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  NYC Trans Fats Ban: A Good Thing?

  NYC Trans Fats Ban: A Good Thing?
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  • Post #31 - September 28th, 2006, 7:04 pm
    Post #31 - September 28th, 2006, 7:04 pm Post #31 - September 28th, 2006, 7:04 pm
    LAZ wrote:I'd just like to add that, despite all the supposedly evil stuff we eat nowadays, life expectancy has risen dramatically in the last 100 years. In 1900, before the invention of trans-fats, chemical pesticides, synthetic preservatives, trans-fats, fast food, high-fructose corn sweetener and sedentary activities like TV and surfing the Internet, and when -- so some people say -- levels of obesity were lower than today, the average American could expect to live to be 49.2 years old. In 2001, average life expectancy was 77.2 years.


    ... among many other medical advancements, there wasn't even Penicillin 100 years ago. This is the most flawed argument against the effects of HCFS, a sedentary lifestyle, etc., that I've ever heard. My god.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #32 - September 28th, 2006, 8:35 pm
    Post #32 - September 28th, 2006, 8:35 pm Post #32 - September 28th, 2006, 8:35 pm
    LAZ wrote:I'd just like to add that, despite all the supposedly evil stuff we eat nowadays, life expectancy has risen dramatically in the last 100 years. In 1900, before the invention of trans-fats, chemical pesticides, synthetic preservatives, trans-fats, fast food, high-fructose corn sweetener and sedentary activities like TV and surfing the Internet, and when -- so some people say -- levels of obesity were lower than today, the average American could expect to live to be 49.2 years old. In 2001, average life expectancy was 77.2 years.

    I resent deeply claims that fat people are lazy, prone to eat unhealthful foods and/or an expensive drain on society. (Compared to what? How about old people? Think of the savings in Medicare and Social Security if we just stop people from living so long.)


    There are a lot of things to react to here, and elsewhere in the discussion.

    First -- in agreement with the comments about generalizations about fat people, there have been several university studies in recent years that show that people who are overweight, and even clinically obese, can often be healthier than their thin counterparts as long as they eat wholesome food and exercise regularly. And no, if you eat wholesome food and exercise, you do not automatically lose weight. That was the other important finding of the study. You can gain weight eating nothing but health food. But you will be healthy, and your life expectancy may not be shortened by your weight.

    As for people living longer, the average, overall life span of the population as a whole has been increased primarily by eliminating infant mortality. The life expectancy of any given individual has not increased significantly (though it has increased some), but the biggest gain has been in the area of children's health -- most people died before the age of 10 in 1900. However, as I had stated earlier in this thread, life has not been shortened by the use of margarine.

    Interestingly, Dr. Dean Ornish, one of the leading heart health specialists in the country has written that research indicates that some of the leading causes of heart disease have nothing to do with fats, blood pressure, or heredity -- leading killers are hostility, self-absorption, and feeling isolated. So it's a lot safer to eat that stick of butter of you're happy, focused on others, and involved. An additional blessing -- researchers have discovered that if something tastes really good, it boosts your immune system. (So this is probably a healthier than average crowd.)

    I think the biggest issue is not whether people are leading shorter lives, which they aren't, but rather that they hope to escape disease -- and, in some cases, even death. (As a French friend once said, only Americans think that death is optional.) I eat healthful food because I want to stay well for whatever time I have. But I am also reminded that Robert Rodale, who founded the Rodale Institute and Prevention Magazine -- and who lived in the country, ate only organic food, and walked for miles every day in that lovely, fresh country air -- was hit by a truck and killed. So balance is the key. I'm not going to give up everything I like for an uncertain future, but I have balance in my life, with lots of veggies to counteract the occasional foie gras splurge, so I can enjoy the time I have now.

