Defining Good Chicago Eats: Hot Dogs, Italian Beef, Pizza

I believe that much of taste isn't truly subjective, but has to do with how something fits within a culinary tradition and thus you have to educate your palate. So educate me on some Chicago standards:

What makes a good hot dog? Describe the attributes of a good hot dog and its parts, including the bun and the different sausages.

What makes a good Italian beef? Describe attributes of constituent parts.

What makes a good deep dish pizza? Describe attributes of constituent parts.

Nick,

Nicely arranged list from the least to the most controversial.

I will PM you a resource on the first.

Regards,

A great Chicago hot dog is made from the finest quality domestic beef and sweet brisket trimmings, that's old-world hickory smoked, without a single unnatural additive or undeserved compliment. The Chicago hot dog is available as a skinless or natural casing. The natural casing provides the famous "snap" when you take a bite, offering a bolder taste to the Chicago palate. Most Chicago hot dogs are boiled, while some are steamed or char grilled. A Chicago hot dog is never flat grilled or cooked on a roller grill. The dog is served on a steamed, poppy seed bun. While a basic hot dog is dressed with yellow mustard, fresh chopped onion, and neon green relish, the addition of a kosher pickle spear, two tomato wedges, two sport peppers, and a dash of celery salt complete the Chicago style hot dog "dragged through the garden." Ketchup is not allowed. The Polish is the big brother to the Chicago hot dog. It was born at the turn of the century on Maxwell Street. It's larger, spicier, and greasier, being grilled or deep fried instead of steamed or boiled. Polish condiments can be similar to a hot dog. Traditional trimmings include yellow or Dusseldorf mustard, grilled onions, and sport peppers.

The Chicago Italian beef sandwich is prepared from thinly sliced, roasted round of beef simmered in a spicy gravy flavored with garlic, oregano, paprika, and other "secret" ingredients. It's piled on a hearty, crusty Italian roll that's somewhat crunchy and chewy, yet keeps it's integrity after being drizzled or soaked with the Italian gravy. The sandwich is finished with a garnish of sweet peppers, onions, or hot peppers known as giardiniera, which is a mix of chopped sport peppers, carrot rounds, celery chunks, and capers, being steeped in olive oil and sometimes flavored with red pepper flakes. The sandwich can also be served as an Italian beef combo with the addition of a grilled Italian sausage.

I'm not going to define the Chicago deep dish pizza, since I'm a fan of the cracker thin variety.

CSD

Thanks Chicagostyle. A couple questions for clarification:

How should the dog taste? Most of the all beef dogs around here (Portland, OR) are meaty, slightly sweet, a little dense, and juicy. I've only found one place with a "snap" and they import their hot dogs from the midwest somewhere, I believe.

Besides being more greasy, how does the Polish differ? I had one the other day and couldn't really tell any difference from the same place's standard all beef dog. Allegedly it had a garlic and paprika flavoring.

How important is the steaming of the bun? Most places around here don't steam or do anything else to the bun. I admit a preference for toasting, though no one does that either and I have no idea if that fits in any tradition other than picnicking. I haven't seen a poppy seed bun here yet. Either they have a more substantial (as in, not Wonderbready) texture with a cornmeal topping, I think, or are pretty plain.

Oh, and if anyone wants to define the Chicago dog in contrast to the NY dog, that'd be great, since I'm not expert in NY dogs either.

For the Italian beef, how important is the dipping and how "seasoned" should the beef taste?

I'm asking because I'm in the process of surveying Portland's hot dogs and hot sandwiches and want to be able to discern their qualities better. I'm having a hard time distinguishing the quality of the hot dogs themselves, eg.

I asked about the pizza because I've been thinking about developing a recipe since I can't find any true Chicago style deep dish pizza around here.

extramsg wrote:For the Italian beef, how important is the dipping and how "seasoned" should the beef taste?

