The chef has the goal of satisfying the guests’ palates and their demands for a great dining experience. The cooks however are motivated to prepare food only up to the standards the chef can monitor.

Ok, most of the other stuff's been covered pretty well, but I just wanted to call out this one particular comment and make sure everyone reading knows that IT'S COMPLETELY AND ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

At least as a general rule.

As someone who has spent more than a decade working as a line cook in a dozen or so restaurants, I can give firsthand testimony to this statement's inaccuracy.

The great majority of cooks take great pride in their craft and are insanely dedicated to producing great food, continuing to learn more technique, learn more about food and how to best handle it, and care very much about ensuring that what they put on plates is the best it can be in every case.

In fact, I have seen more than one cook get fired because they took issue with something the chef was telling them to do, something that they felt would impact the food quality in a negative way, whether it was using product that was a day past its prime, downgrading to a less expensive olive oil, or pushing a cook to speed up the process in order to get the food in the window.

Cooks care, dude. Most of them, at least. You don't do that job for any length of time if you don't care about the food. There are a lot easier ways to make money.

Along those lines, Forlines, I'm wondering what your food industry experience is. Where have you worked?

(as an aside, I was all set to raise my hand and volunteer to represent LTH forum at your 6/27 event, but then I realized that my wife and kids are just coming back into town that same day. I still might be able to go, but I need to check the times and coordinate.)

You are correct, many do take everything they do in the kitchen very seriously. My statement was an over generalization. Though there can be a difference in motivation, and unless each member of staff takes that high standard to heart and feels each plate and each guest matters, there can be some slippage in standard. I am sure you have seen plenty of "punch in, punch out" kind of staff that doesn't care and is detrimental to quality.
What is the difference between a chef and a cook?

It was more than just an overgeneralization.

It was wrong.

Sure, there are punch-in/punch-out types in every industry. There are fewer of them cooking in restaurants than there are dedicated people who care about making great food.

Like I said, there are lots of easier ways to make money. The punch-in/punch-out types don't stick around for too long before they realize this and jump ship.

So....where have you worked?

I will also take this opportunity to add that there's much more to being a chef than possessing the ability to make great food.

Chefs must be able to hire, train, and motivate their staff in a way that effectively manages to avoid the pitfalls you describe. It's great that you can make wonderful food of the highest quality, and it's great that you're dedicated to doing that.

But if that's the extent of your talents, and you're determined to never grow, and become an excellent manager, hiring authority, motivator, trainer, manager of costs, teacher, etc, etc...then you're destined to stay at the level of really, really accomplished home cook.

Because bringing your cooking ability to a larger audience means you sometimes have to entrust other people to help you. It's just not economically viable to limit your offerings to what you're able to do all by yourself.

Now, don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong, per se, with limiting your offerings in such a way, and you may well decide that's the route you'll continue to take. But it is, by definition, an extremely limiting path, and if your food is that good, and you're really that passionate about it, then you'll eventually want to expand your scope, if only to ensure that you'll remain economically able to continue cooking professionally.

Forlines wrote:What is the difference between a chef and a cook?

somewhere between $10K and $500K a year.

Incidentally, Forlines, I like very much that you've stuck with LTHForum despite the harsh initial response you got. Others use this space just to post press release type stuff, and don't bother to engage with the members. Much as I disliked some of your early tactics, I am impressed that you're actually participating in the dialogue.

I trained under Chef Sigi Eisenberger at the Broadmoor Hotel for almost five years as an apprentice. I worked under Chef John Brand, Chef Bertand Bouquin and spent a year as pastry apprentice under Chef Remy Funfrock.
I spent most of my apprenticeship working in the Penrose Room, which is the highest rated restaurant in Colorado.

Marco Pierre White said, 'No cook is self taught, but cooks must teach themselves."
Taking that to heart I have studied the true implications of molecular gastronomy. Instead of focusing on the novel aspects of it, I integrate the deeper understanding of food to shine the light of knowledge onto the dark shadows of the unknown elements of cooking. Food has been put under a microscope in the last decade; we cooks can utilize the knowledge.