    The other thing that strikes me about this whole discussion about the growing obesity problem -- not just here but everywhere it is taking place, because it is taking place everywhere -- is that it seems that no one expected there to be side effects to the whole "if it feels good, do it" philosophy -- and ultimately, that's what the Big Gulp comes out of. We are not a people driven by a belief in self-denial and long-term results. Everyone wants what they want when they want it. Of course, this isn't new. The second story in the Bible, after the Creation, was Adam and Eve deciding to eat something they knew wasn't going to be good for them.
  • Post #33 - September 29th, 2006, 6:40 am
    Post #33 - September 29th, 2006, 6:40 am Post #33 - September 29th, 2006, 6:40 am
    Cynthia wrote:I think the biggest issue is not whether people are leading shorter lives, which they aren't, but rather that they hope to escape disease -- and, in some cases, even death. (As a French friend once said, only Americans think that death is optional.)

    The point I am trying to make is that, although we may have different health issues now than we had a century ago, we are, as a populace, living much longer and healthier lives. (And this is not really the place to get into the discussion of the complex causes of obesity and whether it actually is a "problem" or a matter of politics, Big Business interests and aesthetics.)

    Nobody is forced to eat french fries or drink Coca-Cola.

    Anyone who wishes to avoid them in hopes of a few more years in a geriatric ward has that choice. No one who chooses to eat them thinks they're health foods. But legislating away such choices is as abominable an intrusion into personal freedoms as forced calisthenics. It says that your body doesn't belong to you, but to the state.

    "Bend lower, please!"
  • Post #34 - September 29th, 2006, 9:07 am
    Post #34 - September 29th, 2006, 9:07 am Post #34 - September 29th, 2006, 9:07 am
    LAZ wrote: The point I am trying to make is that, although we may have different health issues now than we had a century ago, we are, as a populace, living much longer and healthier lives. (And this is not really the place to get into the discussion of the complex causes of obesity and whether it actually is a "problem" or a matter of politics, Big Business interests and aesthetics.)

    Nobody is forced to eat french fries or drink Coca-Cola.

    Anyone who wishes to avoid them in hopes of a few more years in a geriatric ward has that choice. No one who chooses to eat them thinks they're health foods. But legislating away such choices is as abominable an intrusion into personal freedoms as forced calisthenics. It says that your body doesn't belong to you, but to the state.


    We are not in the least bit of disagreement, actually. I was, as I noted, reacting to the entire thread, even though I quoted you specifically. My multitude of points included both affirmation of what you had said previously plus the observation that, despite what people think, being overweight is not necessarily a death sentence.

    I want health and nutrition information made available, by the government if necessary, but I don't want them telling me what I can and cannot eat. Of course, I'd also like to see them butt out of the health-food/alternative market, and make more of that information available to people, or at least permit its availability. Labelling is good, education is good, legislating food choice is not good.

    I want the information to eat healthfully when I so choose and I want the freedom to go out and eat foie gras and bacon when I so choose.
  • Post #35 - September 29th, 2006, 12:23 pm
    Post #35 - September 29th, 2006, 12:23 pm Post #35 - September 29th, 2006, 12:23 pm
    I should probably add that, in addition to reacting to this thread, I was also probabaly subconsciously reacting to a post on a different blog where someone had stated that people who are overweight are lazy slobs and should be herded into camps and made to lose weight. Clearly, if I disagree with the law limiting what we can eat, I would disagree with an action of this nature, but I also disagree that being overweight equates to laziness or slovenliness. Some of the most fabulously interesting, involved, active people I know have weight problems. I actually think there is a strong connection between joie de vivre and battling weight. So I was very pleased to see the university study that showed that overweight people can be healthy -- and the study that said that hostility is a risk factor, as the person posting the rant about how much she hated fat people clearly has hostility issues.
  • Post #36 - September 29th, 2006, 12:38 pm
    Post #36 - September 29th, 2006, 12:38 pm Post #36 - September 29th, 2006, 12:38 pm
    No one who chooses to eat them thinks they're health foods.


    I do know a number of vegetarians who eat french fries under the supposition that they're healthier than meat.