Nick,

Have you searched the board for the various Beef-athon threads? The Beef-athons are conducted in a somewhat scientific manner and the threads go into some detail discussing what makes a good beef.

extramsg, maybe I can help here as a transplant from Cincinnati, OH (home of Oscar Meyer)

Previous to moving here, I always hated hot dogs (of course, the OM variety is pretty much it in Cincinnati) I thought they were flabby, tasteless, rubbery, somewhat dry and drowning them in ketchup and mustard didn't do them any good.

Hot dogs here were a revalation: First, the "snap" of the natural casing, which IMHO is a necessity in a true "Chicago Dog" The meat itself is fairly salty, and kind of explodes with the first bite - there's a good amount of fatty juice (I can't think of another way to say that, but it's a good thing.) It has a brighter, sharper flavor, more like actual meat. No particular spice or seasoning is prevalent, but if you really try, you can taste a hint of pepper (sometimes this can linger delightfully on the tongue,) garlic, and something musky like coriander or mace.

Although the accompaniments define a "Chicago-Style" dog, I had one in my hometown with the old rubbery Oscar Meyer sausage. Fixin's aren't enough.

On the discussion of Polish Sausage above, I'm surprised there's no mention of grilled onions, the natural accompaniment. Thin-sliced and nearly caramelized, they're a great foil for the spicier sausage, mustard and peppers (while upping the grease quotient).

I'll take a crack at the Pizzas: There are two Chicago Deep Dish styles, with variants.

A "Pan" pizza, as originated by Ike Sewell at Uno's, with derivatives at Lou Malnati's, Gino's East, and others, has a thick, crunchy crust that often contains cornmeal, cheese placed right on the crust, and chopped tomatoes (or sauce), and toppings at the top. But what truly makes it Chicago is sausage: slighly spicy Italian sausage spread nearly as a full layer on top of the pie by some places. Unlike most of the rest of the country, pepperoni is not king here. You won't get mocked for ordering it, like you would for putting ketchup on your hot dog, but you're missing out.

The other style of Chicago deep dish is "Stuffed", popularized by Edwardo's, Giordano's, Nancy's, Bacino's and others. A thin crust in a deep pan, followed by cheese and toppings (which can be as unusual as spinach souffle, prompting some to call this "macho quiche"), followed by another crust and a sauce (usually smoother than the pan-style chopped tomatoes).

But don't be fooled by "thick-crust" pizza. Most pizza places offer a thick crust or "Sicilian" pizza, which is merely more, bready crust. A good way to feed college students, but not a Chicago-style pizza.

Nick,

If the Polish seemed very similar to the hot dog, things are very, very wrong. A typical "Maxwell St. " Polish is much larger, firmer, with a courser grind, heavier casing, spicier, greasier. It's a brutish thing, the Polish sausage, dominating the sandwich. Not the (almost) primus inter pares that the Chicago hot dog is on the bun.

To be completely fair, there are two types of polish sausages in chicago: the maxwell street polish, which Jeff has very nicely described, and the hot-dog-style polish that is perhaps more common in Chicago. It's a bigger, meatier, juicier hot dog, with some garlic and paprika.

The hot-dog-style polish is also usually dressed like a hot dog, rather than in the mustard-grilled onions-peppers manner Jeff describes.

Gleam,

I honestly can't say that I've had the second style much. Then again, I tend to eat Polish only at the Polish and pork chop type places where I can see them being grilled.

To add to the description above, I'd pint out that the Maxwell St. Polish is typically a segment cut from a larger sausage, and not a discrete link.

Edited to reflect my refreshed recollection of having tasted the mongrel Polish-dog.

Nick,

Steve Z had some very nice photos of hot dogs and polishes which were used in the 2005 LTH calendar (July, I believe).