Chefdom has many facets to master beyond cooking. Form follows function; understand the function and the form will take care of itself. I have beef with the entire restaurant format and the capitalistic structure that created it. I live according to the ideals of the utopia in my mind. Hope, change, etc.

Isn't this a Tracey Ullman skit?

Form follows function; understand the function and the form will take care of itself.

Interesting thought, but I'm not sure what you mean by it. Can you give an example of something you've prepared that adheres to this principle?

Forlines wrote: I have beef with the entire restaurant format

So does KFC, apparently.

I trained under Chef Sigi Eisenberger at the Broadmoor Hotel for almost five years as an apprentice. I worked under Chef John Brand, Chef Bertand Bouquin and spent a year as pastry apprentice under Chef Remy Funfrock. I spent most of my apprenticeship working in the Penrose Room, which is the highest rated restaurant in Colorado.

Whoa, just curious, but upon re-reading, it appears that you served as an apprentice for five years? Is that the case?

If so, that's highly unconventional. How did you arrive at such a relationship and how did your apprenticeship last so long?

Please understand, I'm not criticizing your or your path, I'm just curious. It sounds a lot more like the European apprenticeship program, and that's not something one normally sees here in the US.

Update from the frontlines: fellow LTHer, jygach, and I will be tackling this adventure, just to find out what's behind it. We'll both report back after the 6/27 dinner. Stay tuned.

elakin wrote:brutal, you guys are!

here's a bit more info about this guy.

I liked this part the best...

I note that the menu for both of the upcoming Soylent Fuchsia dinner parties is … ahem … long on pig. I’m as adventurous as anyone, but in this case, I think I’d sign up for the vegetarian option.

Loved how the author worked the long pig reference in with Soylent Green...

Cynthia wrote:Update from the frontlines: fellow LTHer, jygach, and I will be tackling this adventure, just to find out what's behind it. We'll both report back after the 6/27 dinner. Stay tuned.

Good for you, Cynthia and Jyoti! I look forward to hearing your adventure!

I'd be in, +3, if there's still room. I will buy the 4 tickets.

Update: Tix purchased

Thanks,

=R=

LTH party! Elizabeth and I bought tix.

Elakin,
I spent a long time in a european style working apprenticeship. It was a sink or swim kind of education. The beauty of it was that the chefs would trust you as much as you could demonstrate your capacity to deal with the demands of the kitchen. We were always understaffed and I got the chance to work in many facets in a large culinary facility. The hotel does banquet functions from 10 to 2,000 guests. The hotel also boasts 10 full service restaurants, all of which I got to work.

So have you ever worked anywhere except that one hotel? Were you an unpaid apprentice for the entire five-years that you were there?

Can you also describe your 3 biggest strengths, and your 3 biggest weaknesses? And tell me about a time you had to demonstrate leadership during a challenging time? List three references on the application form, and I think we're all set. Thanks.

Seriously, isn't the interrogation going just a tiny bit toward absurdum?

8 tix sold? Talk about rewarding bad behavior. Apparently the young master's self indulgent marketing scheme worked and we'll have the honor to read, ignore or debate his pompous philosophies for as long as he'll blather them and we humor him. A better use for duct tape and finger splints I couldn't imagine.

As mentioned above, please keep in mind that throwing down a good meal @ a one off event does not a chef make (any more than a degree from a culinary school would). For what it's worth "chef" is a very incorrect and overused term these days used to describe someone that cooks well while it's 100's of things in addition to that.

I think it's great. He's going to have to put on one spectacular meal now. The same way he put out his marketing is the same way he's going to get feed back. To continue on with his efforts, knowing what kind of crowd he is going to have before him shows a lot of confidence.

Jazzfood wrote:please keep in mind that throwing down a good meal @ a one off event does not a chef make (any more than a degree from a culinary school would).

Maybe not, but throwing down a good meal at a one off event means that the people at that event get to have a good meal. For my fifty bucks, that's all I care about. I'll leave the semantic philosophizing to others.

He certainly puts himself out there. Here's what appears to be an open mike comedy routine from Mr. Forlines. His rather ironic first line is "I don't have anything to say, I just like attention."

isn't the interrogation going just a tiny bit toward absurdum?

As I explained above, I'm just curious, because it's so atypical of how cooks/chefs in this country move through their careers. Wasn't intended to be an "interrogation".