    Otherwise, I'd agree entirely - this is completely different from the smoking ban where when YOU smoke I get sick. Trans-fats don't seep in through skin or lungs; you have to choose to eat them for them to have negative effects.

    However, many people don't know just how bad they are or where they're hiding out, and I think that they have a right to be informed.
  • Post #37 - September 29th, 2006, 4:30 pm
    Post #37 - September 29th, 2006, 4:30 pm Post #37 - September 29th, 2006, 4:30 pm
    Mhays wrote:I do know a number of vegetarians who eat french fries under the supposition that they're healthier than meat.

    Well, potatoes are high in Vitamin C.

    How many Americans would get scurvy if it weren't for french fries?
  • Post #38 - September 29th, 2006, 6:00 pm
    Post #38 - September 29th, 2006, 6:00 pm Post #38 - September 29th, 2006, 6:00 pm
    LAZ wrote:Well, potatoes are high in Vitamin C.


    Apparently (after a quick google) so is chicken liver! :lol:

    Don't for a minute think I'm suggesting we ban french fries - All I'm saying is there should be a little sticker alerting the public to trans-fat use and its possible implications.

    I plan to keep on eating it, within reason. I like Crisco when the occasion calls for it. Let's not forget, for instance, that alcohol is actually a poison - but that's not stopping me from having the occasional glass of berry-infused vodka!
  • Post #39 - September 29th, 2006, 11:13 pm
    Post #39 - September 29th, 2006, 11:13 pm Post #39 - September 29th, 2006, 11:13 pm
    I'm lost. What is this "choice" people keep mentioning? Who here can introduce me to someone who walks up and down supermarket aisles checking ingredients lists for trans fats, turning down whatever doesn't?

    Some time ago, the antismoking lobby pointed out that the cigarette, used in the way it is intended, is the only product that harms its user. Trans-fat products can certainly be added to that list.

    Why aren't all the people here yammering about "choice" calling food manufacturers requesting more products without trans fats so consumers have one?
    --
    Never toss pizza dough in a kitchen with a ceiling fan.
  • Post #40 - September 30th, 2006, 12:23 am
    Post #40 - September 30th, 2006, 12:23 am Post #40 - September 30th, 2006, 12:23 am
    Bob S. wrote:I'm lost. What is this "choice" people keep mentioning? Who here can introduce me to someone who walks up and down supermarket aisles checking ingredients lists for trans fats, turning down whatever doesn't?

    Some time ago, the antismoking lobby pointed out that the cigarette, used in the way it is intended, is the only product that harms its user. Trans-fat products can certainly be added to that list.

    Why aren't all the people here yammering about "choice" calling food manufacturers requesting more products without trans fats so consumers have one?


    People are complaining, and the market is responding. Almost every aisle I walk down in the grocery store has products emblazoned with the word "no trans fats." And there are tons of products that never had transfats.

    Of course, cooking from scratch is always an option, too. Enjoy a roasted chicken and a tossed salad dressed with a nice olive oil dressing and you don't have any transfats.

    The choices are there.
  • Post #41 - September 30th, 2006, 8:15 am
    Post #41 - September 30th, 2006, 8:15 am Post #41 - September 30th, 2006, 8:15 am
    And I read the labels on the processed foods I choose for my family (tho I get annoyed when products like lollipops bear the label "no trans fats") If snack foods had a label similar to the ones cigarettes do, you'd bet people would make better choices. Imagine on a box of twinkies:

    This product contains trans-fats. Trans-fats have been linked to heart disease, cancer, diabetes, immune dysfunction, and obesity and reproductive problems and may have been linked to over 30,000 premature deaths a year

    But, as with my father-in-law who chose to smoke after an emphesema diagnosis, I think people have the right to choose their risks as long as they don't directly cause health risks to other people.
  • Post #42 - September 30th, 2006, 10:42 am
    Post #42 - September 30th, 2006, 10:42 am Post #42 - September 30th, 2006, 10:42 am
    Cynthia wrote:Of course, cooking from scratch is always an option, too. Enjoy a roasted chicken and a tossed salad dressed with a nice olive oil dressing and you don't have any transfats.

