Mention George Howell's name to any Bostonian (or as in my case former Bostonian) who loves coffee and you will find a still-deep grudge against what Starbucks did out there. ( http://www.blackbearcoffee.com/Starbuck ... _about.htm ) I've gone on the record as saying my favorite cup is bottomless for a buck at a diner, but coffee is like any other drink: you have your everyday favorite and your preferences for special occasions, and Howell's old chain out in Boston was a great education.

cooksillustrated.com and its sister site americastestkitchen.com have tasting notes on coffee with some comments from Howell.

For Amata,

Elvis WAS right there with Nixon, it is documented in a wonderful book titled "Alone with the President" and the Elvis/Nixon sequence has the proofs as well as the photo for publication.

Other favorites from the book, I like to think of them as a series of shots with LBJ, at what I imagine to be some pseudo-celebrity gathering. There's Bob Hope and Jerry Colonna (who IS Jerry Colonna?) demonstrating soft-shoe technique for LBJ. And LBJ, Ike, and Bob Hope looking on as the 1964 Easter Seal twins stand on their head, with their crutches laid benignly on the Oval Office carpet.

For the coffee buffs:

I am myself allergic, although I can tolerate a cup now and then, but Himself needs his fix. We just returned from a road trip to Denver, almost entirely done NOT on the Interstate Highway System, and I was happy (although not as happy as Himself, who's not a Starbucks fan by any means) to see independent coffee outlets in parts of the country Starbucks wouldn't even consider touching. And not just single outlets, but multiple outlets, competition keeping everybody on their toes. Yankton, SD, Scottsbluff, NE, Oakley, KS, other towns I can't even remember.

My favorites are the places at the edge of the mall, I think they used to be one-hour photo places but are now coffee outposts. You can do drive-thru or you can walk in, although there's not much seating:-)

The added bonus is they don't throw in the snotty attitude if you don't speak Starbucks and will happily make your coffee anyway you like. Himself likes a double espresso cut with an equal amount of hot water, which is apparently different from an Americano.

When Charbucks moved into my Roscoe Village neighborhood I deliberately chose to not walk through the doors the first two years it was there. Then, damn it, it just is so convenient.

Don't lose sight of the two independent coffee houses in the neighborhood, which both serve Intelligentsia: La Bodega on Addison/Wolcott and MoJoe's, west of Starbucks on Roscoe. My only gripe with them vis a vis Starbucks is the hours they keep are strange, or more accurately late. I think that La Bodega doesn't open until 8:00 am.

annieb wrote:(who IS Jerry Colonna?)

Jerry Colonna's relationship to Bob Hope was something like that of Larry Bud Melman to David Letterman, initially a wacky character everyone loved, eventually proof of why you have a longer career not being so wacky that you're irritating.

Food Nut wrote:They are focused on the coffee and it's good. Whereas, Starbucks is selling board games.

Actually, what I think Starbucks is increasingly in the business of selling is dessert. Many of those whipped creamy Frappucino things have no coffee basis at all, they're just fruity creamy sugary things. But you can convince yourself that you're not sucking down 1800 calories, in a way that you couldn't if you walked into DQ and ordered a Blizzard. The secret of success in America, increasingly, is serving something scrumptiously fatty and sugary while pretending you're doing nothing of the sort.

Mike G wrote:I had reached the point (or the age) where there was nothing squarer than trying to be hip, and nothing hipper than being into something that would absolutely stupefy a 20something."

Having been, nearly all my life, into things that stupefy most people, I can tell you that it takes more than that to achieve hipness. Nobody can be hip alone.

MAG wrote:

When Charbucks moved into my Roscoe Village neighborhood I deliberately chose to not walk through the doors the first two years it was there. Then, damn it, it just is so convenient.

Don't lose sight of the two independent coffee houses in the neighborhood, which both serve Intelligentsia: La Bodega on Addison/Wolcott and MoJoe's, west of Starbucks on Roscoe. My only gripe with them vis a vis Starbucks is the hours they keep are strange, or more accurately late. I think that La Bodega doesn't open until 8:00 am.

