I admire your dedication to the conceit.

Steve:


X <---- You









The Point -----> X


If you walk in and say, "Hey, can you send out whatever the chef is most proud of and whatever looks great tonight?" that's one thing. When your arrival is heralded as "national writers" before you even set foot in the door, that request takes on a very different color.

I'm setting the over/under on the length of this thread by 11:59pm on Friday at 17.5. Who's in?

When someone walks into a restaurant and says we would like the kitchen to cook for us, all they are really asking is for the kitchen to send out what they think is their best meal. In some instances that might mean you get dishes that aren't on the menu, and in some instances, the kitchen might devise a tasting menu of what they feel are their best dishes.

Yes, but L2O has a tasting menu. What made you suspect that it was not their best dishes? That there was something else to be had that you wouldn't get unless you really, really asked for it?

I'll give you my own example: years ago when we ate at Trio, before Grant Achatz went to Alinea, we ordered the 22 or whatever tasting course menu, and also observed what people who ordered the 8-course or whatever menu got. It was quite obvious that they basically got the crowd pleasers, the less challenging choices off our menu. This seemed reasonable enough, and gave you a reason to consider one or the other "better"-- either the shorter menu got rid of the weirdest stuff, or the longer one gave you the richer experience, depending on your point of view. (I'm sure this is often the case with tasting menus, but it was most apparent there.)

Okay, so one menu is more advanced, one less. But it would never occur to me that there was also something beyond even the 22-course menu that represented the real best menu. (Indeed, it's kind of an odd thought, the idea that they probably have some snail roe, a Sauternes gelee and some pickled hibiscus sitting around, waiting for the customer who walks in and says "Not the same old braised kangaroo with ramp foam for me, I want you to make me something really special." There seem to be obvious inventory and freshness issues with running your restaurant that way.) So what did you really expect would happen when you said, effectively, "we want a tasting menu beyond the tasting menu you already have?" To your issue with Laurent Gras picking or not picking your meal, it sure seems to me like you told your servers, "What laurent Gras already picked isn't what we want, pick something else."

jesteinf wrote:I'm setting the over/under on the length of this thread by 11:59pm on Friday at 17.5. Who's in?

I'm gonna break your bank by taking the under. The odds of this not devolving to the point where the Mods have to lock the thread before 17.5 pages are tiny.

If you walk in and say, "Hey, can you send out whatever the chef is most proud of and whatever looks great tonight?" that's one thing. When your arrival is heralded as "national writers" before you even set foot in the door, that request takes on a very different color.

First of all I never did that. That was Dutchmuse's correspondence with the sommelier. All I did was show up to eat and ask the kitchen to cook for us. It wasn't exactly provocative. Second of all, even if that is what happened, so what? What is wrong with asking a restaurant to send out what they think are their best dishes?

Steve Plotnicki wrote:I haven't read through this entire thread but I thought I would weigh in on the subject

Thanks for the chuckle....................

Mike G wrote:Yes, but L2O has a tasting menu. What made you suspect that it was not their best dishes? That there was something else to be had that you wouldn't get unless you really, really asked for it?

Because that's the way it is at most high end Frenchrestaurants. At a place like Troisgros the classic dishes are not even listed on the menu. But if you are an informed diner and you ask for them, they will be happy to prepare them for you. And if you are uninformed and you asked your captain to have the kitchen prepare some of the house classics, they are happy to comply. That's just the way it works in the high end dining world.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:

If you walk in and say, "Hey, can you send out whatever the chef is most proud of and whatever looks great tonight?" that's one thing. When your arrival is heralded as "national writers" before you even set foot in the door, that request takes on a very different color.

First of all I never did that. That was Dutchmuse's correspondence with the sommelier. All I did was show up to eat and ask the kitchen to cook for us. It wasn't exactly provocative. Second of all, even if that is what happened, so what? What is wrong with asking a restaurant to send out what they think are their best dishes?

On this occasion, no, you didn't. The Avenues write-up and your own words indicate, however, that this is something you regularly do, no?

And what's wrong with it is that the subtext of that combination of actions amounts to throwing your weight around. "What you have on the regular menu isn't good enough... I want you to do better than what you've already identified as your best... and, by the way, my name is Steve Plotnicki -- perhaps you've heard of me -- and I run a national restaurant survey."