    The choices are there.

    Always? How many of those can you spread on your typical Illinois LINK Card? Are the supermarkets that would allow them to do that even in neighborhoods where LINK Card usage is more common? Can people, LINK Card users or not, stop in those supermarkets and prepare that luscious spread when they're working two jobs? Why is this discussion limited to us? We are not typical. Let's start with the socioeconomic factors that limit people's choices, and work from there, not talk about this as if it's not only a vacuum but only our vacuum.

    (I'm not going to, because even that is a red herring in this discussion. The only "choice" this New York law actually seems to affect is whether restaurants can "choose" to cook with it or not. Now, popular wisdom, which I think has some truth in this matter, says that too much of anything is a bad thing. But that isn't the question here. How much of a cooking medium now understood to be harmful is a good thing? And while it seems reasonable to draw philosophical distinctions between levels of government, levels I might agree with in a country that actually works, what is the role of local and regional government in protecting its members -- which is all of us -- when the federal goverment has stepped out of its role in this matter? This isn't news and it isn't a jibe at the current administration; documentation such as M. Nestle's "Food Politics" and E. Schlosser's "Fast Food Nation" certainly cover the trend well before this administration.)

    It's an odd bit of serendipity: Last night I was going through some old email inboxes cleaning out the fluff and found that this exact discussion happened about 2 1/2 years ago on the old LTH listserv. The same principals were railing about lifespan and choice as if correlation were causation. What I saved (then and now) is a very thoughtful and compassionate reply from someone who was pretty active there, not so much here these days.

    I decided against seeking permission to quote that email, because clearly some principals in this thread saw it then and what good did it do? (Those with archives can dig it out from 3/11/04.) But it did give me a better perspective on some people's agendas, and how some discussions about the public policies about the things we love become about, well, us.
    --
    Never toss pizza dough in a kitchen with a ceiling fan.
  • Post #43 - September 30th, 2006, 10:53 am
    Post #43 - September 30th, 2006, 10:53 am Post #43 - September 30th, 2006, 10:53 am
    Food made from scratch always costs less than processed food, so the "you don't care about poor people" doesn't fly. In fact, getting rid of transfats will raise prices, as the alternatives are all more costly.

    Because I'm self-employed, I often work two or more jobs at the same time, and yes, you can pop a chicken in the oven and go back to work and eat well without taking up more than a few minutes. And I have friends who have full-time jobs and are single moms with three or more kids and they still manage to turn out nice stews and roasts -- lots of crock-pot cookery, mind you -- but wholesome and nutritious. And how hard is it to make a tossed salad? The items I mentioned take up about 15 minutes of prep time.

    In fact, if you think about it, some of the world's tastiest foods come out of countries that have vastly less money and fewer resources than anyone living in this country.

    And remember, the reason companies are now using transfats is because a well-meaning government banned animals fats, the only other cheap alternative. How many small businesses are going to be out of business if this law passes? Starting a little storefront restaurant is a major access point to the American dream for people moving here. It is, in fact, primarily these people that I'm worried about -- all the mom and pop places, where the family lives upstars and grandma is in the back and the kids work the tables -- they are the ones who are going to be hardest hit by this law. How many small business do you want to see ruined? This law would have virtually no impact on my life at all, as I already avoid transfats and almost never eat at McDonalds. But these wonderful, hopeful people who have banked everything on building a life from mom's cooking skills will likely be overthrown. And I don't want to see that happen.
  • Post #44 - September 30th, 2006, 11:05 am
    Post #44 - September 30th, 2006, 11:05 am Post #44 - September 30th, 2006, 11:05 am
    Cynthia wrote:Because I'm self-employed, I often work two or more jobs at the same time, and yes, you can pop a chicken in the oven and go back to work and eat well without taking up more than a few minutes.


