pizza pans (except when we open a place).

pizano345 wrote:Regarding the pans - They come in shiny and new. It doesn't last long. In many regards, the pan is one of the most important parts of the pizza equation. I can tell a difference between the pizzas at our three locations (10 years vs. 4 years vs. 3 months in age). The ten year old pans give a little more char and crispier crust in my opinion.

So, the older a pizzeria, the better the pizza!

Dan Zemans has written the definitive taxonomy of Chicago pizza types, or if it isn't it'll do till that comes along, at Serious Eats.

Some color commentary by me. Lots of great recommendations by him.

Mike G wrote:Dan Zemans has written the definitive taxonomy of Chicago pizza types, or if it isn't it'll do till that comes along, at Serious Eats.

Some color commentary by me. Lots of great recommendations by him.

I'm rather surprised he did not include Edwardo's in the Stuffed category. They're not as big of a chain as they once were, but neither is Giordano's. I've always considered them the exemplar on stuffed.

In my mind, Burt's is not significantly different from the Chicago Deep Dish style to warrant a different category. If you consider a line from Malnati's to Gulliver's to Burt's, it seems less far fetched to include them together: crunch-oriented crust, tomato-topped, emphasis on toppings. I have not had Pequod's, but I understand it is also in the same vein.

Mike G wrote:Dan Zemans has written the definitive taxonomy of Chicago pizza types, or if it isn't it'll do till that comes along,

That's a terrific summary of a very tricky subject!

Zemans has made a significant contribution to understanding the pizza landscape in Chicago. The distinctions (like between stuffed and deep dish and pan) are very helpful, and it's cool that he gave MikeG and LTH recognition for adding to the general pool of intelligence on this topic.

JoelF wrote:I'm rather surprised he did not include Edwardo's in the Stuffed category. They're not as big of a chain as they once were, but neither is Giordano's. I've always considered them the exemplar on stuffed.

I agree completely.

However, for entirely personal reasons (completely unrelated to the restaurants or their food), I can no longer eat pizzas from my favorite Edwardo's. I am therefore very interested in alternatives for stuffed pizza.

We've had some very good pizzas from Mugs, a small carryout/delivery-only chain that offers both stuffed and flat versions. I like their sauce a lot, but their crust is too heavy. Mugs, which has locations in Des Plaines, Arlington Heights and on the Northwest Side of Chicago, does have the advantage of taking orders until 2:45 a.m.

LAZ wrote:We've had some very good pizzas from Mugs, a small carryout/delivery-only chain that offers both stuffed and flat versions. I like their sauce a lot, but their crust is too heavy. Mugs, which has locations in Des Plaines, Arlington Heights and on the Northwest Side of Chicago, does have the advantage of taking orders until 2:45 a.m.

Since I live in the same general neighborhood as you, it's no surprise that Mug's is also our go-to for thin. I'm not as fond of their stuffed version, as their sauce is a salty variety strongly tasting of tomato paste, and it overpowers the pie. The thin, though is outstanding.