There's some discussion of those distinctions here.

Also here.

I prefer to think of the kinds as Rocco e i suoi fratelli, myself.

Hey guys, don't like Mariani's pizza list? Try this one instead, just linked to (with puzzlement) on Chowhound General Topics:

http://cityguide.aol.com/sanfrancisco/b ... izzaplaces

It, um, does include a Chicago spot...

Hey, at least 4 of the 13 are Chicago-style, including #1. The unwashed masses love deep dish. Democracy in action. I enjoy the fact that a Chicago style place in CA tops the list, while the AZ outpost of a NYC place ranks high but the NYC original is nowhere to be found. This in the context of a sidebar that says you have to go local to get good pizza. And the dumb SEC/ACC college town chain Mellow Mushroom is on the list. HRI might make a list of the 15 best frozen pizzas. . . .

JeffB wrote:Hey, at least 4 of the 13 are Chicago-style, including #1. The unwashed masses love deep dish.

Jeff,

Guess my proclaimed appreciation of deep dish at the original Uno's makes me unwashed masses. Oh well, I've been called worse*.

Enjoy,
Gary

*Just within the last couple of hours.

A man of the people! Hidden in my snide comments was the idea that, despite problems with particular places on the list, the AOL poll shows that the Chicago style of Italianate savory pie has broad national appeal in this country. Given that phenomenon, one might argue that it is worthwhile, possibly even important, to consider who does it best, with the most attention to ingredient and technique. In that regard, I think that the Pequod's/Burts discussion is interesting. I also tend to agree with the Dish folks about Pizano's, which I've vocally enjoyed since the now-shuttered Wrigleyville branch opened. Pizano's pizza is to Neapolitan pizza as cheesecake is to a souffle. Maybe that's a reason not to call it pizza, but it's not a reason not to like it.

Pequods vs Burts

These guys go toe to toe in the pan pizza category. I may be mistaken, it seems I don't seem to hear as much about pan pizza unless it is thrown into the deep dish pizza catagory. Burts and Pequods doesn't have the ultra heavy cheese layer I associate with deep dish. These are both observations and a question as well: whether pan is considered a deep dish or subset of deep dish or a category all by itself.

Regards,

Cathy2 wrote:Pequods vs Burts

These guys go toe to toe in the pan pizza category. I may be mistaken, it seems I don't seem to hear as much about pan pizza unless it is thrown into the deep dish pizza catagory. Burts and Pequods doesn't have the ultra heavy cheese layer I associate with deep dish. These are both observations and a question as well: whether pan is considered a deep dish or subset of deep dish or a category all by itself.

Regards,

I think the pizzarias of Morton Grove are a style unto themselves, neither traditional pan nor deep dish. One of the most distinguishing features of this particular style is the caramelized cheese rim. Another is the restrained use of toppings compared to places like Uno's/Due's or Malnati's.

stevez wrote:

That stuff aside, the almost complete identity of 'pizza' with cheese and tomatoes in this country is really from the Old World perspective quite off the mark.

There is much about this country that is "off the mark" from a European perspective. That's what makes America great/different. That doesn't necessarily amount to a bad thing.

Steve,

I'll go along with that but then with some important additions and qualifications that are implied with your own use of 'not necessarily'. Not necessarily bad but in terms of some cultural fields -- especially the culinary -- one must use, alongside 'different' and in appropriate instances 'great' or 'superior', also terms such as 'oversimplified, excessively processed, misguided', etc. etc.

To my mind, there is an exact parallel between what is done with pizza in the States and what is done with pasta: Here the general trend, the popular inclination, is to pay little attention to the basis of the dish -- the crust for pizza, the pasta itself for pasta dishes -- and to focus on large amounts of sauce, meat and, of course, cheese, with all of these more often than not of rather dubious quality. In both cases, there has been to my mind a fundamental miscomprehension and generally speaking artless reinterpretation of the borrowed items.

There are great things to eat in the United States, great restaurants, great chefs, to be sure, but when we're talking about cookery, who in their right mind is going to argue that the U.S. has a culinary tradition that rivals in richness and sophistication those of many of the European (and Asian) countries? Indeed, much of what has raised the level of cookery in this country over the last 25 years from its abysmal post-World War II state involves the 'discovery' of real European (and Asian) regional cuisines and the invention of a style of New American cuisine that pretty much applies traditional European (and Asian) approaches to food production and innovative cooking to American conditions.(1)

I hope no one feels inclined to accuse me of 'bashing' America here (again) but, as I'm sure you would agree, ignoring reality in order to boost one's own city or country (or, for that matter, some other city or country that one fancies) is silly. And that's not to say a Chicagoan believing some Chicago item to be the best is necessarily local boosterism either -- if s/he has good reasons based on adequate experience and knowledge, that's legitimate.

(1) And one should add here the 'rediscovery' of the long underappreciated, suppressed and in some cases sorely diminished regional cuisines of these very United States.

