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Paris and ?, France

Paris and ?, France
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  • Paris and ?, France

    Post #1 - May 21st, 2006, 3:59 pm
    Post #1 - May 21st, 2006, 3:59 pm Post #1 - May 21st, 2006, 3:59 pm
    The wife and I are taking a belated honeymoon to France this August. Now, I know in August Paris will probably be devoid of locals and mobbed with tourists. We were hoping to do April, but that didn't work.

    We'll be there Friday, August 4th to Sunday, August 13th.

    We're considering leaving Paris for the middle week (say, Sunday to Friday, or Monday to Friday), but we've got a problem: We have no idea where to go.

    Neither of us are big wine drinkers, so, while Bordeaux is by no means out, we think we'd miss about 2/3 of the point of the region. Personally, I'm leaning towards kicking around Burgundy and its neighbors for a few days, but we're really desperate for suggestions. Sell us on your favorite region.

    We're also not the "let's spend every day at a museum or touring a castle" types, so scenery and attractions of that sort are not a big draw for us. Now, markets or main streets with lots of people watching, that's awesome. Our favorite things in Montreal were walking up the Main and the Marche Jean Talon.

    Beth would really like somewhere with nice beaches, or within a reasonable drive of a nice beach, if only for a day. This isn't a deal breaker, but it will certainly make her happier.


    So what information am I requesting you folks spoon-feed me?

    Where do we go?

    Where do we stay in Paris and in [whereever we go]? Somewhere reasonably nice under 150 euros a night, but 100 or under is even better.

    Where do we eat?


    I've been reading a lot of the other relevant threads on France and Paris:

    Eating in France
    Travelling in Southwest France
    Paris Restaurants
    Foodie Recs in Paris
    Paris on a Culinary Student's Budget

    And they're great, but (as you'd expect for this forum) they're more focused on food. Because of that, we have a TON of great suggestions for places to eat, although more are always appreciated.

    Thanks in advance, and special thanks to Seth Z. who has helped me a ton already.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #2 - May 21st, 2006, 4:39 pm
    Post #2 - May 21st, 2006, 4:39 pm Post #2 - May 21st, 2006, 4:39 pm
    I've been around several different parts of France and frankly this is an easy question.

    Go south, jeune homme.

    1) I liked Nice, and toodling around the environs (St. Paul de Vence, etc.) a lot. Friends of mine have liked other playgrounds of the rich (and faded playgrounds of yesterday's rich) like Juan-les-Pins, a lot, too. Mind you, you're going there in prime time, so places like Nice and Cannes will undoubtedly be zoos. But there's always that place down the road that isn't so popular, that seems to get overlooked. It'll take some hunting to figure out where it is, and I doubt you'll entirely escape crowds no matter what, but the basic idea, that the Riviera and its beaches are famous for good reason, is pretty hard to argue with. (By the way, you mentioned markets, and Nice has a very good one.)

    2) Provence. Another place that's famous for a reason. Avignon (with its Palais des Papes, one of the few castles you can visit that lives up to your idea of what a castle should be, and thus is worth the investment of a 2-hour tour) and Aix (a vibrant university town) were both places I liked a lot and would happily have spent more time in. Not that the point of visiting Provence is exactly to be in towns, but they make good bases for visiting the area generally.
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  • Post #3 - May 21st, 2006, 4:44 pm
    Post #3 - May 21st, 2006, 4:44 pm Post #3 - May 21st, 2006, 4:44 pm
    Thanks, Mike. I've been especially interested in Aix, but was, as always, worried that I'd have two-thirds of france breathing down my neck.

    I should probably rent a car no matter where I go, eh? Am I likely to run into problems being under 25? It's certainly a problem in the US with almost all rental companies. Does it make more sense to take the train whereever I go and rent there, or rent in Paris and drive all the way?
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #4 - May 21st, 2006, 5:03 pm
    Post #4 - May 21st, 2006, 5:03 pm Post #4 - May 21st, 2006, 5:03 pm
    I don't know the answer to the under-25 question, but France has excellent train service, including the freaky TGV (which is so fast it makes you kind of ill to look out the window), so there is something to be said for taking the train to the base destination and then renting a car, rather than driving, if you're not doing the toodle-through-the-countryside sort of drive but simply want to get to your base.

