stevez wrote:(guess which other burger documentarian George Motz also considers the best in Illinois)

Wow. That is kind of... odd. I wouldn't have thought that vaguely beef flavored kaiser rolls were eligible for a Best Burger list.

That's probably harsher than it should be, but I always thought Billy Goat's was much more about the digs, the legend and Belushi than it was about the burger. Maybe I didn't get enough patties to balance the bread/beef ratio. It would certainly explain the high pressure upsell.

Incidentally, I think a Billy Goat burger is the only thing I've ever tasted that was actually BETTER at the Taste of Chicago.

You certainly need to get at least a double, if not the triple, to properly balance the Kaiser roll (which I actually do enjoy). The best part of the burger for me is piling on the thickly-cut pickles slices of raw onion.

I think most of the better fast-food burgers here actually come from hot dog stands. Weiner's Circle, to name another besides those mentioned upthread. And you know who makes a damn tasty fast-food burger? Portillo's does. And I don't really care for much of their other stuff.

Or Superdawg. Or Muskie's. Tends to prove that quality places do a quality job generally (within the expectations of their price point). Heck, I even liked Gold Coast Dogs' burger back in the day (I have no idea about the quality or ownership of the outlets of this chain these days, but it was the Hot Doug's of the late 80s/early 90s in terms of standing above the average dog stand).

Still, we have hot dog places that do good burgers too, we don't have nearly so many first-class burger places-- that's definitely unusual in the USA c. 2007.

Don't know if it still exists -- but they did the best burger in Chicago, 1/2 pounder grilled over fire, served on black bread w/onion, tomato etc -- near Milwaukee and Foster

SGFoxe wrote:Don't know if it still exists -- but they did the best burger in Chicago, 1/2 pounder grilled over fire, served on black bread w/onion, tomato etc -- near Milwaukee and Foster

The only thing remotely near that intersection is King's Gyros. I doubt that's the place you are referring to.

JeffB wrote:I think most of the better fast-food burgers here actually come from hot dog stands. Weiner's Circle, to name another besides those mentioned upthread. And you know who makes a damn tasty fast-food burger? Portillo's does. And I don't really care for much of their other stuff.

I think you, and a few other, may have missed my point. So let me try again. You can compete and make a nice living in fast food without a decent burger because this is a hot dog town. But setup shop in an area where hot dogs aren't as popular as they are here and you better make a decent burger because that will be the most popular fast food item you sell.

Just look at all the national fast food franchises. What was the first? McDonalds. Then came Burger King. You can also add to the current list Hardees/Carl Jr., Culvers, Wendys, Steak & Shake, Checkers and probably more that I'm not thinking of. Now, name a national fast food hot dog chain.

There's about 300 Wienerschnitzels, which is more than there are Steak and Shakes or Culvers, I'd bet. (Who knew? But they're all over California, apparently. Never been in one myself.)

That said, of course you're right about the general dominance of burger chains, though I'm not sure folks were missing your point so much as just making a somewhat different one. But there is a sort of sense that hamburgers are still entirely contemporary food, while hot dogs give off a slight old-timey Americana whiff. Guess that's why they're served at baseball games and movie theaters, which also trade on a vague air that the high point in history was reached in about 1936 and it's been downhill ever since...

Mike G wrote:There's about 300 Wienerschnitzels, which is more than there are Steak and Shakes

There are officially 477 Steak 'n Shakes.

Mike G wrote:But there is a sort of sense that hamburgers are still entirely contemporary food, while hot dogs give off a slight old-timey Americana whiff.

I disagree with that. On the East Coast, for example, hot dogs are very much everyday street food.

There are also quite a few Nathan's Famous, including several in Kuwait.

And oh for the day Five Guys continues its expansion and makes it to Chicago. Pittsburgh is the closest current location.

Dang, they've been opening Steak and Shakes, haven't they?

But what about A&W?

hot dogs give off a slight old-timey Americana whiff.

I disagree with that. On the East Coast, for example, hot dogs are very much everyday street food.

The East Coast gives off a slight old-timey Americana whiff, too. Whaling's over, get over it! The future belongs to incandescence!

P.S. There's a Wendy's commercial on as I post this that has a Violent Femmes song as its background music. Hamburgers are so happening.

Mike G wrote:Dang, they've been opening Steak and Shakes, haven't they?

