I just want to see more of GAF's pictures of the food @ L.20 if there are any.

So much for my attempt to send this thread in a different direction...

I'm not sure how DutchMuse is still standing when he keeps shooting himself in the foot.

To announce yourselves and mention the fact that you write some sort of food blog is arrogance personified. I originally had some sympathy for your position but not now.

I work in television(behind the scenes, I'm nobody) but I could go into a restaurant, announce that I work for WXYZ-TV, with the implication being that I could trash your restaurant. To announce yourselves in the same way shows that you don't get it.

Every restaurant strives to put their very best on the table every time and I have to think that they don't give a flying(insert bad word here) who you are or anyone else for that matter.

hoppy2468 wrote:I'm not sure how DutchMuse is still standing when he keeps shooting himself in the foot.

Let's try to remember the purpose of LTHForum.

Kennyz wrote:

jesteinf wrote:I'm setting the over/under on the length of this thread by 11:59pm on Friday at 17.5. Who's in?

I'm gonna break your bank by taking the under. The odds of this not devolving to the point where the Mods have to lock the thread before 17.5 pages are tiny.

Kenny is starting to look like a winner.

Please, lets keep on polite track.

From the restaurant's perspective, every tom dick and harry has a food blog nowadays...

I can assure you, DutchMuse is standing quite tall and I have no need for medical attention to my foot. But thanks for your concern anyway.

(I used to work in radio and TV as well before I became a psychologist--was even a member of AFTRA.)

jpschust wrote:Why mention what they publish/where they blog? What did it add to the conversation except to signal that they were somehow special and should be treated as such?

Agreed, that e-mail smacks of, "we write about food, we want to be treated special"[/quote]

But we DO want to be treated special. What is wrong with that?

Wouldn't you like to be treated special?

What strikes me as unusual about this thread, and to be honest we used to have the same problem on OA until I wouldn't allow this type of discussion any longer, is that rather than that viewing Dutchmuse's email as an attempt by passionate food lovers to get the best possible meal, most people here insist on characterizing it as throwing weight around. It's silly. Dutchmuse isn't threatening the restaurant. He is giving them a heads up which they were grateful to get.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:

jpschust wrote:Why mention what they publish/where they blog? What did it add to the conversation except to signal that they were somehow special and should be treated as such?

Agreed, that e-mail smacks of, "we write about food, we want to be treated special"

But we DO want to be treated special. What is wrong with that?

Wouldn't you like to be treated special?

And thusly, the fundamental core of the discussion is laid bare.

Those who have been giving you a hard time, Steve? If it means throwing our weight around and name-dropping to get it? No, we really wouldn't. Some of us think it's unethical, and some of us think it's just plain boorish.

All I can say, Steve, is that I appreciate your honesty.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:

jpschust wrote:Why mention what they publish/where they blog? What did it add to the conversation except to signal that they were somehow special and should be treated as such?

Agreed, that e-mail smacks of, "we write about food, we want to be treated special"

But we DO want to be treated special. What is wrong with that?

Wouldn't you like to be treated special?[/quote]Wow, I don't even know what to say to this other than this further proves my ethics comment from before.

Unethical? What does ethics have to do with it. This is a discussion about art and commerce, not morality.

Going to a restaurant is a negotiation like buying a car. Is it unethical for me to get a better deal than you get on a car because I'm a better negotiator? Or is it unethical if I know how to call an airline and get a free upgrade to first class when you don't know how to do it? Having a great meal at a restaurant isn't a lesson in egalitariansim, it's a lesson in capitalism. So don't be angry with Dutchmuse etc. for pointing that out. He doesn't set the rules. The restaurants set them and that's how they want the system to work.

Amen, Dom.

Jiminy Cricket!

At the risk of making Kennyz rich, I think Dom has hit the nail on the head. We disagree. Some of us think one thing; some of us think something else. We are rehashing and rehashing and rehashing. To what end? No one is changing anyone's mind. While train wrecks can be compelling watching for a while, after a time, there's nothing left to see (or say) (one hopes).

And, at the risk of incurring further teasing from Mike G, I formally say "tsk, tsk."

Can we now please resume our regularly scheduled discussion of the food?

That was two pages ago (and right after the most excellent Grey Poupon post), I'm with ya now.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Unethical? What does ethics have to do with it. This is a discussion about art and commerce, not morality.

Going to a restaurant is a negotiation like buying a car. Is it unethical for me to get a better deal than you get on a car because I'm a better negotiator? Or is it unethical if I know how to call an airline and get a free upgrade to first class when you don't know how to do it? Having a great meal at a restaurant isn't a lesson in egalitariansim, it's a lesson in capitalism. So don't be angry with Dutchmuse etc. for pointing that out. He doesn't set the rules. The restaurants set them and that's how they want the system to work.