*

Maybe I'm missing something but Chez Panisse pizzas, dressed with the things listed above or with prosciutto and bitter greens or nettles and pecorino or sardines and capers, they all seem very 'Mediterranean' and not at all 'sprouty' or goofy in the CPK way. These are precisely the sorts of things that people cooking in the Old World traditions dress their disks of flat bread with.

***

hungryrabbi wrote:

That stuff aside, the almost complete identity of 'pizza' with cheese and tomatoes in this country is really from the Old World perspective quite off the mark. This leads us to the second point...
[to be posted anon, perhaps]

Which, if I may be a bit of a gun-jumper, has to do with the three styles of Chicago pizza, perhaps? (stuffed notwithstanding.) Might this be the addition of bakery pizza to cracker-thin and deep dish, the style of pan pizza a la D'Amato's, Sicilia, Scafuri, Ferrara, Masi's ISB, etc...?? I thought so.

Il Buono, Il Brutto, Il Cattivo, indeed....

Maestro Rebone,

No, non ha ragione; non avevo l'intenzione di parlare della pizza dei panifici. Ma questo a me piace molto: Il Buono: pizza bread; Il Brutto stuffed deep-dish; Il Cattivo: cracker-crust.

È anche molto Indo-Europeo.

Ponendomi a Sua disposizione, rimango...
Antonio de' Tresarti

Years ago Emo Phillips had a great bit-- the sort of more cerebral material he often snuck in between the more obvious weirdo humor-- about two guys who meet each other in the middle of a bridge. "Are you a Christian?" "Yes, I'm a Christian..." "So am I. Are you a Protestant?" "Yes, I'm a Protestant..." "So am I!" And so on, down a scale of ever-increasing specificity ("Synod of 1869?" "Yes, Synod of 1869..." "So am I!") until they reach one point-- "Substantialist?" "No, Immanentist"-- and the first guy shrieks "INFIDEL!" and hurls the other guy off the bridge.

So of course, for most of the way I couldn't agree with Tony more. Lotta pizza crap out there (though apparently one dare not say that crap also exists in New York, no matter how one prefaces it with disclaimers of not having tried YOUR favorite place). But then I had crappy Italian food in Florence, too, which is surely proof that if they can make it there, they can make it anywhere. (Note, I did NOT just say I never had good Italian food in Italy, far from it. I said once, I ate at a place-- reputable-guidebook-recommended no less-- so bad that when other people walked up to the menu board, I caught their eye and shook my head No. I was damned, but they still might be saved.) The general point, that American food has gotten better in a strong correlation to the degree to which it has returned to less processed, more natural, more traditionalist ways of doing things rooted in European and Asian cooking, is undoubtedly true. The correlation isn't 100%, there are surely other factors at play in our multifaceted restaurant and culinary scene, but let's give that general trend half the credit just for starters, and we can always adjust upward later.

Where I start evaluating centers of gravity and throwweights is when, by castles of impeccable logic, we decide-- and sensible JeffB, I'm shocked to say, even gives in!-- that something that has been called pizza in Chicago for 60 years is not pizza after all! Well, there are people who insist that they do not have to pay income tax because legally they are sovereigns predating the Constitution, and there is a fellow named Earl Pulvermacher who believes that he is the duly elected Pope (and he has the photos of the ceremony at his ranch house in Montana to prove it), and certainly the world is more colorful for all of them, but confronted with the Pope of Montana and expected to kneel before him, I would be forced to say, "Here I stand, I can do no other." My catechism of pizza is simple (and, I am happy to say, contains substantially fewer than 95 theses):

1. Pizza is the appropriate term for anything people generally call pizza.

2. Pizza is about the crust, except when it's about the cheese, the sausage, the crushed tomatoes on top, the caramelized stuff around the edges, or whatever else makes it good. The fact is, the idea of baked bread matter with cheese on top is so basic and delightful that it encourages all manner of experimentation, stressing different elements and forms.

3. The word "pizza" does not solely indicate Neapolitan-style pizza. There is a term for that kind of pizza which is admirable in its specificity and clarity. That term is "Neapolitan-style pizza."

4. America is full of tinkerers. One of the things they tinker with is pizza. Most of the time they probably do make it worse. But some of their variations show remarkable invention, vigor and charm. The American tinkerer with musical forms Duke Ellington said of music, "if it sounds good, it is good." Same goes for taste.

5. Spacca Napoli makes a kickass Neapolitan-style pizza. There should be more like them!

Now I take my small band of the believers to the hills, to escape the wrath of the Inquisition-- hopefully somebody will deliver out here....

Mods,

If it is at all possible, would you please remove my name from the top of this thread?



E.M.

Erik M. wrote:Mods,

If it is at all possible, would you please remove my name from the top of this thread?



E.M.

I can't stop laughing. You really got me there.