    What kind of chicken can you pop in the oven before going to an 8 hour shift at Walmart followed by an 8 hour shift cleaning offices? Sounds like the ultimate convenience food!

    I don't think many people making minimum wage are working from home, Cynthia.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #45 - September 30th, 2006, 12:21 pm
    Post #45 - September 30th, 2006, 12:21 pm Post #45 - September 30th, 2006, 12:21 pm
    Cynthia wrote:
    Food made from scratch always costs less than processed food, so the "you don't care about poor people" doesn't fly. In fact, getting rid of transfats will raise prices, as the alternatives are all more costly.


    Bob S. is right; we've had this discussion on the board before, and I certainly recall a debate about "choice," which has different impications, I think, depending on how much money you have at your disposal. I won't rehash my own arguments again, but will use someone else to take issue with Cynthia's statement above, namely Michael Pollan, author of The Botany of Desire, among other works. This is from a NY Times blog from May, 2006:

    Why Eating Well Is ‘Elitist’
    Categories: Food
    Thanks for all the great posts from readers — you’ve given me a lot to chew on, and there are many questions and comments I plan to address in future posts. But for today, I want to look briefly at the “elitism” issue raised by several of you. As you will see it also ties into the good question raised by Paul Stamler about whether consumer action — voting with your forks — is adequate to the task of changing the American way of eating.

    It is a fact that to eat healthily in this country — by which I mean consuming food that contributes both to the eater’s health as well as to the health of the environment — costs more than it does to eat poorly. Indeed, the rules of the game by which we eat create a situation in which it is actually rational to eat poorly.

    Let’s say you live on fixed income, and struggle to keep your family fed. When you go to the supermarket, you are, in effect, foraging for energy — calories — to keep your family alive. So what are you going to buy with your precious food dollar? Fresh produce? Or junk food?

    A 2004 article in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition by Adam Drewnowski and S.E. Specter offers some devastating answers. One dollar spent in the processed food section of the supermarket — the aisles in the middle of the store — will buy you 1200 calories of cookies and snacks. That same dollar spent in the produce section on the perimeter will buy you only 250 calories of carrots. Similarly, a dollar spent in the processed food aisles will buy you 875 calories of soda but only 170 calories of fruit juice. So if you’re in the desperate position of shopping simply for calories to keep your family going, the rational strategy is to buy the junk.

    Mr. Drewnowski explains that we are driven by our evolutionary inheritance to expend as little energy as possible seeking out as much food energy as possible. So we naturally gravitate to “energy-dense foods” — high-calorie sugars and fats, which in nature are rare and hard to find. Sugars in nature come mostly in the form of ripe fruit and, if you’re really lucky, honey; fats come in the form of meat, the getting of which requires a great expense of energy, making them fairly rare in the diet as well. Well, the modern supermarket reverses the whole caloric calculus: the most energy-dense foods are the easiest — that is, cheapest — ones to acquire. If you want a concise explanation of obesity, and in particular why the most reliable predictor of obesity is one’s income level, there it is.

    The question is, how did energy-dense foods become so much cheaper in the supermarket than they are in the state of nature? This is not a function of the free market. It is very simply a function of government policy: our farm policies subsidize the most energy-dense and least healthy calories in the supermarket. We write checks to farmers for every bushel of corn and soy they can grow, and partly as a result they grow vast quantities of the stuff, driving down the cost of the processed foods we make from those commodities. In effect, we’re subsidizing high-fructose corn syrup. And we’re not subsidizing the growing of carrots and broccoli. Put another way, our tax dollars are the reason that the cheapest calories in the market are the least healthy ones.