Check it out here:
http://www.wiviott.com/LTHCalendar05.pdf

Amata

I think you are getting us confused with New Yorkers. Here in Chicago we eat things because they taste good, not because they taste right. Contrary to your assertion, at least as far as Chicagoans are concerned, taste is entirely subjective. There are no set "standards". Everybody has their favorites for different reasons. That is why we can have endless discussions about who has the best pizza, or beef, or polish, or dog. That is why we can have beef-a-thons and taqueria projects. To each person, the standards are different. Sure, some variations are more popular than others, but everybody can find their niche. That is why we have 7000 restaurants in this city, with new ones opening and old ones closing every day.

For instance, I love Gene and Jude's rubber dogs, I have been eating them for decades. They are served with mustard and onions, and that's it. No flourescent relish, no pickle spears, no celery salt, no tomatoes. The dogs have a skin that almost resembles latex. A lot of people really hate them. Yet, every day at lunchtime, the place is packed with people like me, who adore the things. I dislike most thin crust pizza. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate the nuances of a good thin crust. I just prefer a thicker crust. My mother, on the other hand, only likes thin crust. As a child, my favorite sandwich was salami and mustard on rye. My sister's was bologna and ketchup on white-bread. See, I believe taste is purely subjective, not learned or even genetic. In my neighborhood, many Mexicans seem to like the Italian beefs cooked by a Korean lady at the local hotdog stand. Where is the culinary tradition there?

Almost every Chicagoan can tell you which is their currently favorite pizza, hot dog, beef or polish, and why. To us, that is almost as essential as knowing your address or phone number. However, that favorite could be replaced at any time by something we consider better, but for completely different reasons. You will never get 3 Chicagoans to agree on the "best" of anything. In fact, I think most of us are still searching for the best. We can only tell you what has been the best "so far". That is what makes this forum possible.

Jeff -

Well, yes, all of the polish and pork chop places are of the type you describe. But there are a lot more standard hot dog stands in Chicago, and they all have polish sausages on the menu, and they are always of the more-seasoned hot dog variety.

I think the coarse ground variety at Jim's/Maxwell St Express has a lot more character. But it is not, unfortunately, the most prevalent.

I think it's most important to think of the fakey polishes as merely more flavorful, bigger hot dogs. Cook 'em and dress them the same way you would a normal dog, and they're a great stand in.

gleam wrote:Jeff -

Well, yes, all of the polish and pork chop places are of the type you describe. But there are a lot more standard hot dog stands in Chicago, and they all have polish sausages on the menu, and they are always of the more-seasoned hot dog variety.

I think the coarse ground variety at Jim's/Maxwell St Express has a lot more character. But it is not, unfortunately, the most prevalent.

I believe (I think) that it is not so much the polish sausages that differ amongst stands, but the method of cooking.

First, the sausage generally sold at various places in Chicago as a "Polish" sausage is fatter and spicier than a a sausage sold as a hot dog/red hot/frank.

Second, hot dogs are nearly always steamed, with a growing school of "char-dogs" out there. Polish lend themselves to a variety of prepations. The Maxwell version is griddled and served with onions also griddled. This version is served in many places not on Maxwell, say Flukey's. Then, a lot of places that normally steam their hot dog, will fry (yup deep fry) or char-grill their polish. I guess there are places that steam their polish as well, but in my experience, that is not the norm. I think the general feeling is that the bigger, spicier Polish sausage lends itself better to these preparations, a feeling I think accuate.

Oh, it's definitely a completely different type of sausage between, say, Jim's/Maxwell and the rest.

More egregiously, some places call the deep-fried polish-dog a maxwell street polish, for no obvious reason.

Polk and Western serves up hot dogs, polish-dogs, and jumbo/spicy/hot polish-dogs (even bigger, with jalapeno in the mix), all steamed, on S. Rosen (sometimes Gonnella) buns, with the old school mustard/onion/relish topping combo.

A polish at the vienna factory deli is the polish-dog, as is a polish at Hot Doug's, and at Underdogg, and at Nicky's in berwyn, and almost everywhere in between. It's almost always charred or deep fried at these places.