Kenny, why don't you let Forlines decide for himself whether he wants to continue answering my questions? If he takes issue with them or believes it's an "interrogation", I have confidence he'll say so. He doesn't seem like a shrinking violet.

elakin wrote:

isn't the interrogation going just a tiny bit toward absurdum?

Kenny, why don't you let Forlines decide for himself whether he wants to continue answering my questions?

you got it.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing the techniques demonstrated. Ever since tableside cooking went out of vogue, I've missed watching the process. I love seeing how things are done.

That isn't even my best set...

As we all are, I am merely a reaction to my environment. I see an opportunity to sneak my food to the public, without spending years as some chef’s hands and waiting for the chef lottery to go my way. By gosh golly I have at least have to try. Who knows, I might pull this off.
The apprenticeship was a ploy for the hotel to get cheap labor by promising a piece of paper. The hotel is the majority of my experience. I came here and did the fine dining stage thing and kinda got bummed by the lack of intelligent food philosophy. I can only get so excited about liquid nitrogen. So now I have put all my eggs in my own basket of delusion and am running towards the ultimate trial by fire. I just want to get the whole burning out, out of the way so I can go grow tomatoes on a farm and sell them in a village on a barter system.

It was at moto that I realized the absurdity of how extreme the principle of division of labor has gone to has created a society of over-specialization. So much so that individuals are succumbing to the demands of a larger system with detriment to their spiritual well being. Society peaked. Let’s back track a little. I can be both hands and mind. Everyone can.

You jive?
Andrew Curtis Forlines

Forlines wrote:You jive?

Not even slightly. But who cares? Looking forward to experiencing what all of those words turn out to be on the plate.

Jazzfood wrote:8 tix sold? Talk about rewarding bad behavior. Apparently the young master's self indulgent marketing scheme worked and we'll have the honor to read, ignore or debate his pompous philosophies for as long as he'll blather them and we humor him. A better use for duct tape and finger splints I couldn't imagine.

Nah, I don't see it that way. One meal isn't going to make or break anyone and I'm curious if Forlines' walk can match up with his talk. I figure it'll be a unique experience -- and if we're lucky -- it'll be a great meal, too. My biggest concern is giving up one my 52 precious Saturday nights this year. But even if the meal is a disaster, it'll likely make for a great story.

Kennyz wrote:Looking forward to experiencing what all of those words turn out to be on the plate.

True 'dat.

=R=

i saw someone do something similair in Portland, OR a few years ago. they brought it up on a board out there, got flamed, the dinner was a failure, and they were never heard from again. underground dinners are meant to be underground, the hype of said dinners builds its own rep after you do a handful...nuff said...

oh and heres an idea, ill just throw out there. if you're doing different dates of an underground, why don't you do different menus? not really into this menu at all, its a shame.

i like this part,

"Join me as I prepare a multi-course food experience. I will be playing with all the local ingredients in season. If you have never had Sous Vide and Molecular Gastronomy cuisine, this will be an amazing introduction to the neo-new wave cooking. Seamlessly utilized in companion with traditional cooking techniques."


if you just moved to chitown from 'rado, hint, we've been using maltodextrin over here for a while and you have to do something unique with it. anyone can add oil into tm and make a powder. that is hardly unique. many would say that chicago is at the forefront of MG restaurants in America. BTW sous vide is 'illegal' in chicago, learn your facts, son, gyst (get your shit together)


yeah its affordable, but so are a bunch of others things in town

im gonna stop here, there is just so much wrong with this. it is 2009, isn't it?

Porkatarian wrote:...nuff said...

Au contraire.

If the founder of an "underground dinner" doesn't spread the word at least a little, wouldn't it end up just being a guy cooking for himself?

Also, please explain how "dinner was a failure" has a direct correlation to "brought it up on a board out there, got flamed". I personally see that as two unrelated (and unfortunate) events.

Finally, who is this "they" to which you refer? What was their venture called? To which board was it posted? Or as they say in the Wikipedia community, [citation needed].

As you can see, when I see the phrase "nuff said" trotted out during a debate, my response is, <french accent>"CHALLENGE!"</french accent>.