I am the owner of the Cheese Stands Alone, and the large loaves that we are selling are indeed $8.
The customer who came in and claimed that they were over $9 was also purchasing a soda.
Crust bread (eight) dollars + Limonata soda (.92) + tax (.21) = $9.13

Please be aware that the loaves are all handmade, with the tippity-top ingredients, and are quite possibly one of the best breads I've ever tasted.

Didn't mean to sound so snippy about the mistake price posted, but the bread is $8.

Thanks-
Sarah Parker
Cheese Stands Alone

trixie-pea wrote:I'm all for paying up a little for true quality, but, generally speaking, that seems very high for bread, even for a perfect organic artisanal loaf.

trixie-pea,

I agree whole-heartedly.

I love bread and appreciate the quality that comes through thanks to excellent ingredients and -- much more importantly -- a highly skilled baker.* But that said, I find the prices quoted by Charles above staggeringly high. Setting aside the offerings aroung Chicagoland, Crust's prices are significantly higher than those at Acme Bakery in Berkeley, which is without doubt a particularly outstanding purveyor of bread and one that is located in an area with a generally very high cost of living and an audience of people who are quite willing to pay top dollar for food.

It certainly sounds as though the quality at Crust is very high and, as someone who has spent and spends a lot of time thinking about (as well as making and eating) bread, I'd like to try it but ultimately I find $5 for three quarters of a pound loaf absurd.† Clearly, the audience isn't people who love great bread per se but people who have something approaching an unlimited budget. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever: I wish Crust great success, look forward to trying their bread one day, but given the prices and my own ambivalence toward the 'organic' label, there are to my mind more reasonable ways to fill the bread basket with quality.

Antonius

P.S. A very respectable baguette from the Medici Bakery in Hyde Park costs $2.05. I would guess that Fox & Obel charges more than that but I can't remember how much; it's been a while since I've been there for, as great a store as it is, the 'gourmet' mark-up -- which to a significant degree runs independently of and is piled on to the higher price of good quality -- is a turn-off to me. In that regard, I note that the aforementioned Acme sells their delicious baguettes for $1.65 or so, I believe. Other loaves there seemed to be generally in the $2.50 - $3 range as of a few days ago, though I didn't make notes (in part since the prices seemed unremarkable in comparison with prices of quality bread elsewhere).

* Ingredients are important but what I mean to say is great ingredients in the hands of a lousy baker will yield nothing of interest, whereas run-of-the-industrial-mill ingredients in the hands of a great baker will be nothing to turn one's nose up at.

† Edited for correction of typo: "half" replaced with "three quarters".

At Green City Market on Saturday, Red Hen was selling baguettes for $4 and Benison was selling them for $3. Organic Heirlooms at Green Acres' stand were $3 or $4 a lb. (can't remember which).

When you consider the price of these loaves in comparison to other types of quality handmade baked goods, the prices don't seem so bad. You would not think twice about paying $8 for a 24oz coffee cake or 1 1/2 lbs of muffins or half a dozen pastries or even handmade bagels. As a person who much prefers a slice of toast in the morning to pastries or muffins, I can see spending more for special bread as a treat (but maybe not 3X more). Also, If you are spending $18 a pound for some artisanal cheese or imported sausage and $20 on a bottle of wine, what's another $5 for some really good bread ?

That said, I do feel it is in the very nature of bread to be a relative bargain. Bread owes its very existence to being filling and cheap to produce and buy. If it were not so, bread would never have attained the central role it has in so many cuisines. To me, really expensive bread is a sort of culinary oxymoron.

Nevertheless, I am a proponent of free markets, especially on this most basic entrepreneurial level. If Mr. Crust can make a living selling $8 loaves of bread, more power to him. Obviously, there are people who feel his product is worth the price. Actually I look forward to trying it, but I doubt at that price, it will become my daily bread.

I find $5 for a half pound loaf absurd.

actually, as charles/crust said(as did i in my initial post), it's $5 for 3/4pound, not 1/2 pound. yes, it's expensive. but if he had the volume that acme bakery (for example) had, he would probably not have to charge as much. i'm guessing this is still a start up operation. justjoan

As a point of comparison on price, Fox and Obel's baguette sells for $2.19. A 1 lb. loaf of the Ciderhouse Rye is $2.25. The 2 lb. loaf of whole wheat, made with a sourdough starter, is $3.99.

