Note to menu writers: please lay off the quotation marks

Is it just me, or is anybody else "bothered" by restaurantdom's gratuitous use and abiding "fondness" for quotation marks around "particular" words or even "phrases"? I don't know if this happens as a "direct" result of functional illiteracy, or is some kind of "attempt" to provide "emphasis" or "importance" to what's being propounded. But what may be intended as a "positive" spin often has a different effect, such as in these few real-life "examples" I've "seen" over the years......

We "reserve" the right to serve anybody.

Our chili is "homemade."

We ask that "customers" kindly refrain from smoking.

All burgers are cooked "medium."

We are not "responsible" for items left in the checkroom.

"Today's" Special is__________.



Perhaps you've seen others you want to share.

It's more than just the punctuation marks that are overused. It's the random bolding and italicization as well. I love Naha,but their Menu is so ridiculously punctuated and emphasized as to make the descriptions more confusing than clear.

Olde School wrote:Is it just me, or is anybody else "bothered" by restaurantdom's gratuitous use and abiding "fondness" for quotation marks around "particular" words or even "phrases"?

I see this all the time and it drives me nuts. I can be a bit of a punctuation/grammar policeman from time to time and this is high on my list of frequent offenses. I'm not sure when quotes became appropriate for usage as emphasis, but many restaurants seem to think they are.

Whenever I pass by a sign with mis-used quotes I always wonder if they're really trying to tell me that the "fresh" bread or the "fast" delivery really isn't so fresh or fast.

Best,
Michael

Yes, we should start separate threads on exclamation point addictions, italics fetishes and sociopathic font bolding.

Olde School wrote:Yes, we should start separate threads on exclamation point addictions, italics fetishes and sociopathic font bolding.

Agreed!!

Ugh...overuse of quotation marks for emphasis...feh...

There are, however, two ways to look at gratuitous punctuation: one is, that yes, sure, there's got to be some form of illiteracy at work(or willful ignorance).

Another(and I count myself in this school)...is that in order to capture the vagaries and rhythms of colloquial speech(to make things conversational, perhaps) one must torque the deployment of traditional syntax. I want the sentence to screech.

Thomas Keller is the master of the unnecessary quotation marks. I love the man's food, but the menus are damn near impossible to read. This was my favorite from a past meal at Per Se:

Snake River Farm's "Calotte de Boeuf Grillee", "Wagyu" Beef Brisket "Hachis Parmentier", Black Trumpet Mushroom "Duxelles" and "Haricots Verts" with "Sauce Bordelaise"

I mean, come on.

jesteinf wrote:Thomas Keller is the master of the unnecessary quotation marks. I love the man's food, but the menus are damn near impossible to read. This was my favorite from a past meal at Per Se:

Snake River Farm's "Calotte de Boeuf Grillee", "Wagyu" Beef Brisket "Hachis Parmentier", Black Trumpet Mushroom "Duxelles" and "Haricots Verts" with "Sauce Bordelaise"

I mean, come on.

If he intends to be emphasizing the non-English words (which seems to be the case), I believe the proper convention (at least in other types of writing) would be to do so in italics. That, I could understand. The use of quotes connotes to me that the things in quotes are ersatz.

jesteinf wrote:Thomas Keller is the master of the unnecessary quotation marks. I love the man's food, but the menus are damn near impossible to read. This was my favorite from a past meal at Per Se:

Snake River Farm's "Calotte de Boeuf Grillee", "Wagyu" Beef Brisket "Hachis Parmentier", Black Trumpet Mushroom "Duxelles" and "Haricots Verts" with "Sauce Bordelaise"

I mean, come on.

Although I've never been to a Thomas Keller restuarant (save the bistro in Vegas) but it's been implied here that Naha's menu writer is apparently a devotee of the Saint Thomas of Napa church of menu writing. If that's the case, that's unfortunate.

Matt wrote:

jesteinf wrote:Thomas Keller is the master of the unnecessary quotation marks. I love the man's food, but the menus are damn near impossible to read. This was my favorite from a past meal at Per Se:

Snake River Farm's "Calotte de Boeuf Grillee", "Wagyu" Beef Brisket "Hachis Parmentier", Black Trumpet Mushroom "Duxelles" and "Haricots Verts" with "Sauce Bordelaise"

I mean, come on.

If he intends to be emphasizing the non-English words (which seems to be the case), I believe the proper convention (at least in other types of writing) would be to do so in italics. That, I could understand. The use of quotes connotes to me that the things in quotes are ersatz.

Well, that would make sense (that items is quotes would be not quite what they are described as) and that's what I thought when I read the menu. But, after eating the meal, the "Haricots Verts" were simply haricots verts.

Slightly off topic, but get a load of this sentence from a thank-you note I recently received (recipient is a school teacher, by the way):

Thank you for the nice gift and coming to Eric and I's wedding.