I like both varieties, quite a lot. But they're very different sausages, cooked in very different ways. The biggest distinction, aside from grind, is that the polish-dog is, I believe, all-beef kosher. The polish at Jim's is pork (although they have a beef polish on the menu, also).

This is what you'll get if you order a polish at most hot dog stands:



Of course, does Vienna also supply Jim's with their coarse-ground pork sausage? I think they might...

Vital Information wrote:I believe (I think) that it is not so much the polish sausages that differ amongst stands, but the method of cooking.

Last summer, there was a taste testing of 5 different Polish Sausage vendors at Wieners and Still Champion in Evanston. There were substantial differences between vendor to vendor. The most memorable was the Polish sausage in a natural casing, or synthetic?, where we had problems breaking through the casing into the sausage. Some were heavily spiced, some were near hot dogs, yet they all called themselves Polish sausages.

Now do most stands use the same Polish sausage vendor? I don't really know. I just know there are a number of sausage vendors with quite a range of variety in their offerings all called Polish sausages.

Regards,

Perhaps my post was unclear.

I am not trying to imply that all Polish sausages are the same. It is, in fact interesting, that there is not the same dominance in the Polish sausage catagory as there is in the hot dog catagory (with nearly all vendors selling Vienna). Of course there are gonna be differences amongst sausages in grind, spicing, meat, and fat. But regardless of the brand, most consumers around here can tell what makes the difference in taste profile between Polish sausages and hot dogs.

And regardless, regardless, the vast majority of Polish sausages are not steamed.

Thus, the experience of eating a Polish is different (than eating a hot dog).

That's all I'm saying

Vital Information wrote:
And regardless, regardless, the vast majority of Polish sausages are not steamed.

Just wondering: are steamed Polish more the norm at old/old fashioned joints, like Polk & Western, mentioned above by Gleam? (And P&W serves, I think, very nice versions of both hot dogs and Polish sausages.)

Antonius

Antonius wrote:

Vital Information wrote:
And regardless, regardless, the vast majority of Polish sausages are not steamed.

Just wondering: are steamed Polish more the norm at old/old fashioned joints, like Polk & Western, mentioned above by Gleam? (And P&W serves, I think, very nice versions of both hot dogs and Polish sausages.)

Antonius

Polishes are usually grilled or charred in my experience.

Cathy2 wrote: I just know there are a number of sausage vendors with quite a range of variety in their offerings all called Polish sausages.

A lot of the "maxwell street" places (like Jim's) claim to have their sausages custom made to their own recipes. To me, a big difference is between the round end sausages and the flat end sausages. With the flat end ones, you know they were cut from a larger kielbasa, whereas the round ones are "polish dogs". There is also a difference between the pre-cooked and raw varieties. I think some places initially boil or steam the raw polish, then grill or fry it before serving. I was shocked the first time I saw someone pull a polish out of a boiler and throw it in a deep-fryer, but the guy convinced me it would be good, and it was. Some places even coat the polish with corn oil before serving it, to give it that shiny surface.

It should be noted that vienna beef will also sell you (or its foodservice customers) foot-long polishes that are meant to be halved before serving. As far as I know, though, these are also of the polish-dog variety, just in a different form factor.

FYI: Vienna Beef makes 20 different versions of their foodservice Polish. 19 are all beef and one is a pork/beef blend. 12 of the Polish are skinless and 8 are natural casing. The natural casings are sold as 6", 8", & 12." The 12" versions are 2/1, 2.5/1, & 3/1 and cut in half before cooking. Vienna also makes 3-12" skinless Polish. Two years ago, Vienna introduced a 12" beef/pork Polish. They also produce a Firedog, which is a skinless Polish that was originally seasoned with a blend of cayenne peppers and zesty seasonings. The newer version no longer uses cayenne peppers. The natural casings on hot dogs and Polish that are 5/1-2/1 are much thicker than the casings on the smaller products. The thicker natural casings are and easier to bite and chew when char grilled. My personal preference is a char grilled Polish(well done) with golden brown grilled onions and mustard. I grill the onions in melted butter and add a little Coca Cola for sweetness.