I guess so. Although founded in Illinois, Steak 'n Shake has been headquartered in my hometown of Indianapolis for many years now. And they have 20 (that's right, twenty) locations just in the city limits of Indianapolis (with another 7 or 8 in the suburbs). (Per capita, that would mean Steak 'n Shake would need to open about 75 stores in Chicago to have the same coverage.) In my lifetime, I've watched Steak 'n Shake deteriorate from a truly great 30s-style burger joint, to a corporate-profits driven simulacrum of same, back to something like the original -- but only if you hit it in one of the traditional strongholds. For years, i couldn't understand why Steak 'n Shake couldn't infiltrate the Chicago market. Then they did, and I was disappointed. The Steak 'n Shakes that have opened around Chicago (the first one I tried was in Gurnee) have universally disappointed. But when, on the odd occasion, I eat in a Steak 'n Shake in Indianapolis or in the South (where they thrive), it's a different experience. Why? It's supposed to be a "system," so they all ought to be the same. Still, I'd rather eat at Kewpies any day.

Same thing with Sonic-- I'd bet there were only about 20 of them at one point, then they shot up to a few hundred with a new owner and capital. I know they came up in another thread so I'll just say, burgers and fries okay, about on par with Checkers or something, but the cherry limeade kicks ass, go have an okay burger just to have something for the cherry limeade to wash down.

Kind of off-topic and a long-shot , I remember watching a visa (or was it master?) commercial last year where a guy finishes off a burger twice as big as his head and gets a round of applause from the other patrons, anyone know where that was shot?

midas wrote:

JeffB wrote:I think most of the better fast-food burgers here actually come from hot dog stands. Weiner's Circle, to name another besides those mentioned upthread. And you know who makes a damn tasty fast-food burger? Portillo's does. And I don't really care for much of their other stuff.

I think you, and a few other, may have missed my point. So let me try again.

No, I was responding to Mike.

I don't know if I fully understand the post that started this thread. However, I think Chicago is a great burger town. The main reason is beause of the quality cheap burger you can find at many of the hot dog joints you find in Chicago. There is a simple reason why these burgers are in my opinion better than most in LA and it is because the are: charbroiled. Thats all. I would take the charburgers at places like (Weiner Circle, Irvings, Portillos, Paradise Pup, Mustard's Last Stand, Muskie's and Poochies) anyday over the countless traditional LA burger joints that do everything right but NEVER charbroil their burgers and for some reason never offer cheddar. Every city that has steakhouses will in general have some good high-end burgers. It's the hot dog stands that char their burgers that make Chicago a no-doubt-it great burger town.

Two different animals entirely, to be sure, but I'd say that the Portillo's char cheddar-burger is tied with the In-N-Out Double-Double as the best fast-food burger in the country. Mind you, I still haven't eaten at some of the other regionals (Five Guys in the mid-Atlantic states, Burgerville in the Portland area, or even Tommy's in LA) but Portillo's is tough to beat. I'd like to hear from people in southern California who regularly have access to both the In-N-Out and Portillo's burgers and can tell me how they compare side by side.

I, too, am disappointed with the general quality of the fast food burgers in Chicago. It's tough to find a place not higher-end that pays attention to the meat (not frozen patty) and bread (fresh, not three day old Gonnella/Turano or worse). Kuma's burger is excellent but $10 at a bar and grill--it feels wrong. I may have been spoiled by the quality of the fast food burgers in my hometown of Rochester, NY, where a number of local franchises compete at offering a pretty large hand-formed, char-grilled burger on a fresh, substantial roll.

But I am grateful to have found Steak & Shake double cheeseburgers, a style of burger I'd never tried before moving to Chicago. If I really feel like a fast food type burger, I'll drive to Evanston for one of those.

Vital Information wrote:It was only about a month ago that the family and I ate at the Top Notch in Oak Lawn. No decline at all. Just top notch, and the fries were beyond top notch. On that day (night) at least, they could have been the best fries in Chicago. Better than Gene and Judes, better than Jimmy's, better than any too skinny frite around, better.

My only regret: between the bitter cold and too much food already that day, I could not muster the trip across the street for a turtle sundae at Cupid Candies.

Its been a few months since I last ate at Top Notch (ate half a dozen or
more burgers there last summer, though)... but even so, I'll agree with the
above.

The burger was decent to me, never great. But the fries were, by far, the
best Ive had in the Chicagoland area. Bar none. Consistently the best -
there was one time they were ordinary, once not *great*, the rest (4-5
times maybe), better than any other Ive had in the city. Fresh-cut, piping hot,
crispy outside, creamy inside, perfection.

Ive eaten mostly at the 95th street Beverly location, not Oaklawn... but even
so, I dont regret missing out on Cupid Candies. I always just get the
large shake at Top Notch instead (I go with a vanilla malt, usually), which
IMHO may be the best vanilla malt in the city as well. Again, freshly shaken,
and comes in the metal cup so you can pour it out yourself (and, after
youve poured out a tall large glass, there is invariably another half-glass
left over at least, which is especially nice

To EvilUs... those are 2 great reasons to go. The burger may not be the
greatest - its always been reasonably good for me, but not the best in
town. But the fries and shake IMHO *are* the best in town, and reason
enough by themselves to freqent Top Notch IMHO.

