Okay, I have to admit, six hours later, the idea of eating all of that bitter, dense half loaf before it hardened into igneous rock wasn't entirely enticing. Then I remembered I still had a camembert-like cheese (Mt. Tam Triple Cream) from Cowgirl Creamery in San Francisco-- just down the hall from the aforementioned Acme Bakery in the Ferry Building, actually. I cut the bread, I cut the cheese, I shmeared the rich, gooey-buttery-creamy cheese on the bread... and the result was more than the sum of its parts. This one, at least, of Crust's breads needs something on it.

Mike G wrote:It's some kind of dark, dense, bitter rye, I forget exactly what he said.

Mike,

Multi-grain sourdough bread.

The Cheese Stands Alone had three types of Crust bread on hand, laughing crow seed bread, apple cider rye and the multi-grain sourdough, all were the "large" size, though no weight is given on the packing, and cost $8 per loaf. All were quite dense, the multi-grain being the least so. Matt, of The Cheese Stands Alone, said they had been delivered on Saturday and that Charles, of Crust, says they are best eaten a day or two after baking.

I had a similar experience to Mike's in that eaten out of hand I did not find the multi-grain appealing, later in the evening, lightly toasted and eaten with a mildly odiferous French cows milk cheese, Pie d Angloys, which Matt recommended, the bread took on a different character.

While I understand, appreciate and applaud the artisanal aspect of Crust bread, I don't think I will be purchasing it on a regular basis, though I do want to try Crust's sourdough baguette.

While at The Cheese Stands Alone I also purchased, in addition to the Pie d Angloys and a terrific 5 year gouda, a Red Hen baguette ($2.50). While I might pine for the good ol' days when Red Hen was just a young chick, the baguettes are still mighty good. I have, however, sworn off Red Hen's organic brand after having handed the Red Hen vendor at Green City Market a $10 dollar bill for 1 organic baguette and 1 organic bagel and, instead of getting change, was asked for additional money.

Currently my favorite breads in Chicago are MAG's homemade bread, by a landslide, followed by Medici Bakery on 57th, Fox & Obel, Red Hen, Masi and D'Amato's. Kaufman's on Dempster for Jewish style rye/pumpernickel and Baltic for black bread. Many moons ago, when Jennifer Smith and Jean Joho were still involved, Corner Bakery was very good, alas mediocrity struck and stuck.

MAG, I just had a terrific silent auction idea for the upcoming Purple Asparagus Volo Event, MAG's home made bread, I promise to be a strong contender in the bidding.

MAG's Bread
[

Enjoy,
Gary

I was trying to stay out of this one, but I agree with Mike & with Gary. The "Crust" bread that I tried from Bleeding Heart was a little too dense for my taste, and I do like a chewy bread. But that's the only one I've tried. I would love to see a good bread produced commercially 'cause it just kills me to fork over $7.00 for a loaf of Red Hen Bread, which I did this morning as I've been too busy with other projects to activate my starter.

Though do recall that my bread is available commercially, you just have pay my catering rates.

Hey Mike, I've never tried any of the Cowgirl Creamery cheeses. Have you tried anything other than the camembert-style? If so, how were they?

And yes, Gary, I will add a two loaf bread item to the auction. That's an easy one.

MAG,

The Redhawk cheese from Cowgirl Creamery is one of my favorite cheeses--and certainly my favorite domestic cheese. It's a washed rind cheese that smells like a barnyard, and tastes like a dream.

MAG,

I bought three cheeses-- or perhaps I should say, I bought the three cheeses, as the Cowgirl Creamery shop carries a range of items (bought some good fresh mozzarella there too, saw things like nice salumi and so on) but they only have whatever they happen to have at that moment of their own stock. Which you sure can't argue with as an expression of their commitment to small quantities of top quality, sold at the peak of freshness.



The three I bought were, as noted above, the Mt. Tam triple cream camembert-like cheese, which is really rich and wonderful; a cheese called St. Pat, another camembert-like cheese but a little dryer and chewier, wrapped in nettles (which accounts for the fact that it's covered in a green powder which, I have to trust them, isn't mold)-- not sure what that was supposed to do for the flavor, it was a nice cheese but didn't seem "nettle-y" and wasn't as luxurious as the Mt. Tam; and a third washed rind cheese, the one which stank up my hotel room from inside the fridge. I gave that to G Wiv, he'll have to say how that was. (Thanks, Trixie-Pea, Redhawk is exactly what it was. Maybe you should get yourself invited over to G Wiv's soon!)