Steve Plotnicki wrote:That's just the way it works in the high end dining world.

Except when it doesn't, apparently.

Boy you guys are rude. Does it really make you feel better to say some of those silly things?

Dmnkly, I am not complaining that the restaurant didn't give us anything special. My complaint merely has to do with the restaurant deciding to have Allison choose our meal without telling us. That is a major service faux pas because had we known we would have been happier choosing our own meal than letting her do it. That is my SOLE complaint about the evening.

Can someone tell me how to stop reading this trainwreck of a thread? I keep clicking on the new posts...help me!

edited to correct spelling

That brings us back full circle to the very first response to DutchMuse
by Mike G:

"I have to admit, I'm wondering what you expected when you go to a place with a tasting menu and ask the chef to devise something special, as if the tasting menu does not represent the chef's thinking on those lines in the first place. How would throwing together a tasting menu on the fly ever be better than the tasting menu he's already carefully thought through?

And why so vague about asking them to "cook for you"?
I'm sure asking for something more specific like the House's
"best dish" (BD) or "latest invention" (LI) may have been met
with a more meaningful response (MR).

Steve Plotnicki wrote:
Because that's the way it is at most high end Frenchrestaurants. At a place like Troisgros the classic dishes are not even listed on the menu. But if you are an informed diner and you ask for them, they will be happy to prepare them for you. And if you are uninformed and you asked your captain to have the kitchen prepare some of the house classics, they are happy to comply. That's just the way it works in the high end dining world.

This is ironically also how it works at Spoon Thai, which is perhaps a better representation of both Chicago, and this community.

Mike G wrote:Indeed, it's kind of an odd thought, the idea that they probably have some snail roe, a Sauternes gelee and some pickled hibiscus sitting around, waiting for the customer who walks in and says "Not the same old braised kangaroo with ramp foam for me, I want you to make me something really special."

You a funny dude, Mike.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Dmnkly, I am not complaining that the restaurant didn't give us anything special. My complaint merely has to do with the restaurant deciding to have Allison choose our meal without telling us. That is a major service faux pas because had we known we would have been happier choosing our own meal than letting her do it. That is my SOLE complaint about the evening.

And, unless I missed a post somewhere, not only has nobody disagreed with this assessment, but many have jumped in to agree.

Like I say:

X <----- You





The Point -------> X

Since you said up front that you haven't read the thread, I suggest you do.

Because that's the way it is at most high end Frenchrestaurants. At a place like Troisgros the classic dishes are not even listed on the menu. But if you are an informed diner and you ask for them, they will be happy to prepare them for you. And if you are uninformed and you asked your captain to have the kitchen prepare some of the house classics, they are happy to comply. That's just the way it works in the high end dining world.

I don't really think of Asian-fusion L2O as being especially like nouvelle-cuisine Troisgros, except maybe by comparison with the most extreme old school French gastronomy (by which everything that happened since Verdun is kind of similar), and it doesn't really seem like classic dishes were what you were after anyway (is anybody going into L2O and expecting pike quenelles in sauce soubise?)

Maybe I'm a provincial hick who doesn't know how it works in the high end dining world, in fact the odds are pretty good (I'll never live down asking the maitre'd at Ducasse where the cows for the reblochon were kept), but I'm still baffled what you thought a restaurant built on its tasting menu was holding back on you.

Mike G wrote: Maybe I'm a provincial hick who doesn't know how it works in the high end dining world, in fact the odds are pretty good (I'll never live down asking the maitre'd at Ducasse where the cows for the reblochon were kept), but I'm still baffled what you thought a restaurant built on its tasting menu was holding back on you.

But we didn't think they were holding back. We simply asked the chef to choose our meal. He could have chosen the tasting menu or any assortment of dishes. What he did was ask our server to choose. That's not what we asked for.

SCUBAchef - If you listen to that 12", my wife and I (we weren't married at the time) along with my partner and his grilfriend are the crowd screaming "ho ho" on the record. You couldn't make some of these stories up.

I seriously don't get why you have to ask the chef to cook for you- there's a tasting menu just for this reason.

And the national ranking that Steve produces is still idiotic.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:We simply asked the chef to choose our meal. He could have chosen the tasting menu or any assortment of dishes. What he did was ask our server to choose. That's not what we asked for.