As for Chicago not being a great burger town in general.. Iam not sure Id
entirely agree, but then Iam not really a "30s style burger" guy anyway,
I'd much rather have a 1/4 or 1/3rd lb patty (or even a 1/2 lb, if cooked
right). And I dont neccesarily care that much for the burnt ends of the
thin patties - which is why Ive never been that taken with Culver's
burger, for example (I always stop in there for their frozen custard,
however). But I'll agree with Chicagostyledog even on scant evidence -
WI probably has us beat, on burgers. Ive tried Kewpee's, and it was
an excellent burger (and a very good value); the burger at ...um. blanking
on the name, place in Milwaukee, very old demographic, across from a
Leon's custard stand... anyway, they had a very very good burger
too And Ive had burgers about 3 different times at Todd's Grille in
Oconomowoc, and each one has been better than any burger Ive
ever consumed in Chicago by a ways, IMHO, quite amazingly
outstanding cheeseburgers, those are. (Todd's was the most
"expensive" of any of the WI burgers, and about 7 bucks including
the soup and fries and a 1/2 lb burger, they all fit well under the
"8 buck cutoff" MikeG IIRC imposed to start the thread

So, maybe not a *great* burger town... but with places like Paradise
Pup around still offering 4-buck cheeseburgers, surely there is still
plenty of hope? (And Weiner and Still Champion, and Poochie's - 2 stands
about a mile apart, both offering excellent burgers too, neither with
any Time-Out-Chicago love).

c8w

P.S. There's a Wendy's commercial on as I post this that has a Violent Femmes song as its background music. Hamburgers are so happening.

Coulda sworn I read somewhere that Violent Femmes are the new Mel Torme.

Mike G wrote:P.S. There's a Wendy's commercial on as I post this that has a Violent Femmes song as its background music. Hamburgers are so happening.

Am I the only one somewhat disturbed by a fast-food advertisement with a bunch of teenage boys slinging greasy burgers to the tune of Blister in the Sun?

It's wrong, just wrong... do people even check what the song is about before using it in a commercial?

I will add one more thing, while I am merely meh about the hamburger experience in Chicago (I've never been wowed by Top Notch, but I've only been to the Oak Lawn one, and have made periodic visits there over the last fifteen years), I do have a soft spot for the Southwest Side's other contribution to the Chicago hamburger scene, the Big Baby, and all its greasy, sloppy, oniony goodness. This is one burger that I prefer fried to charbroiled.

JimTheBeerGuy wrote:It's wrong, just wrong... do people even check what the song is about before using it in a commercial?

Not since The Stooges started shilling for cruise lines.

Coulda sworn I read somewhere that the Stooges are the new Peter, Paul & Mary...

Anyway, shouldn't be surprised if Jello Biafra is used for the upcoming 1/3 pound Angus burger McDonald's has just unveiled...

stewed coot wrote:Anyway, shouldn't be surprised if Jello Biafra is used for the upcoming 1/3 pound Angus burger McDonald's has just unveiled...

Hopefully the 1/3 Angus Burger makes its way here. Currently being test marketed on the west coast and at $3.99. Must be a good burger.

Imagine how good it would be if McD's charged $4.50!
Aw, just kiddin'-I'm sure it will be a tasty bastard, and probably at the top of it's ilk.

Before I launch into my essay on burger-ation, did someone miss the fact that BK commercials are supposed to be upsetting? Weird images, inappropriate music, it is all part of it. Admirable in its own way.

I have tried to avoid this thread since I know I do not belong here - I enjoy hamburgers more than pizza, but feel that even the most humble sausage offers so much more than a burger. I could go on about that, but I will not.

Having said that, what makes a place a great burger town? What makes a great burger, even? There is some discussion that a great burger town is defined as a place where every corner fast food joint offers a cheap, tasty burger, but what is a tasty burger? And how many such places does a town need to be a great burger town?

There are passing comments that the problem, if there is one, is that so few places offer fresh hamburger, or that so few places broil their burgers, or....????

So let me deconstruct, with minimal bias since there is no sentimental, childhood ur-burger whose vision I cling to, no dimly remembered burger grail I am chasing. Sure, there are some burgers I like, but they are not one style or type - I like In-N-Out, Portillo's, Big Babies, among others. But it is very, very rare that I go looking for any of these.

A great burger is about, like all things food, ingredients, technique and taste. In theory, of course, even if the technique and ingredients are inferior, it can all come together to provide wonderful taste and an exquisite experience - unlikely, but not unheard of.

The ingredients start with a good beef patty with recognizable and pleasant beefy taste. It should have the right amount of fat to deliver a tender result and convey that beefy taste, but not so much that it comes out unpleasantly greasy (technique plays here, too, more on that below). In my experience, it is not so critical that the patty be fresh or frozen - In-N-Out makes a fine burger from a fresh patty, while Portillo's does the same with a frozen one. If I am correct, Wendy's makes a lousy burger from a fresh patty, while Mickey D's achieves the same with a frozen one.