I know people have trouble with it's and its, and don't know the difference between a subject and an object, but this one was so bad I don't even know where to begin, except to say oy.

Olde School wrote:Slightly off topic, but get a load of this sentence from a thank-you note I recently received (recipient is a school teacher, by the way):

Thank you for the nice gift and coming to Eric and I's wedding.

I know people have trouble with it's and its, and don't know the difference between a subject and an object, but this one was so bad I don't even know where to begin, except to say oy.

Further off-topic -- at least you got a thank-you note.

You're all so right; those of us who are writers by trade have to live by the grammar and style rules that restaurants routinely ignore. And don't get me started on sloppy misspellings like "principal" and "principle" -- but I'll forgive this Dubai restaurant English translation because I'm more interested in exactly what is being served between the salmon and the venison courses . . .



>>Brent

jesteinf wrote:

Matt wrote:

jesteinf wrote:Thomas Keller is the master of the unnecessary quotation marks. I love the man's food, but the menus are damn near impossible to read. This was my favorite from a past meal at Per Se:

Snake River Farm's "Calotte de Boeuf Grillee", "Wagyu" Beef Brisket "Hachis Parmentier", Black Trumpet Mushroom "Duxelles" and "Haricots Verts" with "Sauce Bordelaise"

I mean, come on.

If he intends to be emphasizing the non-English words (which seems to be the case), I believe the proper convention (at least in other types of writing) would be to do so in italics. That, I could understand. The use of quotes connotes to me that the things in quotes are ersatz.

Well, that would make sense (that items is quotes would be not quite what they are described as) and that's what I thought when I read the menu. But, after eating the meal, the "Haricots Verts" were simply haricots verts.

Yeah, he's over-doing it a bit (especially in the HV case), but in a lot of cases this style is applied properly. During a meal at Vie, I had what was described as a "cassoulet", quotes included. This seemed entirely accurate to me since what I was being served wasn't a true cassoulet, but a cassoulet-style dish. In this particular case, where the quotes were used properly, I found them very helpful.

Along those lines of having to assure that restaurant names are spelled correctly for media, my new favorite thing is arbitratry capitalization.

For example, here in Vegas, the correct usage of various venues is JET, PURE and STACK, as if they have to shout their names.

And of course, there's THEHotel at Mandalay Bay and miX in Las Vegas

eatchicago wrote:

jesteinf wrote:

Matt wrote:

jesteinf wrote:Thomas Keller is the master of the unnecessary quotation marks. I love the man's food, but the menus are damn near impossible to read. This was my favorite from a past meal at Per Se:

Snake River Farm's "Calotte de Boeuf Grillee", "Wagyu" Beef Brisket "Hachis Parmentier", Black Trumpet Mushroom "Duxelles" and "Haricots Verts" with "Sauce Bordelaise"

I mean, come on.

If he intends to be emphasizing the non-English words (which seems to be the case), I believe the proper convention (at least in other types of writing) would be to do so in italics. That, I could understand. The use of quotes connotes to me that the things in quotes are ersatz.

Well, that would make sense (that items is quotes would be not quite what they are described as) and that's what I thought when I read the menu. But, after eating the meal, the "Haricots Verts" were simply haricots verts.

Yeah, he's over-doing it a bit (especially in the HV case), but in a lot of cases this style is applied properly. During a meal at Vie, I had what was described as a "cassoulet", quotes included. This seemed entirely accurate to me since what I was being served wasn't a true cassoulet, but a cassoulet-style dish. In this particular case, where the quotes were used properly, I found them very helpful.

And that would seem to me to be the proper application of quotes. But when something is described as "Prime" Rib-Eye, I think is it prime or is it "prime" with a wink.

eatchicago wrote:I had what was described as a "cassoulet", quotes included. This seemed entirely accurate to me since what I was being served wasn't a true cassoulet, but a cassoulet-style dish. In this particular case, where the quotes were used properly, I found them very helpful.

I kind of agree with this. When I see "quote marks" around somethting on a menu, I assume that it's not authentic or true. For example, if I see "crab" I'll assume it's favored/processed pollack. In a case like that, I'd rather see the quotation marks than just see crab on the menu and getting surimi. The quote marks don't necessarily mean it'll taste bad, it's just a way of indicating what you're really getting.

But I'm not sure that some menu writers don't understand that "quote marks" imply fake, or at best inauthentic, to many customers.

I agree with all the comments that the quotation marks suggest a euphemism for fake

On the Jumeirah Christmas menu, I guess it means "two" creamed eggs (not double) - though I guess one can get a double bull's eye (uh,or is it double bull's eyes? Heck, just scramble the damn things, thanks.)
Will have to dig up a Jumeirah hotel pic once I get home -non-food but it's something

sazerac wrote:I agree with all the comments that the quotation marks suggest a euphemism for fake

On the Jumeirah Christmas menu, I guess it means "two" creamed eggs (not double) - though I guess one can get a double bull's eye (uh,or is it double bull's eyes? Heck, just scramble the damn things, thanks.)
Will have to dig up a Jumeirah hotel pic once I get home -non-food but it's something

Sazerac,

I believe that brotine was referring to the course rather than the description.