If it is at all possible, would you please remove my name from the top of this thread?

Not till it reaches a thousand posts. Which should be about five more days.

I know I'm not adding anything here but I just needed to thank MikeG for his post above (from the evening of the 20th). It's easily the most enjoyable thing I've read for a long time!

Thank you, Bridgestone, your check is in the mail.

I wonder what it is about both pizza and BBQ that inspire such regional passions, far deeper than any other food categories. This thread is almost identical to the skirmishes, battles, and civil wars that regularly erupt on the BBQ lists among those of different regions and culinary persuasions. Except with pizza we don't have the chance to pounce on those who spell it differently than we do (BBQ, bar-b-q, barbecue, barbeque...) or use as it as the wrong part of speech (noun, verb or adjective).


Bill/SFNM

Mike G wrote:So of course, for most of the way I couldn't agree with Tony more. Lotta pizza crap out there (though apparently one dare not say that crap also exists in New York, no matter how one prefaces it with disclaimers of not having tried YOUR favorite place).

The juxtaposition of my name with the remark about New York pizza implies that the impossibility of encountering bad pizza in that city is an idea that I have advanced or at least support. That's just plain 'bull'.*

I'm sure there are some people who are familiar with my writing here who recognise that I don't make such stupid claims and that my writing is typically characterised by a good command of the relevant facts and measured reasoning. Unfortunately, others and especially those new to the site might just assume I am a simplistic partisan, given the majordomo's comments and his apparent distaste for the points I argue. Perhaps that's how you want to (mis-)characterise me, as you broadly dismiss my opinions as delusional madness, Mike, but I neither fancy myself exempt from income tax nor an elected pope. More to the point, there's a very large body of texts I've written for this site that demonstrate that my views on cookery are neither simplistic, delusional nor unreasoningly partisan. What you liken to the expression of madness is in fact informed discussion of the topic at hand that attempts to go beyond the inevitable partisan proclivities and simple assertions about tastiness.

The discussion, even if spirited, should remain respectful and it seems rather odd that you have chosen to try to ridicule me for doing precisely what one is supposed to do on LTHForum, namely, discuss culinary matters seriously and respectfully.

I would prefer that the discussion always be lively, the tone in disagreements respectful, and the atmosphere of the site consistently civil, if not cordial.

Antonius


* In fact, I've said the opposite a number of times, including at least twice in unambiguous terms in the thread that followed Pigmon's outstanding post on New York old-school pizzerie. Note too that I have also not claimed that pizza of any and all styles made in Chicago is poorly made or not tasty. Simplistic and purely partisan claims are not interesting to me.
If one wants to see the degree to which relevant discussion has been forgotten or ignored, please read this thread in its entirety:
http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=40190#40190

Antonius wrote:

Mike G wrote:
So I guess my question is, you have artisanal ways of making a thin crust in the European manner, and you have industrial ways of cranking out mediocre pies, and is there a New York pizza which is readily distinguishable from the first, and yet not mediocre or worse like the second? Chicago thin crust, it seems to me, is its own thing quite different from a Euro-pie, and often excellent. I'm not so sure New York has its own style that's really good-- as opposed to having some really good pizza makers in the European tradition.

As I said above, there is such a class of places, though it admittedly grows ever smaller. Between the really serious old school places which are a direct continuation of Neapolitan tradition or a resurrection thereof (as documented by Pigmon above) and the shitty-to-mediocre industrial or quasi-industrial slice joints, there are places that turn out pizzas that in general terms resemble one another and are more similar to what Pigmon documents than to say, the industrial or Chicago or general American sort of thing. One finds them in pizza parlours and small restaurants in places like Trenton and Hackensack and Brooklyn and the Bronx and the Upper West Side of Manhattan and out on the Island. These are pizzas that are not made with imported flour and mozzarella di bufala, but they are made with real bread dough put together in-house, with canned tomatoes rather than canned tomato sauce, etc. etc. Not 'artisanal' stuff, at least not in the more chi-chi sense, but the work of craftsmen. Analogous to what the best of the Chicago style makers turn out, but actually 'pizza', i.e., bread with a little stuff on it. Good pizza.

Maybe Patsy's, discussed above, is more in that category than in the top-notch artisanal style, maybe not -- I ain't been.

Hungryrabbi should chime in here; he knows what I mean and can probably give lots of specific examples. Most of the places I used to go to are likely long gone.

But note too that a number of the places that serve pizza that is very Neapolitan in style are not yuppy concept operations. They've been doing this stuff since the (great-)grandparents come over from Southern Italy last century.

Antonius
[emphasis added]

http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=40206#40206

LTH,

This discussion has become more argumentative than constructive. People have begun to take things personally where there may not have been any intention to disparage, harm, or ridicule.

Pizza is well on its way to joining religion and politics as non subjects on LTHForum.

Thread locked.

Enjoy,
Gary for the moderators