While there are a good many items at Fox and Obel that come with a "gourmet mark-up", as Antonius says--chief among them, packaged goods that can be had much cheaper at ethnic grocers--I don't believe the breads are among them. And, on balance, I find them exceptional.

LTH,

Just to add another highly subjective opinion to the mix. I bought choice rib eye steak at Paulina Market for $15.95 per lb and a couple of racks of loin back (aka baby back) ribs for $9.99 per lb. Both of the per lb prices seemed high, but I was in testing mode for ribs and, as the wife wanted steak on the grill for dinner, bought those at the same time.

After grilling the steaks with lump charcoal and, the next day, going low and slow with lump and apple wood on the racks of ribs, I found the choice rib eye steaks worth the premium, the loin back ribs not.

This is not to say the ribs I bought at Paulina were not quite good, they were nice quality, just not noticeably better as to be worth, to me, the premium paid.

That said, first chance I get I will try Crust bread and draw my own conclusions.

Enjoy,
Gary

Paulina Market
3501 N Lincoln Ave
Chicago, IL 60657
773-248-6272

Aaron Deacon wrote:As a point of comparison on price, Fox and Obel's baguette sells for $2.19. A 1 lb. loaf of the Ciderhouse Rye is $2.25. The 2 lb. loaf of whole wheat, made with a sourdough starter, is $3.99.

While there are a good many items at Fox and Obel that come with a "gourmet mark-up", as Antonius says--chief among them, packaged goods that can be had much cheaper at ethnic grocers--I don't believe the breads are among them. And, on balance, I find them exceptional.

Yes, Aaron, I agree with that. My problem is, if I go to F&O to get bread, I'll surely find a few other items I 'need'... ... Their bread prices are not outrageous, but the gourmet-mark-up on other items there (and in many other stores) certainly exists. If one maintains discipline, it's a great store...

*

As Gary indicates, 'price' is to a certain and not inconsiderable extent related to one's own sense of 'value'. Was an item worth what I paid for it under the circumstances? I just paid $2 for a single (heirloom) tomato off in the wilds of northern California. Crazy? Yes. Did I feel somewhat ripped off? Yes. Did I have a choice under the circumstances (i.e. to go elsewhere)? Not really. Was the tomato good? It was exquisite. Okay.

*

Appy-polly-logies for saying 'half' when I meant to say "three quarters of a" in my preceding post; the typo was corrected and the sentiment remains the same. I find that price really high but please note that my tone toward Charles from Crust is wholly respectful. I admire greatly anyone who applies himself seriously to a noble métier like bread-making and, as I said above, I would enjoy trying his products. On the other hand, I am not rich and from what Charles himself says, his marketing is toward a 'gourmet' market:

they are attractively packaged, designed for the gourmet market and customers who value organic locally produced goods. (Organic Heirloom tomatoes cost $4-$7/lb.) Our breads are to be savored with the fine cheeses at The Cheese Stands Alone and a nice glass of wine.

Again, that's an absolutely legitimate business strategy which may well succeed but not one that is compatible with my purchasing habits, no matter how much I love great bread. For a regular or even common bread option, I need a certain balance of quality, availability and price and attractive packaging and exclusive distribution don't enhance my personal experience sufficiently to offset the cost.

*

With regard to volume, yes, it's true that Acme deals in considerable volume but they maintain very high quality without beastly pricing. The bakes are not huge, as I understand it, but now, after 20 odd years, they have three crews which work 24 hours: small bakes, done correctly, with fresh bread coming out around the clock.

Of course, a small bakery that just opened can't be running on that sort of model and maybe that particular model is not of interest to the folks at Crust. I'm sure Charles has thought long and hard about how he wants to market things and I don't pretend to know his business. But -- for better or worse -- his pricing will keep the audience limited. If that works for him, great, and perhaps as an occasional treat, his bread will find a much broader audience than I imagine. That would be swell all around, I suppose, though more accesible great bread (as well as circuses) is still needed...

Again, I applaud people who do things with passion and knowledge and skill and if the quality of the bread from Crust is as good as some indicate here, I'll be happy to clap too. Chicago needs more excellent bakeries, though we do have some fine ones already, and the suggestion by Alfonso XIV that Crust's bread may be the best out there certainly warrants investigation.

There is no more satisfying food than well-made bread.

Antonius

Just trying to orient myself here, but what does a baguette of quality comparable to Crust's (or better) cost in Paris? More or less than $4.00? If less, how much of that is attributable to availabilty of ingredients (i.e., does it just cost more to make good bread in America than France?)