    That situation is a public problem and can be addressed only through public action — by rewriting the rules of the game by which we eat. We need farm policies that will somehow right this imbalance, so that healthy calories can compete with unhealthy ones — so that it becomes rational for someone with little to spend on food to buy the carrots instead of the cookies, the orange juice instead of the Sprite. Until that happens, eating well will remain “elitist.”
    ToniG
  • Post #46 - September 30th, 2006, 12:45 pm
    Post #46 - September 30th, 2006, 12:45 pm Post #46 - September 30th, 2006, 12:45 pm
    Of course, the point you're ignoring is that we are not talking about making it possible for people who have less money to eat better. We are talking about passing a law that will make food more expensive and make it less likely they'll be able to eat as well.

    As for the chicken dish, obviously, you don't put it in the oven and leave for 16 hours. But even people who work more than one job spend some time at home. You have to do laundry sometime. If you cook two at the same time, you can freeze one to eat later. (And while I am at home on occasion -- not everyone who is self-employed has the luxury of hanging around the house -- the single moms I mentioned work entirely outside the house. And I have a friend who only earned $9,000 last year, and she still managed to eat healthfully.)

    And for the record, here's the fastest, easiest chicken dish I know (and it's just great) :

    Lemon Chicken
    a lemon
    a chicken
    some garlic salt

    Preheat oven to 450°. Wash the chicken thoroughly. Sprinkle both the body and neck cavities liberally with garlic salt. Cut the lemon in half and stick the halves inside the chicken. (If it’s a tight fit, have the pointy, skin side of the lemon sticking out, not the juicy, cut side.)

    Put the chicken in a roasting pan and place in the oven, uncovered. Reduce heat immediately to 350° and roast for about 18-20 minutes per pound, until juices run clear when chicken’s skin is pierced. When it’s done, remove the lemon from inside and serve alongside the chicken. Serve with buttered rice and steamed veggies. Unless you’re really busy, and then you can just rip off a drumstick, squeeze a little of the lemon over it, and get back to work. Serves 2-4. Enjoy.
  • Post #47 - September 30th, 2006, 4:35 pm
    Post #47 - September 30th, 2006, 4:35 pm Post #47 - September 30th, 2006, 4:35 pm
    Bob S. wrote:Always? How many of those can you spread on your typical Illinois LINK Card? Are the supermarkets that would allow them to do that even in neighborhoods where LINK Card usage is more common?

    Last I knew, they didn't take LINK at restaurants, even fast-food places, so that's highly irrelevant to a discussion of whether such establishments should be banned from using hydrogenated vegetable fat.

    ToniG wrote:
    Michael Pollan, NY Times blog from May, 2006 wrote:Why Eating Well Is ‘Elitist’

    One dollar spent in the processed food section of the supermarket — the aisles in the middle of the store — will buy you 1200 calories of cookies and snacks. That same dollar spent in the produce section on the perimeter will buy you only 250 calories of carrots. Similarly, a dollar spent in the processed food aisles will buy you 875 calories of soda but only 170 calories of fruit juice. So if you’re in the desperate position of shopping simply for calories to keep your family going, the rational strategy is to buy the junk.

    You're too poor, ignorant or time-pressed to read food labels and worry about whether what you eat is healthful but you can do cost-per-calorie analysis?

    This is even more irrelevant to the banning of trans-fats. I'm all for government farm policy that would make healthful food choices more readily available at affordable prices.

    Banning trans-fats doesn't do that.

    Further, because many of the so-called healthful alternatives to Crisco and other hydrogenated polyunsaturated fats tend to compromise flavor and shelf life, restaurants and food manufacturers who want to retain customers may well go back to using their pre-trans-fat recipes, full of the "poison" saturated fats that do-gooder Phil Sokolof railed against 30 years ago. (Sokolof's tireless efforts on behalf of America's health are the primary reason so many food companies switched to trans-fats from tropical oils and animal fats -- which weren't banned, just shunned.)

    What then? Do you ban butter, palm oil, beef tallow and lard?