That timing thing has always been my gripe with the independents in my neighborhood. Honestly, I would love to patronize No Friction, Hotti Biscotti and Click on Cafe, but I keep hours that have me headed toward work when most of these places' hipster clientele is just rolling in from the clubs and headed toward bed. I suppose if they can get enough business opening at 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning (and not even consistently at that), then more power to them. (Another of my chief gripes with these places is their seeming inability to even stick to their own posted hours.) But Starbucks is, whatever else you might have to say about it, always open at 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning, as advertised.

(Final note: Another independent here in Logan Square, Coffee Talk, actually does or did open at a reasonable morning hour, and consistently so, although I just found out on Saturday that they've pushed back the opening by one hour for weekends, which ruins my Saturday!)

Nobody can be hip alone.

I was going to suggest Zaphod Beeblebrox as a counterexample, but then he did have two heads, so technically...

(Is there anything less hip than citing an intimate knowledge of the work I just referenced?)

Mike G wrote:I was going to suggest Zaphod Beeblebrox as a counterexample, but then he did have two heads, so technically...

(Is there anything less hip than citing an intimate knowledge of the work I just referenced?)

Adam's work is timeless and ageless, can something that's timeless truly ever be hip? The entire notion of hip tends to include a virtual expiration date, if only to make room for something newer, cooler and better.

Mike G wrote:

Nobody can be hip alone.

I was going to suggest Zaphod Beeblebrox as a counterexample, but then he did have two heads, so technically...

(Is there anything less hip than citing an intimate knowledge of the work I just referenced?)

Citing from the radio plays instead of the books? (and admitting to having performed them, seen the TV shows, and owning a signed copy of all of the books.

Shannon

MAG wrote:

When Charbucks moved into my Roscoe Village neighborhood I deliberately chose to not walk through the doors the first two years it was there. Then, damn it, it just is so convenient.

Don't lose sight of the two independent coffee houses in the neighborhood, which both serve Intelligentsia: La Bodega on Addison/Wolcott and MoJoe's, west of Starbucks on Roscoe. My only gripe with them vis a vis Starbucks is the hours they keep are strange, or more accurately late. I think that La Bodega doesn't open until 8:00 am.

The sad thing I suppose, which perhaps has been lost in this thread, is that Starbuck's coffee nearly always is so much better than neighborhood coffee shops. Sure, something like Caffe Italia on Harlem or Masa on North in Elmwood Park serve nearly a destination cup of espresso, most others cannot even make a passble cup.

Rob

Agreed. All I ask for from any coffee purveyor is (a) a strong, black medium-sized coffee (or, if I'm in a holiday mood, a caffe americano) (b) that's not served in a styrofoam cup. By these standards, Starbucks does okay. I love Peet's, but they have so few outlets (even in their native Bay Area, it's far easier to find a Starbucks). I've often tried Intellegencia at various locations and confess (for reasons I cannot fathom) that I find the taste too harsh. Most independents make a pale brew (and I've found this to be the case no matter where I travel).

Lately, I've taken to picking up a morning cup at Cafe Baci at LaSalle and Jackson (which I recently bashed in another thread elsewhere for their food) -- no line, I like the crew that works there, and the coffee is mellow.

Mike G wrote:I was going to suggest Zaphod Beeblebrox as a counterexample, but then he did have two heads, so technically...

(Is there anything less hip than citing an intimate knowledge of the work I just referenced?)

Admitting that you still own more than one copy of Thomas F. Monteleone's "Seeds of Change" and can quote from it.... "The bazooka rang like a tuning fork." Just thinking about it gives me a terrible pain in all the diodes down my left side...and I've forgotten my towel.

Excuse me. I'm straying from the topic. Let us return to the discussion of Starbuck's, a chain which serves a liquid that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike good coffee.

LAZ wrote:Let us return to the discussion of Starbuck's, a chain which serves a liquid that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike good coffee.