Anyway, as I said in my SF post, the one thing I really liked and admired was the market in the Ferry Building, some shops more than others but Cowgirl Creamery has to be one of the best cheese shops in the country and is well worth a visit and stocking up.

I was really impressed with the Cowgirl Creamery and the Ferry Building Market in general as well. Granted, it was a crazed mob scene when I went, but even then it was still great to have so many beautiful products in one place. I think the element that makes it better than a gourmet market like Fox and Obel is that the purveyors are there selling their goods and engaging the customer.

Mike, did you talk with the olive oil folks from McEvoy?

Talk? To a merchant?

Oh, that's what you do when you don't have two kids pulling on you, isn't it?

No, I didn't get to talk much, it's also why I hardly had any pictures from the Ferry Building, just the mushroom shop, and why I had to skip the gorgeous tomatoes there and use lousy grocery store ones from Tiburon with my fresh mozz from Cowgirl. I did buy some avocado-flavored honey, or so they say, which is quite good (there was a sage honey at the same stand, though, that was seriously yucky); a couple of breads from Acme (a sourdough baguette and a dark raisin bread, both very good, but not obviously better to me than, say F&O's here), and I think we bought some chichi little soaps. But a lot of the stuff I would have liked to buy, just wouldn't have traveled, alas. I can only dream of returning on a more leisurely, adult schedule...

Boy, I hadn't gone through this thread before I was complaining about $7.00 for a loaf of Red Hen Bread. $8.00 a loaf? That's pretty breathtaking particularly when you're talking about a baker without a retail lease. I know that people might think this heresy from me, but this is where the "organic" label has gone wild. When organics can only be bought by the wealthy, something is deeply wrong. And we can go round and round - but $8.00 a loaf is a price tag for the wealthy. That's why while some people decry the co-opting of "organic" by the Walmarts of the world, I shrug my shoulders.

I don't know if anyone else recalls the op-ed piece written last year by Julie Powell, the author of the Julie-Julia project. It was a wonderful piece, which unfortunately has fairly few pithy sound bites. The jist of it is, the problem with the organic movement is that it equates the "organic" movement with good taste and with decency, without acknowleging that many people with good taste cannot afford organic products. I guess the best quote I can find is in the last 2 paragraphs.

"With his gastronomic tests, Brillat-Savarin sought to find others like himself, of whatever economic status, who truly enjoyed food. It's easy to do the same today, but the method isn't to assume that everyone at Whole Foods at Whole Foods is wise and everyone at the Western Beef benighted.

Instead, look at their carts. Some shop at Western Beef for nothing more than diet cola and frozen bagels; some at Whole Foods for premade sushi and overdesigned bottles of green tea. These people have much in common. So too, do the professorial types poring over the sweet corn and dewey blueberries at the greenmarket and the Honduran family at the discount grocery, piling their cart high with rice and dried beans and canned tomatoes and all the other stuff you need to make something out of nothing."

This is why when we at Purple Asparagus do cooking demos in the schools, we don't press the organic issue. It can be off putting because it is expensive.

But back to the original point, what is good bread: flour, salt, yeast. And yes time, but very little active time. So, yeah, I don't know what to say about $8.00 a loaf.

MAG wrote:But back to the original point, what is good bread: flour, salt, yeast. And yes time, but very little active time. So, yeah, I don't know what to say about $8.00 a loaf.

Yup. Even understanding that they're trying to do something different and use only high quality ingredients , etc. etc., it still is a ... hmmm ... surprising price. And as I noted before, perhaps exclusivity, as well as packaging, is part of the marketing strategy. But daily bread it cannot be.

It will be interesting to see how they do. Perhaps a limited, high end market is a good way to go here in Chicago. But we need more places like Medici, alongside the best ethnic bakeries.

Antonius

MAG wrote:But back to the original point, what is good bread: flour, salt, yeast. And yes time, but very little active time.