For the record, Steve, when I say some consider it unethical and some consider it boorish, I'm uncertain whether or not I'm in the former camp. It's a very interesting question. But I know that I'm firmly in the latter. There are a lot of things people do to get their way, and just because a good business will deal with those people with courtesy and a smile, doesn't mean it's right to put them in that position. Just because you can do something, and because somebody will let you do something doesn't mean you should. And I'm trying my best to put this as politely as possible.

It's a fundamental difference of opinion about what's socially appropriate, Steve. And I suspect neither of our minds is going to be changed anytime soon.

One of the surest, most effective ways to get a thread back on track is to post and demand that the thread get back on track. Just an observation.

I have no problem with people using their names or high positions to get special treatment. I find it neither unethical nor boorish. In fact, I completely agree that in most cases, restaurants would prefer to know if they have someone of significant stature in their dining room. The problem comes when it's only the patron that thinks his or her stature is significant. When that happens, he or she may be viewed as a self-important pain in the ass*, and treated thusly.


* I am not, of course, calling anyone in this thread a self-indulgent pain in the ass. I'm merely offering a hypothetical explanation of what might go through the mind of chefs, restaurant managers, and readers on various discussion forums.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:He doesn't set the rules. The restaurants set them and that's how they want the system to work.

So, recognizing that the restaurant sets the rules, should one be upset when the restaurant chooses to operate by a different set of rules than those the diners expected them to play by? Especially when the expectations for the restaurant to play by different rules are not being explicitly conveyed? *I guess one of the rules of the "game" is that the expectations cannot by explicitly conveyed.* I think that one point being made in the OP by DutchMuse was that if L20 aspires to be a 4* restaurant, then they should know these rules and that the chef should be compelled to play by them. I, for one, am happy to hear that Chef Gras does not play by these rules and instead chooses to focus on what he perceives he does best. Thus far, this thread has only served to increase my desire to eat at L20.

IMHO -- this thread has been far from a train wreck. the ratio of interesting information to ponder vs mindless name calling has been quite high. This has been one of the more interesting tangents I've encountered on this board (and boy....there are many!)

*edeted to corect misspeled werd*

For the record, Steve, when I say some consider it unethical and some consider it boorish,

.

But that's the system the restaurants have set up. That is why I am puzzled as to why you are trying to blame Dutchmuse for a system that was set up in restaurants in France before any of us were born? The way it works is they offer a better experience to more important customers. If you want to change that, complain to the Michel Troisgros' of the world not me.

So, recognizing that the restaurant sets the rules, should one be upset when the restaurant chooses to operate by a different set of rules than those the diners expected them to play by

Well this really gets to the point. Dutchmuse was complaining that if L2O wants to be considered a top tier restaurant, they have to be sensitive to those types of diners. But secondly, if they are not going to they need to communicate that the diners are better off constructing their own program for the evening.

Look the very next night I had dinner with my son at Blackbird before the Steely Dan show, They shpwed me the menu, and I chose 5 dishes from the ala carte menu and asked Mike if he would send out tasting size portions of those dishes and he was happy to comply. I would have done the same thing at L2O had they given me the opportunity

Steve Plotnicki wrote:The way it works is they offer a better experience to more important customers ....

Precisely.

Aw, c'mon guys. Honestly, I find some of the comments on this thread overly smug to say the least. We are looking for special treatment. We want our Katy's wall menu translated. We pine to dine with ErikM who organizes meals where the Chef barely thinks about what is on the nominal menu. We go back stage at Honey1 and make sure we order our clams "Evil Ronnie" style. We friend Kelly on Facebook and accept dinners that are not made available for everyone. I mean we are told explicitly what to do in order to get the right type of treatment at Gene and Georgetti's. It is only when it gets to a certain kind of restaurant that people's nose gets out of joint. Let me also say this, the age of the anonymous restaurant critic is fading. Look at Jay Rayner. He's not hiding nor are many of his breathern.

I'm not saying that there are not ethical landmines. It is wrong to extort a restaurant, to dangle a favorable rating for a comped meal as has been alleged in some cases. It is incumbent on the reviewer to demonstrate in some way, through disclosures, though posting history, whatever, that no untold behavior occurred. Still, is that any different from what goes on here a lot. Many of us our friends or at least good acquaintances with many of the people we post about, Mark Mendez, Rob Levitt, Paul Virant, Paul Kahn, as well as various Chinese, Mexican, and BBQ places well loved on this site. The readers of these posts must weed through the growth of bias's.

Speaking from experiences, I can say that the "tasting menu" is often not the night's best offerings. I can see why someone would want to inquire of something better. And to think L20 has no better is not to read some of the earlier posts in this thread (cf Suburban, Ronnie) or have watched the episode of No Reservations. You can take what's given or you can try for that.