I'm working on a nutrition program for McDonald's, so I've been reviewing nutritional info from a number of quick service restaurants. Here's a fun fact from a pamphlet I picked up entitled You, Starbucks, and Nutrition: a Starbuck's Venti Caramel Macchiato Breve contains 710 calories (!). That is one high-energy cup of joe.

David "I'm Loving It, Really, I Am" Hammond

Dear Starbucks,



This is not a "grande."

This is a tall which has been placed in a grande cup, and I have been charged for a grande.

Were I to replace the missing volume with an equivalent amount of, say, milk, I would not consider myself ripped off. But were I the sort of person to do that, I would have ordered a strawberry vanilla soy milk mocha mint Best of Norah Jones Ethos Water Fair Trade Crappucinnachingo, and that is the sort of person I am not.

Is there any other business in America which routinely shorts its customers for a good so overpriced in the first place? Does McDonald's routinely pass off 3/16th pounders as the full quarter? Does Cingular say that I reached my 300 minutes after an hour and a half? Does Home Depot sell me hammers with a head made of a steel exterior and a gooey nougat interior?

Under the circumstances, I suggest a better name than Grande. How about Skimpé?

Sincerely,
Mike G

Too bad, Mike G, but I think just walking into a Starbucks automatically qualifies one as a mark anyway.

Cool is eternal, hip is the moment

Making fun of Starbucks (except the items any lthers happen to drink of course) and in general being a food snob = hip on lth

Talking about food and drink without snobbish attitudes and put-downs of people doing what they want with their own money and own coffees and own food decisions = cool

If only lth could be cooler . . .

Deflator_Mouse wrote:

Cool is eternal, hip is the moment

Making fun of Starbucks (except the items any lthers happen to drink of course) and in general being a food snob = hip on lth

Talking about food and drink without snobbish attitudes and put-downs of people doing what they want with their own money and own coffees and own food decisions = cool

If only lth could be cooler . . .

That a way, ignore thousands of knowledgeable posts and otherwise unavailable bits of food advice and reviews on lth...

Sometimes put-downs are necessary, thankfully.

On the contrary, the knowledgeable and otherwise unavailable bits of food advice and reviews are why I visit the site. And why I signed up when it was first started.

The re-occurring food snobbery (thankfully not as common in posts as the good stuff) is why I don't visit and participate more often.

I think putting someone down for eating at Olive Garden, say, or drinking whatever they want from Starbucks is never necessary.

I'm not immune to food snobbery. But I try not to fall prey to it, and if pointed out try to rectify my behavior.

All I'm saying is I would rather lth foster an environment that gently pushes people away from food snobbery rather than one that reinforces and even somewhat encourages it.

Note that I said "If only lth could be cooler," not "If only lth could be cool."

I think putting someone down for eating at Olive Garden is absolutely necessary...it's the only way they'll learn

Seriously though, Deflator_Mouse, things can get pretty tongue in cheek on this board. If you don't take things too seriously, the snob factor is actually pretty low.

hattyn wrote:I heard somewhere that Judy's in Evanston supplied their lemon knots.The last time I drove by Judy's it looked like they were out of business.

Judy's is now a promising-looking Trattoria DOC - but I'd heard rumors that their demise was due in part to Starbucks ordering the cookies and then suddenly finding another supplier

My son's preschool is near a Starbucks and an independant on Main in Evanston. As a former employee of Starbucks, I had a horror of them - but let's face it, the independant (whose name I forget) is drafty, their seating uncomfortable, and sometimes their service is garden-variety rude. I wish things were different.

I make my own coffee.

Mhays wrote:

hattyn wrote:I heard somewhere that Judy's in Evanston supplied their lemon knots.The last time I drove by Judy's it looked like they were out of business.

Judy's is now a promising-looking Trattoria DOC - but I'd heard rumors that their demise was due in part to Starbucks ordering the cookies and then suddenly finding another supplier.