What about the years it takes for a master baker to learn his craft? I have an obvious bias because I am aspiring artisan bread maker. A friend once asked me how long it took to make a loaf of bread. I answered, "All my life". Sounds corny, I know, but think about this when you sample artisan bread. It takes a great deal of hard-earned experience and skill to create a great loaf. Its value shouldn't be judged on a "time and materials" basis.

Bill/SFNM

Bill, do you get Edward Behr's The Art of Eating? I ask because an issue or two back there was a review of several bread books by some guy who clearly knew his stuff and then some... but he made the process of making bread sound basically impossible, his sense of the appropriate temperature ranges, rest times, etc. was so precise and narrow. It sort of discouraged me from ever trying anything ever again... well, okay, that's an exaggeration, and I'm prepared to accept that my breadmaking may stop at "pretty good" and never reach "great" and that's okay when pretty good homemade bread fresh from the oven is still a pretty wonderful thing in its own homey way, even if it's not aiming to be the kind of thing like you make. But I just wonder what somebody like you thought of an article like that, that is clearly very learned... but dispiriting.

(If you haven't seen it, I'll dig it up and see if there's a couple of key points that can be excerpted or summarized.)

Sounds corny, I know, but think about this when you sample artisan bread.

From Cathy2

A few years ago, there was a side-by-side bread tasting conducted. The clear winner was not available commercially, rather it was MAG who makes her own bread from a starter she's been nurturing for at least 10 years now. Heck, the starter is significantly older than her son.

It's actually 12 years old now. I've never had the opportunity to make it in the fancy wood-fired oven to which I aspire. Instead, over the past 12 years, I've baked it in a 20 year old oven in a rental aparment, which was at least 100 degrees off at any given time, an oven that would cut out at the drop of the hat, a Viking (ah yes I do recall), and my current Kitchen Aid. I'm not one to toot my own horn, but the vote was what it was. While I would never call myself a "master baker" as I find that term, at least for a non-professional, pretentious, I guess I can say I know my bread and I know what it takes to bake a good loaf. And in support of Charles at Crust, I can only imagine what it takes to make 50 good loaves in a day as I know what it takes to make a multitude of good meals in a professional setting. Nevertheless, I stand behind my original point, which was that $8.00 for a single loaf is hell of a lot of dough.

his sense of the appropriate temperature ranges, rest times, etc. was so precise and narrow

Mike, I never saw that article, but I will comment that, in my experience, temperature and time are the best friend of an aspiring home baker. In fact, I dare say that the best friend a baker has is a thermometer. I still take the temperature of the water, the flour, the air etc. when baking. This is what creates a consistent environment. I think the cookbook writers who make bread baking sound romantic and all about feel do more for the ego of the reader than the final product. If the air is hot, you decrease the temperature of the water. If the air is cold, you do the reverse. One you've baked a multitude of loaves, you can tell when something is wrong, but initially, you monitor temperature and time, which will then give you a sense of how the dough is progressing.

MAG wrote:Boy, I hadn't gone through this thread before I was complaining about $7 The jist of it is, the problem with the organic movement is that it equates the "organic" movement with good taste and with decency, without acknowleging that many people with good taste cannot afford organic products. I guess the best quote I can find is in the last 2 paragraphs.

"With his gastronomic tests, Brillat-Savarin sought to find others like himself, of whatever economic status, who truly enjoyed food. It's easy to do the same today, but the method isn't to assume that everyone at Whole Foods at Whole Foods is wise and everyone at the Western Beef benighted.

Instead, look at their carts. Some shop at Western Beef for nothing more than diet cola and frozen bagels; some at Whole Foods for premade sushi and overdesigned bottles of green tea. These people have much in common. So too, do the professorial types poring over the sweet corn and dewey blueberries at the greenmarket and the Honduran family at the discount grocery, piling their cart high with rice and dried beans and canned tomatoes and all the other stuff you need to make something out of nothing."

Last night while the kidz were swimmin' away, I was checking out the news in the Quad Cities Argus, fine paper that it is. There was an article on organic stuff. Along with the article, there was a tasting of several organic and non-organic items. Except for bananas, the organics won by a large amount.

What they were noticing, however, I believe, was not the organic-ness of the products, but the fact that of the products they chose, the organics were also way more artisianal or made better. For instance milk, if you get a corp-organic milk like Horizon, I do not think you'll notice much, if anything. Now, take something like Traders Creamery or Oak Grove, and you will clearly find a difference. The fact that these products are organic is one of many quality differences. You could say the same amount Red Hen's bread, or probably Crust (which I have not tried) or the cheese pictured above.