CSD

chicagostyledog wrote: The 12" versions are 2/1, 2.5/1, & 3/1 and cut in half before cooking.

So, Vienna has totally invalidated the belief that cut sausages are better than whole sausages because they are more authentic. I am not the only person who figured if a sausage was cut, then it was probably NOT Vienna. I guess they saw us coming.

Don't count me among those who think that Vienna can't make a good Polish. The smells and cleanliness of Vienna's Damen Ave. factory make me think they can do a good job with whatever recipe they choose to develop. I do prefer a natural casing, cut Polish. Don't really care if Vienna, a city company with local employees, makes it. Might be a plus.

I'll support gleam here. Growing up, in my neighborhood on the Southwest Side, steamed Polish-type dogs were more popular than Maxwell Street style. In fact, I don't think I had a Maxwell Street Polish until I was in college.

When I go to a run-of-the-mill hot dog joint (like one of a zillion Nicky's on the Southwest side), I expect the steamed (and possibly deep-fried) version, not Maxwell Street. At places carrying both, Maxwell Street is specified as such.

It could be a neighborhood difference, I don't know. I generally don't buy Polishes from places other than Maxwell Express anymore.

I think there probably is a definite transition from steaming to grilling for polishes over the past few years, but I think that switch is happening for hot dogs, as well.

The char-dog is more popular than ever these days, no?

JeffB wrote:Don't count me among those who think that Vienna can't make a good Polish.

Don't get me wrong. I would take Vienna anyday over some national brand. I once ordered what was called a polish sausage in San Fransisco. I should have known better, but I was homesick. What I got was like dog food in a tube. I couldn't eat it. Kinda like the time I ordered an Italian beef in Minnesota, and got a breaded and deep-fried hamburger patty covered in spaghetti sauce with mozzarella cheese melted on it.

It's just that given the choice, I have always chosen the cut sausage. Now, I have learned that there may actually be no difference between them, except for the form factor.

Hey Cathy, I thought you said hot dogs were the LEAST controversial.

Yeah,

I haven't had much luck with encased meats in California either, Molinari sausage excluded.

As "foodies" become more enamored of rustic salume and charcuterie and such, I wonder why there isn't more national attention on the absolutely phenomenal, traditional, uninterrupted, sausage culture in Chicago -- from Italian, to Hungarian, to German, to Balkan, to Mexican, to Argentine, to Delta hot links, to Thai, to especially, Polish. This used to be a source of civic shame, with Da Bears guys having heart attacks after eating brats and Polish. Couple of years back some "foodie" was bemoaning the lack of artisnal lunchmeat making here, like what was happening at certain paces in LA and Seattle. Dumb.

[Edited to recognize the greatness of hot links]

I grew up on Roosevelt & Keeler in the late 40's. My grandparents would take me for a street car ride east on Roosevelt Road, which back then was called 12th Street to Maxwell Street for a day of shopping. These were the days when Vienna Beef had their plant & factory store on Halsted & 12th Street. There were always hot dog vendors selling grilled and deep fried Vienna Beef Polish. I remember eating my first Maxwell Street Polish. It was a crispy, greasy, thick skinned sausage with cross cut ends, smothered with onions and mustard. As a kid, I hated onions, but my grandmother always said they were good for me. Back then, the Polish had coarser meat, unlike the products of today and there was no such thing as a steamed poppy seed bun or neon green relish. When we moved to Lincolnwood in 1955, Superdawg was serving Vienna natural casings, while the Ranch on Devon served Vienna natural casings and their "Romanian Delite," which was a spicy, thick skinned Polish.

CSD

CSD