You'd be hard pressed to find a baguette over 3 euro in Paris. The ones we bought, which were certainly better than F&O's, were all in the 1-1.5 euro range.

Crust,

It seems you are taking advantage of an opportunity and filling a void of sorts. I am certain that many tasteful Parisians would gladly pay 8 euro for tortillas expertly made from freshly ground masa that cost, at most, a quarter a package in Little Village, still too hot to hold. And they would be correct in doing so. I'm serious. There really is no substitute, regardless of what someone might say.

Would I gladly pay a few bucks more for a truly great loaf than for an OK, but very fancily marketed loaf from Whole Foods? Absolutely, and I will. But then there are the loaves from places such as Baltic and D'Amato. Good and cheap, though maybe not as convenient.

In any event, no one in this country is forced to buy $8 bread, $500 baby strollers, etc. If it's worth it, best of luck.

LTH,

Speaking of premium priced flour and yeast, we made two of the Oprah approved Williams Sonoma Croissants, 15 croissants shipped to your door for $39.95. My wife had caught Oprah's holiday gift idea show, watched The Oprah and guests rave about the croissants, and we've sent them to a few friends as gifts.

One of those friends, RevrendAndy, thought highly enough of the WS croissants to send them to Ellen for her recent B-Day. Short story long, the croissants are terrific, light, flaky, buttery, depth of flavor from an overnight rise, I was surprised as all get-out.

Simple to store and make, keep them in your freezer, they are shipped frozen, you take out the number of croissants you need, let them rise on the counter overnight, bake, eat.

Maybe it's a case of, as Vital says about dim sum, tending to like the last one you've had, but I don't remember having a croissant in Chicago that touched these for texture and taste.

Would I buy them for myself, no, probably not, seems a little too extravagant, but, who knows, if, as Calvin Trillin wonders, the Emperor of China came to visit, I might just buy a pack or two.

Enjoy,
Gary

sparker444 wrote:I am the owner of the Cheese Stands Alone, and the large loaves that we are selling are indeed $8.
The customer who came in and claimed that they were over $9 was also purchasing a soda.

Didn't mean to sound so snippy about the mistake price posted, but the bread is $8.

Sarah Parker
Cheese Stands Alone

Sarah--

You have a right to be snippy. I was completely in the wrong. Even if I was off by a dime, it would be bad. But, it was an honest mistake--I wasn't purposefully trying to inflate the price to make my case. My apologies!

I was just surprised that its cost never came up in this discussion. From the sounds of everyone's support and praise, it seems as if Crust bread is worth every penny. But, even at $8, the price still caught me off guard--and I can't imagine that my reaction is uncommon.

With that said, I am all for quality in the market place, even if I can't afford it.

Just trying to orient myself here, but what does a baguette of quality comparable to Crust's (or better) cost in Paris? More or less than $4.00?

Bread prices in France are highly regulated. A regular, non organic baguette in Paris runs about 0.75-1E ($1-1.25). That's typically the same whether you get it from an artisanal boulanger or a thaw & bake operation - it is simply not allowed to be sold for more (or less, as far as I know). The more artisinal whole wheat/multi-grain/organic, etc. baguettes are more expensive, but even in the best known boulangeries I don't think I've ever seen them over 2-2.5E ($2.50-$3). When I was in Paris in June I stopped by Poilane, arguably the most famous boulangerie in the world to pick up their signature "miche." It must have weighed 3-4 pounds and lasted almost an entire week. It cost 4E.

If less, how much of that is attributable to availabilty of ingredients (i.e., does it just cost more to make good bread in America than France?)

If we're talking baguettes, the only ingredients are flour, water, salt, yeast. Sure, some flours can be more expensive, but in general, these are not ingredients that cost a lot by themselves. My understanding is that the main cost in producing high quality baguettes is the cost of a good commercial bread oven. Because the cost of the oven is so high - and, i would imagine, the cost of powering it - bread bakers must rely on volume. In France, this is fairly simple: there is very high demand and high availability, and boulangers can make money on volume - and provide very very fresh product - in a way that American bakers have a difficult time replicating.