The way I have been looking at this stuff, is yeah, it's more money, but compare it to a restaurant. If you eat out at even a cheap place, like a diner, you're spending over $10 per person*. For dreck, the most commercial of food. Sure, I understand, this is a distiction without a difference for some eaters, but on the other hand, if you are going to spend that amount on eating, there are quality ways of doing it.

*Yes, I understand all the good options under $10, that's not the point.

Mike G wrote:Bill, do you get Edward Behr's The Art of Eating? I ask because an issue or two back there was a review of several bread books by some guy who clearly knew his stuff and then some... but he made the process of making bread sound basically impossible,

No, Mike I haven't seen it, but the process of making bread couldn't be simpler. Cultures all over the world have been doing it for thousands of years so it isn't exactly rocket science. Like BBQ, a newbie can create a result better than most commercial products. But from that point, there is no limit in terms of improvements. As with all cooking, with practice there is a point where you gain enough experience that you can disconnect from the rigidity of recipes and proceed more and more on your own. Sounds like that author had long surpassed that point.

Over at the pizzmaking.com forum, it is common for a newbie to post a simple, but legitimate question like: "How do I make a NY-style pizza crust" without realizing there are thousands of posts discussing the nuances of different ingredients & process. Some newbies get discouraged and disappear. A few stick it out, following reliable recipes, making adjustments for their own conditions until they achieve their desired results. Even fewer become completely enamored (obsessed?) with the craft and will go to any length to achieve perfection.

Did the article mention Nancy Silverton's Bread from the La Brea Bakery? That is the book I currently use the most.

Bill/SFNM

Just a quick note about Nancy Silverton's book that Bill mentioned. A friend of ours cut his bread making teeth with her advice and recipes. During one of his initial trials, he was perplexed about some issue or another and needed help. So he calls La Brea and asks for Nancy Silverton, who without hesitation, walked him through the steps he needed offering sage advice and encouragement over the phone. Not that I'm saying that people should do this, but I always thought it was such a great gesture of service and a reflection for the passion that she obviously has.

Bill/SFNM wrote:

Mike G wrote:Bill, do you get Edward Behr's The Art of Eating? I ask because an issue or two back there was a review of several bread books by some guy who clearly knew his stuff and then some... but he made the process of making bread sound basically impossible,

No, Mike I haven't seen it, but the process of making bread couldn't be simpler. Cultures all over the world have been doing it for thousands of years so it isn't exactly rocket science. Like BBQ, a newbie can create a result better than most commercial products. But from that point, there is no limit in terms of improvements. As with all cooking, with practice there is a point where you gain enough experience that you can disconnect from the rigidity of recipes and proceed more and more on your own. Sounds like that author had long surpassed that point.

I'm in total agreement with Bill. My first forays into bread making were shockingly good. I don't think I don't chalk it up to any innate skill -- it's just not that difficult. Perhaps the leap from non-bread maker to novice can be made by most of us pretty readily, but the finer gradations on up take more attention/effort (or as Bill seems to suggest: experience).

z

Zeesh,

I agree, I think of homemade bread as being sort of like the Wine Spectator wine scale, ascending those last few points from 90 to 100 is increasingly hard, but you get the first 50 points just for being wine and not water or pineapple juice. I like The Art of Eating, it's wonderfully learned, but it does sometimes seem depressed about the impossibility of achieving full perfection, when we ought to be just as happy that there's so much high quality available now versus 20 or 50 years ago, and at least a healthy subculture to appreciate and support it.

Trix,

My only caveat about the Ferry Building market is that because they're all fixed stores, and presumably represent a fairly hefty investment, there's not that much serendipity there-- visitors tend to beeline for the famous names (Acme, Cowgirl, Ciao Bella, Slanted Door, etc.) and it would be very hard for a new little startup guy to have a place in there and introduce something unexpected at the market. I suspect you'd be more likely to find the latter at, say, the Marin farmers market or some such. To that point, though, I do admire Cowgirl for carrying stuff made by other small producers (though they basically have to, to have more than three things to sell), they at least are serving to introduce other artisanal producers to the market.