The next most important ingredient is the bun. It should be a pleasant piece of bread, serving both the functional purpose of holding the darned thing together, as well as being the yang to the greasy, fatty, yin of most of the rest of the burger components - some good, sturdy starch to balance it all out. Most fast food burgers offer lousy bread, apparently intended to serve the structural purpose only. Bland bread, ever so slightly sweet, no recognizable yeast flavor or textural component. Wonder bread in a circle.

The nadir for most burgers is the tomato, followed closely by the chunk or strips of iceberg lettuce. These are things you would discard in almost any other circumstance. They add moisture, a touch of texture, and some bulk. No good flavor, if any flavor at all.

The pickles add flavor, a touch of vinegary tang to complement the salty greasiness of the rest of the burger. Usually not the best pickles, but in more than a few burgers the pickles are the only piece I would care to eat on its own.

Ketchup is most often sweet and simple. Mayo is the worst quality, fatty and awful (have I said that I think mayonaise is a curse on the palates of the world? I should have. There is such a thing as good mayo, and a proper place to use it, but both are terribly rare). Mustard, if used, is the simple, tart, salad version.

Cheese, like the bun, can add so much, but usually does not. Rather than real cheese with flavor, we get bland American cheese, melted on to add fat (!) and more importantly mouth-feel, but no flavor.

Technique comes into play in the cooking of the burger and assembly. The burger should be browned of course, and I like a touch of crispiness. Most lousy burgers fail on this and the quality of the beef. They start with tasteless beef, cook it badly, and end up with grey, denatured, protein. Proper cooking can enhance the patty - lower fat works better on a griddled, maybe even with some oil added - higher fat content, and thicker burgers, should be broiled or grilled (charcoal not countertop).

Assembly needs to balance all the ingredients to deliver a balanced flavor and a structurally functional burger.

Taste is, of course, subjective. Some like the slippery patty melt, simple, greasy, higlighting fat, salt and browing of all the components, bread, onions, cheese. Others like the In-N-Out style, a central core of crispy burger, surrounded by a salad of fresh ingredients. To me, it makes no difference - there is no one style I prefer. All I look for is a well-prepard burger, though I do want browned meat, ideally with that crispiness.

So, is it a good burger town if it offers a range of styles, done well? Or one style, generally pretty decent, widely available? What difference does it make? None, I think, though I know the original question has stimulated some interesting discussion.

Here is what I would like to know.

What makes a really good burger for you? And what place or places deliver that best?

I like burgers okay at Johnny's in Lisle (which is similar in style to), Portillo's, In-N-Out. I want to like the burgers at some of the fancier places more than I really do like them. Country House for example. Usually the beef just is not as good as they appear to think it is and the whole thing is underseasoned and not as browned as I would like, but I keep trying whenever I find myself there.

I should go on a burger tour, but the hot dog is so much more interesting. Would you eat a hamburger patty on its own? I would not. Would you eat a hot dog, or any sausage really, all by itself. Absolutely. For me that is the point - you can dress up a burger and have something enjoyable, but at its core, it is a pretty boring preparation of a lousy piece of meat, dressed up to compensate for that.

So I can't say whether Chicago is a great burger town, since I do not know what that means. But I think I know a good burger when I see and taste one.

This thread was enough to convert me from lurker to poster, this topic is something I've often pondered as well. In my opinion, Wisconsin and LA are both better burger areas than Chicago. Someone else has already mentioned the burger joints in Wisconsin and I agree that for the most part, they are much better than Chicago. Georgie Porgie's is another one worth checking out when in that area.

No doubt Chicago has its share of great restaurant burgers (the $8 and up burgers in fancy sit down joints), but it surprises me there aren't a lot more good fast food burgers. One thing I've been wishing for in Chicago is an In N Out knock off. In Manhattan there's a burger place called Blue 9 Burger which is literally an In N Out ripoff. Same small menu, same toppings and special sauce, same way your orders are called out, "Guest number 10 please." It's the closet thing I've found outside California.

I also agree on the lack of great 30's style burgers. The closet I've found is an el cheapo frozen patty at a Greek place with 200 menu items, but now I've got a few places to try. I've never found a place better than the Dick's Drive In chain in Washington. They did it right, everything is old fashioned there and the most expensive burger is $2.

That said--there are indeed great fast food burger joints here. I live close to Muskie's and can't imagine my life without the occasional cheddar burger. Wiener's Circle and Paradise Pup are also worthwhile mentions. If I ever moved away from Chicago, I'm sure I'd miss Billy Goat too. Once Culver's makes it into Chicago proper, I'll be a happy man.