Yes, $8 a loaf bread -- or whatever was the equivalent in 1789 -- was part of what led to the Revolution, and to avoid a recurrence of such events the basic baguette is now the same price everywhere in France. (I haven't sampled the Crust bread so I'm not making a comment on the worthiness of that bread or the fairness of its price.) Local agriculture is heavily subsidized (and the citizenry taxed accordingly) to ensure both quality and lower prices in France (our agriculture is subsidized -- and we're taxed -- to ensure the low price of Coke.) Having just spent two weeks in Normandy and Paris blissfully enjoying all that incomparable bread, I would agree that high turnover of product allows for investment in equipment and is critical to the quality of the bread, but I also suspect that the quality of locally milled flour has something to do with it -- since in France the remains of three day old bagettes tasted better than anything fresh I've had here. But I'm no baker, so it's just a hunch.

Ironically, most of the wheat used in French flour -- hard winter wheat -- comes from North Dakota!

Hard red winter wheat is grown from Texas north into Nebraska. Hard red spring wheat is grown from Nebraska north into the prairie provinces of Canada. Crops of both are short this year due to drought in the plains although we won't know how poor the spring wheat crop is until September. Durum wheat in the northern plains will also have supply problems, which will have widespread ramifications due to the amount normally exported to Italy. There is a huge crop of soft, red winter wheat, which is used in pastry flour.

Hardness is related to protein content because wheat protein (gluten) is harder than starch. The spring wheat has higher protein than winter wheat but usually yields less. Excessive moisture tends to produce more starch relative to protein. We can't grow good wheat for bread in Illinois.

Possible bias note: I own a wheat farm in Kansas.

Well, I said I was no baker, and obviously I'm not French either. (I've been in North Dakota on several occasions, though, and seen that wheat! But, irony noted, one is hard pressed can't get any remotely decent bread in that state -- a good biscuit, to be sure, can be had -- or salad either, though their prime rib is sure tasty.) But then I would ask you, because it honestly perplexes me -- if the issue is the bread oven, isn't there one establishment somewhere in the United States willing to invest in one to produce bread that might rival French loaves? We drove all over Normandy and stopped at numerous boulangeries in tiny towns (and no matter how small the village, there was always one, and usually two or more). While there were some that we judged greater than others, they all offered bread far superior to anything we'd ever had here. Is the oven all there is to it? If so, why can't Rich Melman just make great bread his next concept?

Rich Melman started Corner Bakery in conjunction with Maggiano's. The bread was much better but not really great before LEYE sold them to Brinker.

ekreider wrote:Hard red winter wheat is grown from Texas north into Nebraska. Hard red spring wheat is grown from Nebraska north into the prairie provinces of Canada. Crops of both are short this year due to drought in the plains although we won't know how poor the spring wheat crop is until September. Durum wheat in the northern plains will also have supply problems, which will have widespread ramifications due to the amount normally exported to Italy. There is a huge crop of soft, red winter wheat, which is used in pastry flour.

Hardness is related to protein content because wheat protein (gluten) is harder than starch. The spring wheat has higher protein than winter wheat but usually yields less. Excessive moisture tends to produce more starch relative to protein. We can't grow good wheat for bread in Illinois.

Possible bias note: I own a wheat farm in Kansas.

Thanks, great info. A few years back, when I visited Henry's Farm, which is near Eureka, IL, I learned there was an organic wheat farm next door, but I have no idea of the quality. I also know that there is some wheat grown in Wisconsin, and have purchased some at various farmer's markets this year--not the least due to a great Ann Fisher tip!

My understanding of Wisconsin agriculture history, which I'm not exactly an expert on, is that wheat was the original crop of the state, but really wrecked the land, and because of that, the state government encouraged cows/grass/milk/cheese.

I also agree, per Ms. Paris above, that the ovens are the huge cost/issue. I cannot imagine Crust can use the same wood burning oven that Poilane uses.

Here is a link to a great page about the top boulangeries in Paris including an article about the baker who won the prize for best baguette last year (it was a thing of beauty). Unfortunately, the website is in French. Fortunately, there are lots and lots of pictures to click through. BTW, the descriptions in the photo gallery of boulangeries lists the price for a baguette at most of them (.95-1.10 eu).

http://www.linternaute.com/villes/paris ... aire.shtml

From Illinois eastward soft wheat is grown. This is what you want for pastry or biscuits. All-purpose flour normally uses a blend of hard and soft wheats, which has too much gluten for biscuits but not enough for good bread.

Hard red winter wheat grown in Illinois yields very well, has too much starch relative to gluten and is best used to feed chickens.