    ___________________
    LAZ
    "By that time, eating will have become unmentionable. Pictures of food will be considered rare and curious, and only collected by rude old gentlemen."
  • Post #48 - October 1st, 2006, 12:11 am
    Post #48 - October 1st, 2006, 12:11 am Post #48 - October 1st, 2006, 12:11 am
    ToniG wrote:
    Why Eating Well Is ‘Elitist’
    Categories: Food
    It is a fact that to eat healthily in this country — by which I mean consuming food that contributes both to the eater’s health as well as to the health of the environment — costs more than it does to eat poorly. Indeed, the rules of the game by which we eat create a situation in which it is actually rational to eat poorly.

    Let’s say you live on fixed income, and struggle to keep your family fed. When you go to the supermarket, you are, in effect, foraging for energy — calories — to keep your family alive. So what are you going to buy with your precious food dollar? Fresh produce? Or junk food?


    By eating well, I'm assuming the writer was speaking of nutritional value, and not splendor of the repast. In that case, this is all hooey. You can eat fabulously for virtually no money at all if you focus on wholesome but inexpensive foods. Potatoes contain all the protein and Vitamin C you need, and almost the entire national of Ireland lived on them for a couple hundred years. Even today, sweet potatoes make up about 80 percent of the diet in New Guinea. These both are cheap and can be prepared myriad ways that are easy and fast. And anyone who is desparately trying to get enough calories to keep their families alive can probably supplement what they buy with stuff from a bank (a nice little piece of cheese to melt on that baked potato, perhaps). And then there are beans and rice. One can cook an incredible number of great dishes from beans and rice. I could feed a family of four for the cost of a package of cookies. I once went for a whole year (while between jobs) on nothing but potatoes, beans, and rice. And there are entire countries that eat this way.

    And if history has taught us anything, it's that people eat sugar because people like sugar. It gives you that little rush of pleasure. And I don't begrudge those who are poor that little pleasure. But no one buys cookies because it's cheaper than wholesome food -- unless they are terribly ignorant of nutrition. In which case, we get back to what I said about the government being responsible for making sure people are informed of their choices.

    But as LAZ points out so correctly, none of this has anything to do with a ban on restaurants using transfats. The impact of that ban will be on the small mom and pop restaurants, not on the mother who's searching for calories at the local grocery store.
  • Post #49 - October 1st, 2006, 11:37 am
    Post #49 - October 1st, 2006, 11:37 am Post #49 - October 1st, 2006, 11:37 am
    I don't want to beat a dead horse, and this topic has been debated on this board earlier -- in 2005, under the heading "Salt: More Junk Science from the Food Nannies." But there is no end of support for the notion that eating a healthy diet in this country is much easier if you are affluent, for numerous reasons, among others that providing meals for your family involves not just composing an ingredient list, but having the time and ability to obtain the necessary ingredients. The Chicago Tribune from July, 2006, reported on this study:

    For African-Americans who live in "food deserts" on Chicago's South and West Sides, where fast-food restaurants are plentiful and grocery stores are scarce, a lack of choices is more than an inconvenience. A provocative new study from the University of Michigan concludes that residents are more likely to die prematurely from diabetes, cancer and other ailments.

    More than half a million Chicagoans live in food deserts, the study finds, and about 400,000 live in areas with an imbalance of food choices, meaning that residents often find it more difficult to eat an apple instead of a candy bar, a salad instead of French fries.

    On average, blacks travel the farthest distance to any type of grocery store--.59 miles compared with the city average of .45 miles--and their low-access neighborhoods cluster on the South and West Sides.

    In a typical African-American block, the nearest grocery store is about twice as far as the nearest fast-food restaurant, which makes following dietary recommendations more difficult for the 521,000 who live in the 287 worst grocery-store-access tracts, the report said.

    People who live in food deserts are more likely to die prematurely and at greater rates from diabetes, cancer, cardiovascular disease and obesity, according to the study, which also tabulated years of potential life lost.

    And in general, as grocery store access decreases, obesity increases, the study found.