We can talk endlessly about the process of getting special treatment. Ironically, for this thread, Steve P's arch nemesis Steven Shaw, has written a book on it getter better treatment. We can work at becoming VIPs by dining out often, spending much and tipping large. We can also review these boards, study the tips and toss around code words ("can I have Gary's chili oil"). The people who dined at L20 the other night offered two things in hope of getting special treatment. For one thing, as suggested upthread, they put out a big credit line. Give us your best, we'll pay for it. Second, they offered up their experiences. They said (or implied at least), we've been here and there. We've met and talked with your contemporaries, your rivals, your hero's. We want to see how you compare. That is an offer and challenge that is not so ridiculous as it is made out here.

The thing is, Steve and Gary and DutchMuse were not so miffed by the lack of special treatment. Their expressed concern, as written in the posts above, was how things got communicated. Yet, what has driven the ire in this thread is not so much the communication but the desire. All I can say, those who want to dine as generic as possible, you can. But if I'm out there schmoozing with the chefs, dining with Plotnicki, or bringing along my secret menu, keep your ire away from me.

VI,

That post is way too long, and is full of far too many good points that are worthy of productive discussion. I've got a lot of money riding against that happening, so I wish you'd stayed out of it

KZ

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Unethical? What does ethics have to do with it. This is a discussion about art and commerce, not morality.

Going to a restaurant is a negotiation like buying a car. Is it unethical for me to get a better deal than you get on a car because I'm a better negotiator? Or is it unethical if I know how to call an airline and get a free upgrade to first class when you don't know how to do it? Having a great meal at a restaurant isn't a lesson in egalitariansim, it's a lesson in capitalism. So don't be angry with Dutchmuse etc. for pointing that out. He doesn't set the rules. The restaurants set them and that's how they want the system to work.

Seriously? You see no ethical conflict between creating a restaurant guide and dropping your name in getting a reservation?

At the risk of having this thread being hijacked by a discussion of L2O's food I present an additional image from the dinner - a dish on the menu that can be enjoyed by all you peasants with pitchforks.

I believe that this dish is Fluke, Ume (Japanese plum), Sudachi (a Japanese citrus fruit) with fried garlic chips, and shiso leaves on top. (This is a dish on the menu, but I didn't write down the ingredients at the time, so I apologize if I got some ingrediants wrong). I love shiso leaves, which are one of my favorite discovered tastes of the last decade. They have an odd but compelling sweetish-herbal air. The dish is reminiscent of the L2O style - sashimi embedded within contemporary cuisine. I had somewhat mixed feelings about the garlic chips, but it did make me think about the subtle and very fresh fish texture and taste. It was a special and evocative dish, although not my favorite of the evening. At times the clash of flavors and feels worked brilliantly, but not throughout the eating of the dish.



(At the risk of adding kindling to the discussion, I note that when one asks for the chef to create a special menu, one commits oneself to the restaurant's accounting, whatever that bill might be. So Steve's metaphor of getting a better deal on a car is not really apt.)

I'm done. Go back to discussing boorishness.

Outstanding points, VI. Could not have said it any better myself.

Yours,

The Forgotten Man*



*Sorry...only two people are going to get that

Now that we're heading back to civility...

Everyone to their separate favorite restaurant for a nice dinner

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Look the very next night I had dinner with my son at Blackbird before the Steely Dan show, They shpwed me the menu, and I chose 5 dishes from the ala carte menu and asked Mike if he would send out tasting size portions of those dishes and he was happy to comply. I would have done the same thing at L2O had they given me the opportunity

Interesting idea - I would love to do this. Our of curiosity, how did they price these tasting portions relative to the regular price?

VI- I agree with you and Kenny completley.....What am I going to do now. This thread had me at "we asked if the Chef would put together a menu he thought best for that night."

I have gone one way and then completely the other reading this thread.

I've done the same thing that Steve has done in the past in foreign countries, not so much here, but I will throw out the occasional, what is the best thing here. Or, if I know the chef, what do you have back there. Always casually.

These guys wanted to put themselves in the hands of their chef, and apparently the chef didn't want to play. That's all they really need to know, because in the end, no matter who they are, they are the ones with the money.

Vital Information wrote:Yet, what has driven the ire in this thread is not so much the communication but the desire.

If I'm among those toward whom this is directed (I'm honestly not sure), this isn't at all what I've said. Restaurants sometimes confer special treatment. Not only is this reality, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Diners would love to have a special meal. With perhaps very rare exception, this is also reality and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. What's driving the ire (mine, anyway) isn't the desire but the method. Are you really suggesting that there's no distinction between being invited along to a Thai dinner with Erik M., who has spent countless hours with those chefs, and me going to a new restaurant in a new city and first heralding my arrival by E-mailing them to tell them that Dominic Armato will be dining with them, and he writes a food blog, and he'd like the chef to make him a special dinner?

Steveo,

How did you get the restaurant to do tasting portions of ala carte menu items when practically every restaurant that I'm aware of will only do a "tasting menu" for the entire table?

P.S.

I find the inclusion of Erik's dinners particularly incongruous, since the entire purpose of his work has been to get these menus translated and out in the open so anybody can order this stuff and they don't have to be a "big shot" or know him or know the code to share in the experience.