I've been following this thread with great interest and wanted to take the risk of chiming in. I absolutely think the main problems here was a lack of communication on all sides. [of course, i'm ignoring the more nuanced issues that have already been discussed; that is, possible expectations for extra-special treatment, possible actions to procure such treatment, power and ethics in food reviewing etc.]

Here is what I mean.

If the diners would have simply stated, "we would like to eat the best that the chef has to offer," then maybe the mishap would not have happened. So some responsibility for the poor dining experience could be placed on the diner's seemingly ambiguous request. Though clearly, the diners did not perceive this request as ambiguous and believe that the FOH staff would have understood exactly what they meant if they knew the 4* code.

Some responsibility also falls on the FOH staff. They could have simply stated up front, when the request was made, that "The chef does not deviate from his published menu....we think that the tasting menu showcases his talent." Again, this statement could have obviated the mishap. Instead, in an attempt to please (presumably) they decided to give the diners something extra-special....put together by them and not the chef. Apparently, it was only after the the diners complained that the FOH stated:

“I communicated it to someone there but I’m not allowed to approach or speak to the Chef.”

“the Chef doesn’t do any special menu for anybody, including famous chefs who dine here.”

I think that if the FOH had communicated this to the diners in the first place, there would not have been a problem.
Thus, in my humble unsolicited opinion, there is blame to go around. Of course, I am focusing here on what I perceive the be the core of the complaint and mishap -- poor communication on all sides -- rather than some of the interesting issues that have already been talked about at length (diner expectations, role of the chef in FOH, special menus).

As has been noted by others. I can see how the "cook for me" thing might work well in a restaurant without a degustation menu. But, it seems that as a diner, I would be shooting myself in the foot by asking the chef to deviate from what he/she has already put lots of time and thought into putting together. But, that's not for me to judge. If a diner does make the "cook for me" request and I was the FOH person, I do my best to correct their expectations so that I do not run the risk of failing them.

my 2 cents...thought I'd get it in before this gets locked. Also, the thread could make all introspect of what our own expectations might be, if and when we drop comments like "I read about you on LTH" or flash LTH business cards when at our next meal. Could there be subtle treats of bad reviews embedded in such comments with some very silent expectations lurking in the mind or just sharing of the LTH love?

Great thread -- for the most part! There is such a unique combination of intelligence, wit, knowledge, high & low brow humor, and general irreverence on this board -- gotta love it.

Isn't it part of the server's job to assess the customer's preferences and expectations and help them select dishes that will be to their liking? After all, the server spends more interactive time with the customers than anyone else in the restaurant, certainly more than some executive chef that is running his ass off in the kitchen.

r2g wrote:I've been following this thread with great interest and wanted to take the risk of chiming in. I absolutely think the main problems here was a lack of communication on all sides.

But that is exactly the point I am making. I can walk into Charlie Trotter's and tell my captain I want the kitchen to cook for me and they will know exactly what I am asking for. But they were at a loss as to how to handle that at L2O. How can a restaurant present themselves as one of the best in the country if the staff doesn't have enough experience to know how to handle that situation? And if the service staff is clueless, shouldn't Laurent Gras know what to do? I assure you that if you go into The French Laundry, Jean George, Le Bernardin and make the very same request they will know what to do without even flinching.

So, I decided to try an experiment last night here in LA. Went to a restaurant which was recently added to Jonathan Gold's 99 Essential LA Restaurants.

Sat down and without even looking at the menu, asked the waiter for a tasting of the chef's best dishes. Whatever the chef felt I should eat. He responded that there were 2 tasting menus: 6 or 9 courses. I went with 9.

The dinner started. I was impressed by how beautiful the dishes were, but they tasted ok. About 3 courses in, I asked for the menu again to see what else was offered. By then I have gone past the cold appetizers and started on the hot courses. I noticed they had an uni appetizer. Glancing over at the table next to me, a gentleman was busy wiping that dish clean. His opinion: the best dish on the menu.

I felt a little disappointed. Why did I not get the dish? If it was the best dish on the menu, why was it not on MY menu?! But I rectified the situation. I asked the waiter if I could get that dish. He explained that I am already on the hot courses. And I agreed it may be disruptive to the progression. My solution? I asked for it to be served before the cheese and dessert course.