Flip

Obviously, Olde School, it isn't a symptom of illiteracy, just of placement

We reserve the right to serve "anybody."

Our "chili" is homemade.

We ask that customers kindly refrain from "smoking."

All burgers are "cooked" medium.

We are not responsible for items left in the "checkroom."

Mhays wrote:Obviously, Olde School, it isn't a symptom of illiteracy, just of placement

We reserve the right to serve "anybody."

Our "chili" is homemade.

We ask that customers kindly refrain from "smoking."

All burgers are "cooked" medium.

We are not responsible for items left in the "checkroom."

Of course it's a form of illiteracy(after a fashion); quotation marks are never used for emphasis, they imply wiggle room within the denoted word or phrase. Alternatively, they denote spoken language, also text derived from another source.

If you use quotations as emphasis then you are, if not illiterate, at the very least, under suspicion of being a dimwit susceptible to conformist strains in colloquial discourse.

Sorry, forgot the

Mhays wrote:Sorry, forgot the

right back atcha

If he intends to be emphasizing the non-English words (which seems to be the case), I believe the proper convention (at least in other types of writing) would be to do so in italics.

I can't explain the more ironic (???) examples of quotation misuse in this thread, but as someone who leans conservatively with grammar rules (admittedly more in theory than practice, read: I'm a grammar nerd), Keller's use could be obsolete but not entirely incorrect, unless of course you think obsolete=incorrect. In the age of the typewriter, I believe the major grammar style books (Chicago, etc) dictated that foreign words and, particularly phrases, should either be in quotations or underlined since typewriters couldn't italicize. That said, I believe even then there were stipulations about the reader and his/her likely familiarity with the words in question. The current (15th) edition of the Chicago Manual of Style still says that foreign language should be set apart (in italics) if it's likely to be unfamiliar to readers. I think Keller should be able to expect reasonably that hispatrons possess a sufficient (inherently multi-lingual) culinary vocabulary and therefore don't need the offsetting in the menu.

I do not, however, thing this problem is limited to restaurants. I've seen a gazillion ads that put a key term in quotes (we offer "quality" -- that sort of thing). And it's not just quotation marks -- no one knows what to do with apostrophes any more. Have you noticed that the sign on the back of many school buses says "driver's needed"?

I will say that this thread is the most encouraging thing I've run into in some time—someone knows how to use these marks.

Flip wrote:

sazerac wrote:On the Jumeirah Christmas menu, I guess it means "two" creamed eggs (not double) - though I guess one can get a double bull's eye (uh,or is it double bull's eyes? Heck, just scramble the damn things, thanks.)
Will have to dig up a Jumeirah hotel pic once I get home -non-food but it's something

Sazerac,

I believe that brotine was referring to the course rather than the description.

"Shoot" (me)! I guess I found use of that word fairly appropriate there (although there's pre-teaser but no foreplay) + I didn't know we were also singling (get it?) out such terms.

---very OT alert---
Anyway, here's a prize worth of a menu maker (from the Burj al Arab (not Jumeirah) sovenir shop). I saw it through the window and the shop was closed, so I didn't think I should "buy" it. ":wink:"

In a post on Per Se I wrote:

A reader is immediately snowed by an avalanche of quotation marks. All but one dish had something in quotation marks, in some cases as many as four. We were told that quotes were used around foreign ingredients ("tomme de brebis") and to indicate irony ("macaroni n' cheese" - and, since we are in Lynne Truss territory, isn't it "macaroni ‘n' cheese"?). Our menu novelist embraces the Condiment Theory of Punctuation: sprinkle marks liberally to bring out the flavor of the text. And while I have your attention, must every ingredient have a provenance? (This meal is sponsored by Cowart, Hallow, Four Story, and Hope Farms, each raising memories of Orwell's Manor Farm). I shiver that soon diners may be forced to watch a procession of marketing videos before the bread arrives. Just emblazon the napkins and be done with it.

Per Se New York

Cynthia wrote:And it's not just quotation marks -- no one knows what to do with apostrophes any more.

Thank you! I tend to be a grammar liberal, but, for goodness' sake, an apostrophe does not mean "look out, here comes an ess!"

My favorite error is around my neighborhood, "homemade" has become contracted into "homade," which, in my mind at least, has rather humorous implications.

As in (excuse the quotations) "Lemonade"

i'm loving this topic!

as an aside, i just absolutely HATE the use of the word 'homemade' on menus, whether it's in quotes or not.

did you make it in the restaurant? then it's not homemade. and if you made it in someone's house, and it really IS homemade, then i don't want to eat it, since making food in someone's house and selling it in a restaurant is illegal due to sanitation concerns.