Wheat isn't hard on the land. However, small grains and row crops such as corn and soybeans don't work well on land with more than gentle slopes because of soil erosion. Strip planting on the contour helps, but lots of Wisconsin land should be in grass or trees to preserve the soil. This country has a lot of land that is more suited to pasture or hay than conventional crops. The only safe way to make this land productive for food is to grow livestock for meat or milk.

ToniG wrote:While there were some that we judged greater than others, they all offered bread far superior to anything we'd ever had here. Is the oven all there is to it?

The artful use of an oven - gas or electric or wood - can have a huge effect on the character of the crust. But the flavor of the bread and the texture of the crumb is influenced by so many factors other than the oven. For example, protein content is just one of a dozen properties of the flour that affect the interaction between the flour and the water and the leavening. And what you use for leavening - commercial yeast or starter cultures - can make a huge difference in the taste and texture.

The formation of gluten by kneading - by hand or by different kinds of machines (hook, spiral, fork) is full of other variables and is further complicated by the ratios of the ingredients and the baking temperature. It takes an experienced and caring artisan to master all of these things to produce a great loaf. In this country, many times corners are cut, yields increased, and shelf life extended through the use of artificial additives, but the quality of the bread invariably suffers.

Bill/SFNM

They sell flour specifically for bread at my local Cub, and I know I've seen it elsewhere (Whole Foods, etc). In fact, there was a lot of it at Cub this last weekend. Gold Medal brand. WF usually has a few, including King Arthur.

I've tried a dozen bread flours and much prefer [url=http://www.worldpantry.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=132201&prrfnbr=176803]Giustos
[/url]

Bill/SFNM

On the one hand, inarguably, $8 for a loaf of bread is a lot. More than an everyday price. No argument there.

On the other hand, I feel like I've paid $50 for a few slices a few times, when I've had an expensive meal and the bread was about the only thing that satisfied.

When bread is truly wonderful, what price is really too much? If hot crusty bread is more satisfying than a steak, which it sometimes is, why not pay a steak price to have it-- at least once, or once in a while? If mediocre is $1.50 and pretty good is $2, does that mean great should only be $2.50? But what if it's way more than just 25% better? What if it's night and day better?

Probably that's an overstatement, because we have a fair amount of very good bread in Chicago, if little to no great bread. But there's also the issue of what the success of a top-notch new bakery could do for the scene overall. If Crust bread is really good, if it's bread that we'd like to see get big and successful and the price would come down and it would be in restaurants everywhere (and we can then bitch that it's not as good as it used to be when it was just sold at Edgewater Market), then I think all of us should look at part of that $8 as a sort of investment. An investment in improving the quality of bread in Chicago, by helping Crust survive the startup phase. An investment in encouraging the next guy, too, who will see that there is an audience that truly appreciates the craft of fine breadmaking. I'm not saying we should get took, but somehow, I doubt there's a fat profit in bread during the startup phase.

Of course, everybody has to decide for themselves how to integrate it into their own budget, and maybe that just means one purchase now out of curiosity. Fair enough. But I'm going to pick some up today, and I hope it's so good, and so full of the breadmaker's heart and soul, and such an encouragement to the next guy, that I'll come out thinking $8 is pretty cheap.

leek wrote:At Green City Market on Saturday, Red Hen was selling baguettes for $4 and Benison was selling them for $3. Organic Heirlooms at Green Acres' stand were $3 or $4 a lb. (can't remember which).

red hen certainly doesn't charge $4 for a baguette in their store.. are the ones they sell at the market organic, or are the ones in the store less organic? or are they just taking advantage of capitalism? )

...btw, haven't tried Crust, but as far as I'm concerned Red Hen has some of the best bread in the city... Artopolis on Halsted in Greektown has pretty good baguettes though too.

HI,

A few years ago, there was a side-by-side bread tasting conducted. The clear winner was not available commercially, rather it was MAG who makes her own bread from a starter she's been nurturing for at least 10 years now. Heck, the starter is significantly older than her son.

I think it is time to consider doing another side-by-side given the newcomers to the market.

Regards,

The Red Hen products at green city are organic and the ones in the store generally (always?) aren't.

A baguette in the red hen store is <$2.

It's also a very good baguette, and just fine for sandwiches.

Well, I didn't have to pick any up, it was delivered to me:



Not by Crust, by G Wiv who had just been to Cheese Stands Alone and cut it in half to share.

It's some kind of dark, dense, bitter rye, I forget exactly what he said. A little too intense for everyday use, unless you have a good braunschweiger to shmear on it, maybe. It's good, though. I'll happily try others.