    Chicago Health Commissioner Dr. Terry Mason wondered, however, if other factors besides physical distance to grocery stores explain dire health outcomes for blacks, including access to quality health care and cultural differences.

    "Whether you have a PhD from Harvard or you were a high-school dropout, in most African-American families on Sunday everybody is eating the same thing," said Mason, who is black. "We have a pattern of eating that contributes to diseases."

    Adam Drewnowski, director of the Nutritional Science Program at the University of Washington, who has studied why obesity affects mostly minorities and the poor, said the health disparities cannot be separated from economic inequity. Though he had not read the report, he said he suspects it suffers from what he dubs the "Chernobyl model of nutrition"--a model that would suggest mere proximity to McDonald's means people will be obese and diabetic, while living nearer to Whole Foods would make people healthy.

    "Physical access, I suspect, is not as important as economic distance," Drewnowski said. "The issue of economic distance is trickier to handle. Higher minimum wage? Health insurance? What do you do?"

    Courtesy of the Chicago Tribune


    And it simply isn't true that eliminating trans fats means that food costs will go up: for one thing, enormously profitable corporations, like our food conglomerates, always have a choice when costs rise: they can pass those costs on to the consumer or they can take less in profit. But it's quite debatable whether a ban on trans fats will really necessitate an increase in costs: see today's NY Times:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/weekinreview/01basic.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

    But I’ll concur with those who oppose the NY trans fat ban in this sense, in that I agree with Michael Pollan’s point at the end of the blog I quoted above. For our food habits to change in a major way, we need to effect major shifts in our food and agricultural policies at a national level. Even our food preferences are shaped by government policies, and our taste for sugar, in fact, is a case in point: see Sidney Mintz’s essential work Sweetness and Power if you have any doubts.
    ToniG
  • Post #50 - October 1st, 2006, 11:56 am
    Post #50 - October 1st, 2006, 11:56 am Post #50 - October 1st, 2006, 11:56 am
    Cynthia wrote:How many small businesses are going to be out of business if this law passes?

    Hey, I'm not the one who brought up choice. If some small businessperson chose to feed his or her customers with the cheapest possible ingredients, chose to keep using a cooking medium that's harmful over the long term even after the issue became well-known, chose to focus on his or her own short-term profits rather than the long-term health (and thus patronage) of customers, that person just may have to make some abrupt choices once a government says that ingredient shouldn't be used. That small businessperson is certainly going to choose to continue to use the cheapest available ingredient, even if it may have been the second cheapest ingredient before. That person will probably also choose to raise prices to cover costs. If that outfit's customers see those new prices and choose to go elsewhere, that's the free market in action. (But those customers are probably smarter than that, since a unilateral action affects the entire market. The only issue will be how much each establishment chose to raise prices, and that still only affects customers who have no loyalty to their preferred establishments whatsoever but buy only at the cheapest available location. Most places will just follow the great American tradition of passing the costs along and enthusiastically joining the customer in complaining about it.) But said small businessperson could have chosen to make the change and absorb the costs much earlier, and perhaps could even have chosen to promote the change to gain customers who choose to eat healthier, thus gaining a market advantage.
    The seeming responses to my earlier points generally changed my questions so that the answers covered the ground the repondents wanted to, not the ground I asked about, so there's no point in my restating them. But I did get a chuckle of out of LAZ's ability to make the same point I made, reframed to make me sound like an idiot. I'm out of this one, LAZ; have at me.
    --
    Never toss pizza dough in a kitchen with a ceiling fan.
  • Post #51 - October 1st, 2006, 12:24 pm
    Post #51 - October 1st, 2006, 12:24 pm Post #51 - October 1st, 2006, 12:24 pm
    LTH,

    Round 10 Bell has rung, a draw has been declared.

    Thread is locked.

    Enjoy,
    Gary for the moderators.
    One minute to Wapner.
    Raymond Babbitt

    Low & Slow

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