Actually, now that I think of it, interestingly the honey wasn't from a stand of its own, either-- it was just being sold from a little display, and purchases were handled by the guys booking tourist boat rides to Alcatraz and the like. They could use more of that kind of arrangement, I think. But again, a minor criticism for a great civic institution.


Written in perfect California foodese.

MAG wrote:"The "Crust" bread that I tried from Bleeding Heart was a little too dense for my taste, and I do like a chewy bread. "

Mike G wrote: . . . the rich, gooey-buttery-creamy cheese on the bread... and the result was more than the sum of its parts. This one, at least, of Crust's breads needs something on it.

First MAG's quote and then MikeG's sum up my experience completely. I am not a big fan of heavy, dense breads which usually come across the palate as dry, wonting in flavor, even chalky. Crust's heavier breads (especially the multi-grain) do not lack flavor and eaten alone exude a deep, rich earthiness that speaks of life. But I admit that I probably wouldn't enjoy this bread as a stand-alone, or standing alone in the kitchen, "chew" food.

But when any of their breads are paired with a rich paté, or strong cheese, or perfectly shaved prosciutto or saucisson, everything is elevated to something that makes you perk up your head and say wow. The two times that I've been privy to their bread tastings, it was under just such circumstances. Great wine, outstanding and unusual cheeses, deep rich smoky patès-- all carried on an incredible little pallet of baked dough that leaves you surprised, even astonished, at the power and importance of that simple component in the equation, the bread.

Without wanting to either defend or criticize the price, what I've decided is that (with the exception of the baguette which I've been eating daily) some of Crust's products are special occasion breads, brought out as the perfect accompaniment to wine, cheese, and charcuterie of a quality that are all worthy of each other.

Mike G wrote:and a third washed rind cheese, the one which stank up my hotel room from inside the fridge. I gave that to G Wiv, he'll have to say how that was.

Mike,

As Trixie-Pea surmised, it's Red Hawk, one of my all time favorite cheeses. Thanks!

I will say though that this bad boy is one of the most exasperatingly stinky cheeses that has ever graced my refrigerator. I mean really over the top, can't open the refrigerator door, get out the WWII gas mask my dad used to use for making horseradish, stinky.

Last night, around 3am, I hear noises downstairs, slight banging and a coughing sound. I go on full-alert, get the 9-iron and a flashlight, creep down the stairs.....noises coming from the kitchen.....quietly approach, Bang the refrigerator jumps straight up 7-8 inches, makes a weak sputtering sound, and the door starts to puff out.

What the hell, I get dropped in a Wes Craven movie? Nope, just the fridge trying to expel the Red Hawk before it dies of asphyxiation.

Speaking of stinky cheese, maybe I should have put this post in the What's That Smell thread.

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

Mike G wrote:and a third washed rind cheese, the one which stank up my hotel room from inside the fridge. I gave that to G Wiv, he'll have to say how that was.

Mike,

As Trixie-Pea surmised, it's Red Hawk, one of my all time favorite cheeses. Thanks!

I will say though that this bad boy is one of the most exasperatingly stinky cheeses that has ever graced my refrigerator. I mean really over the top, can't open the refrigerator door, get out the WWII gas mask my dad used to use for making horseradish, stinky.

Last night, around 3am, I hear noises downstairs, slight banging and a coughing sound. I go on full-alert, get the 9-iron and a flashlight, creep down the stairs.....noises coming from the kitchen.....quietly approach, Bang the refrigerator jumps straight up 7-8 inches, makes a weak sputtering sound, and the door starts to puff out.

What the hell, I get dropped in a Wes Craven movie? Nope, just the fridge trying to expel the Red Hawk before it dies of asphyxiation.

Speaking of stinky cheese, maybe I should have put this post in the What's That Smell thread.

Enjoy,
Gary

I can't recall if I've opined as per Cowgirl before...

lemme pile on with the whew! that's some stanky(omfg yummy) cheese!

suffice it to say I've been forbidden from bringing Cowgirl C washed-rind within 500 yards of the apt.

and I thought our raclette *cheese* debacle was the stink nadir!

fyi: I've been reduced to begging and compromises when the odd urge to heat up the raclette*machine*(thanks ma) strikes.