Yes and no. To fulfill the contract, Judy's over-extended. Starbucks then bought out their contract, perfectly legal - if not nice - and Judy's had committed to warehouses and supplies and so on that they no longer had ther business to pay.

Mhays wrote:My son's preschool is near a Starbucks and an independant on Main in Evanston. As a former employee of Starbucks, I had a horror of them - but let's face it, the independant (whose name I forget) is drafty, their seating uncomfortable, and sometimes their service is garden-variety rude. I wish things were different.

I make my own coffee.

We used to live right around the corner, and yes, the independant owners are rude and both the coffee and the service are bad (as are the muffins).

jesteinf wrote:I think putting someone down for eating at Olive Garden is absolutely necessary...it's the only way they'll learn

Seriously though, Deflator_Mouse, things can get pretty tongue in cheek on this board. If you don't take things too seriously, the snob factor is actually pretty low.

I agree.

However, I can see how a new-comer may think otherwise.

That said, it's still a great place!

going back to the original premise of a dean martin cycle - this theory of a sort of cylce of coolness has been around a long time, especially in regards to neighborhood gentrification - the hip move in, create their own amenities, leading to folks marginally less cool wanting to achieve that those same amenities or 'hipness' thus the amenities and rents become tailored to this second (or third or fourth) wave of residents, eventually killing what they thought was attractive about the location in the first place (and pricing out those that created those amenities).

Now as to when the tipping point for starbucks was, well IMO it was probably closer to the Tipping Point where it started spreading like wildfire (almost by "coolness" definition).

anyway, an interesting counterargument (from 4 years ago) can be found here by thi on CH (always one of the most enjoyable writers there)

Thanks, I always enjoy hearing that my point was unoriginal!

(Actually, I suppose it was form, not substance, that I was mainly going for in that post so long ago. But then that's all part of the Tarantinoization of LTHForum.)

The word "snobbery" is being volleyed like Wimbledon. I just think that in the continuing corporatization of America, the masses who patronize a Starbucks seem like so many sheep to me, ironically while acting the snob the whole way. It's just part of modern marketing's awareness that people want to belong, like wearing a Members Only jacket. Through Starbucks' indoctrination (we had to have people from Seattle tell us how to drink coffee?), people spend way more for coffee that is no better than many other shops and get with it attitude from frustrated writers who deign to serve you. Want a REGULAR BLACK COFFEE and the not the 1,000-calorie whipped delight? Get it the hell yourself out of the pump thermos behind you. That was my one and only experience at S-Bucks (left without the coffee). And it's even more head-hammering as they pump the coffee exhaust outside.

My lament is for the local guy who can't compete with three Starbucks cells within a 1.5-block radius.

I'll cut Olive Garden a bit of a break because in some suburbs and in small-town America, it is a fairly decent alternative, perhaps an only choice.

We're lucky in Chicago. Even as there seems to be a million Starbucks in the city, there are still alternatives, mom-and-pop shops that I'd rather patronize. If I can't find a Greek with coffee or a local diner, I'll go without.

It's not snobbery; I just don't go for the Starbucks M-O. And yes, there are local consequences when people flock to these highly-branded monoliths.

So you won't see me there.

I'm not an old man, but let me give ya'll some history, personal and Starbucks.

I grew up in a place where espresso (cafecito) was plentiful, good, and ten cents a shot. When I came to the UofC for higher education in the early '90's, I arrived in Hyde Park the same year as the supposedly second Starbucks outside of the Northwest. (The first being the Loop Starbucks on Randolph at Wacker/the river. People are sometimes surprised to learn that Chicago was the laboratory, the launch pad for the globalization of Starbucks. That explains Gold Coast Blend. We had 'em way before NYC, LA, and even, perhaps especially, SF).

I have to say, I was blown away by the price of the espresso. Then again, the espresso was, and sadly still is, better than that which is made by tragically hip and even more tragically unskilled but independent espresso makers in college towns and urban centers around the country. Burned, maybe, but closer to correctly pulled than most of the world before Starbucks. Like a junkie, I was happy to pay.