See... All it took was a simple request, and voila I had my uni and ate it too... And yes, it was the best thing I ate that night. A total of 10 courses, and only 2 that I really enjoyed. Later I found out that my waiter had personally selected the dishes in my tasting. The chef had asked him to. If the chef can trust the man, and I trust the chef, how can I not trust the man? My trust in a chef has to extend to any decision that he makes, even if it means he asks the dishwasher to select my dishes!

The dinner itself was so-so. But I wasn't upset. Restaurants have good days and bad days. I did come away from this dinner with something:

sometimes a excellent meal cannot be judged by the food itself, but with the people you meet while having it

Dutchmuse and S. P. keep referring to L20 as a top tier restaurant, seemingly one of the best in the good ole U.S.of A. At the risk of extending this thread(who am I kidding, it's like watching a train wreck that I don't want to end), does anyone else feel that this restaurant is "top tier"? I don't. I mean, I've eaten at Guy Savoy(mentioned earlier, along with many other restaurants that one would consider "top tier") and L20 doesn't come close. It might break the top 50 nationally and maybe the top 10 here in Chicago.
How do you feel?

That line about the kangaroo with ramp foam was damn funny.

100 large on the over.

There persists the notion that we contacted the restaurant with the message of a "national survey" mission. For the record below is a cut and paste of my email to the sommelier after an initial paragraph stating she and I had met once before at the restaurant and how I got her email. I think the email is polite, not arrogant, and says nothing about a national survey.
*****

This Sunday night, I'll have, again, the good fortune to be dining at
L20 with my friends Steve Plotnicki (he publishes the Opinionated
About restaurant guide) and Gary Alan Fine who writes the Veal Cheeks
blog.

We were wondering if it might be possible to bring some wine and what
the guidelines were as we want to be good guests, etc...  Would it be
alright if we brought some wine and paid the corkage?

Thanks, Chantelle, and if you're there on Sunday (hopefully for your
sake you'll be out enjoying the final days of summer on a Sunday
night), we'll look forward to seeing you at the restaurant!

Why mention what they publish/where they blog? What did it add to the conversation except to signal that they were somehow special and should be treated as such?

gleam wrote:Why mention what they publish/where they blog? What did it add to the conversation except to signal that they were somehow special and should be treated as such?

Agreed, that e-mail smacks of, "we write about food, we want to be treated special"

Why would I not mention it? They are foodies. You guys really need to look at things. You are so intent on "proving your point" you're really being unfair.

The email IMHO is polite, asks for their policy, says we expect to pay corkage fees (so much for someones speculation we e pected to be comped) and says we want to be good guests.

There's an argument it would have been inconsiderate NOT to mention it. Most restaurants appreciate knowing who their guests are. To me it seemed natural and appropriate.

Are you going to read it in a neutral perspective or do you want to have a lynch mob mentality?

DutchMuse wrote:Why would I not mention it? They are foodies. You guys really need to look at things. You are so intent on "proving your point" you're really being unfair.

The email IMHO is polite, asks for their policy, says we expect to pay corkage fees (so much for someones speculation we e pected to be comped) and says we want to be good guests.

There's an argument it would have been inconsiderate NOT to mention it. Most restaurants appreciate knowing who their guests are. To me it seemed natural and appropriate.

Are you going to read it in a neutral perspective or do you want to have a lynch mob mentality?

If your point was to find out about corkage then there is genuinely no value in saying for whom you write. As a matter of fact I can find no reason whatsoever to say for whom you write- it should make no difference whatsoever in your dining experience.

I don't believe you wanted to be comped, but I find that e-mailing a restaurant prior to dining and suggesting that you're food writers or in some way associated with a group with this kind of relationship to the restaurant industry (reviewers, rankers, etc.) is both arrogant and seems to be somewhat unethical from a best practices standpoint.

If you were truly only interested in corkage you would have just called and said you were wine lovers and hage a great wine collection and wanted to ask about corkage.

OK this has reached a real impasse. I think we should just agree to disagree, yes? Some people might have taken Dutchmuse's email the wrong way and thought that it implied an ulterior motive. Others may just consider it a casual off-hand comment. Let's just leave it at that.

It's funny, because I just read this article about a minute ago:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/03/ruiz.closed.minds/index.html?iref=mpstoryview