Starbucks quality has suffered, of course, as the ironic, overqualified (she thinks), weltschmertzy barista is largely replaced by stock McDonald's counter help. But, by god, there was a time when I was travelling and I wished like hell they had a Starbucks in Houston, or Manhattan or London for that matter.

But that was then. Everything above was probably true for Wendy's at one time, too.

Now, downtown, I go to another corporate monster for espresso, Lavazza. But it's Italian, so it's ok.

JeffB wrote:People are sometimes surprised to learn that Chicago was the laboratory, the launch pad for the globalization of Starbucks.

Jeff,

When I walked past the original Starbucks in Seattle's Pike Place Market I was tempted to stop and scream WTF have you done!! but thought better of it or, should I say, my wife thought better of it for me.

What's the difference between a Starbucks latte and cafe con leche at Cafeteria Marianao?

$3.00

Enjoy,
Gary

Cafeteria Marianao
2246 N. Milwaukee Ave.
Chicago, IL 60647

Mike G wrote:But then that's all part of the Tarantinoization of LTHForum.

Correct-a-mundo. We're all gonna be like three little Fonzies - and what was Fonzie? Cool.

Trying real hard to be a shepherd.

Deflator_Mouse wrote:The re-occurring food snobbery (thankfully not as common in posts as the good stuff) is why I don't visit and participate more often.

I think putting someone down for eating at Olive Garden, say, or drinking whatever they want from Starbucks is never necessary.

I'm not immune to food snobbery. But I try not to fall prey to it, and if pointed out try to rectify my behavior.

All I'm saying is I would rather lth foster an environment that gently pushes people away from food snobbery rather than one that reinforces and even somewhat encourages it.

Note that I said "If only lth could be cooler," not "If only lth could be cool."

All right. I'll take the bait. The whole concept of "snobbery" sticks in my craw. I have, on occasion, been accused of being a food-snob, a music-snob, a literature-snob, etc. I suspect that a lot of those who post on this forum or on any forum devoted to any enthusiasm have the same experience. Not long ago a "snob" was one who occupied the upper reaches of the socio economic ladder -- i.e. a member of the ruling-class. Now, it seems to me, that the accusation of snobbery is most often leveled at those who reject any element of bland or silly or just plain bad mass culture that the corporate ruling class insists we must like. So if we reject or, worse, mock, Starbucks, the Olive Garden, P.F. Chang's, Outback Steakhouse, Toby Keith, Christina Aguilera (and don't tell me she has a really good voice), Kenny G., Danielle Steele, Dan Brown, John Grisham, almost all Hollywood movies, Sex in the City and prefer Tacos del Pacifico (RIP), Casa de Samuel, Skylark, LTH, the Rainbo, Chet Baker, Buck Owens, Ted Leo, Lambchop, Alice Munroe, Raymond Carver, Michel Houllebeq (ok kind of a guilty pleasure), Ha Jin, Wang Kar Wei's movies OR WHATEVER we are snobs. Nonsense. It means we have taste. Not good necessarily good taste, but our own taste. One's taste does not make one a more or less valuable person but it does go some distance (but not the whole way) in making one an individual.

It seems to me that there is a strong current in the culture that frowns on this. We are constantly being sold the bland, banal and mediocre. That is fine as far it goes. The culture, however, seems to want us to accept this without question. If we don't we are not of the people. We are not nice. We are "snobs." I cannot accept this.

There are too many Starbucks. Starbucks is too expensive. Starbucks contributes to the standardization of our culture. Starbucks has stupid names for their drinks (small is small, medium is medium, large is large). Starbucks deserves ridicule -- as do those who blindly refer to a small coffee as "grande" or whatever. Starbucks is silly; they are silly; we all are silly sometimes. Silliness should be mocked. That is not snobbery. That is just not giving in to the silliness, the blandness, the medicority, the banality. That is, dare I say, being alert, being aware, being a human as opposed to a mere consumer.

(By the way, I buy Starbucks at the grocery store. I really think it is the best coffee you can get in a supermarket.)