    Paris and Aix (and thereabouts) would be a great trip. As far as Paris in August goes, the important thing to remember is that even if Berthillon is closed, many of the places on the Ile-St. Louis sell their ice cream. As long as you have that information, everything else will be okay...
    Watch Sky Full of Bacon, the Chicago food HD podcast!
    New episode: Soil, Corn, Cows and Cheese
    Watch the Reader's James Beard Award-winning Key Ingredient here.
  • Post #5 - May 21st, 2006, 5:59 pm
    Post #5 - May 21st, 2006, 5:59 pm Post #5 - May 21st, 2006, 5:59 pm
    Tough. In fact, very tough. Choosing where to go in France is hard, and many wonderful places are all but unknown to Americans. However, it sounds as if you are willing to do some research. My best advice is to scan the Michelin green guides. I'm not sure which bookstore has the best selection, but you want 1) a guide to Paris, and 2) a guide to the province where your second destination is located. Be aware that though the distances in miles may be short, it can be quite a challenge to make good time on secondary roads in France. You would do better to limit the number of hotel moves if you are not the sort of folks who really need to keep moving. I have stressed this point to friends, who, in retrospect, said they wished they had taken this to heart. I must confess, however, that, try as I might, I have a hard time taking my own advice on this!
    It's best to follow the "routes touristiques" mapped out by the Michelin green guides, as they give realistic plans for a day's journey.

    An excellent resource for hotel and restaurant recommendations is La Belle France, a newsletter available by mail . (Full disclosure: my college roommate is the writer-editor of this publication). While the content skews to high-end destinations, there are also more affordable options covered.

    With your parameters, the Bordeaux area may still interest you. St. Emilion is a lovely little town. I spent an afternoon in the overgrown ruins of an old monastery there eating light-as-air almond macaroons made by nuns and drinking champagne. The town is built on caves that have been used to store wine since Roman times, and there is an unusual underground cathedral that opens onto the main square. Walks in the area have many of the fragrances of Provence, without the crowds. The dusty roads are lined with the wild rosemary bushes. Even if you are not particularly focused on wine, a tour of one of the smaller vineyards can be very interesting.

    To the east of Bordeaux you have Perigueux and the Dordogne area. What's not to like about truffles and foie gras? While very popular with English tourists during August, the Dordogne offers great biking routes along the river, and many "troglodyte" attractions. In fact, my very favorite summer destination in France is the caves near Les Eyzies de Tayac. Their prehistoric art and natural rock formations rival anything Spielberg or Lucas could imagine. Many people do not realized that the Lascaux caves, now closed to the public, are not the only game in town. Indeed, there is an underground lake that you can ride across in one of the larger caves. Not too far away is Rocamadour, a pilgrimage site built on the side of a mountain with a very elaborate stages-of-the-cross climb if your knees are in really top shape, and your soul is need of a penitential boost. Unfortunately, it is adjacent to a (for France) kitsch-filled tourist town (Don't Eat There), but I still think it is underrated.

    North of Bordeaux, near La Rochelle, I'd recommend the wide, sandy beaches of the Ile de Re or the Ile d'Oleron. (La Rochelle is worth a look, too, as it's a cool old port with a tower dungeon that once housed unlucky English foes.) The islands are kind of like French Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket, and it could be tough finding a place to stay in August even now. However, unless there is a current blight on shellfish like the one afflicting Maine last summer, you will find roadside stands with oysters and white wine, rather than the clam rolls of Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard. Another great beach is at the Dune de Pilat near Arcachon. Although the approach to the beach is dotted with cheesy concessions and the parking is from hell, once you climb the dune, the view is unparalleled in my experience. On one side of the dune, the ocean extends to the horizon, while on the other, the pine forests of Landes reach uninterrupted to the other horizon. And, up above those tranquil blue and green seas, at the top of the dune, it is eerily quiet at twighlight.

    Zut alors! you have got me thinking. I need to go to France again sooner rather than later.
    Last edited by Josephine on May 22nd, 2006, 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
    Man : I can't understand how a poet like you can eat that stuff.
    T. S. Eliot: Ah, but you're not a poet.
  • Post #6 - May 21st, 2006, 9:51 pm
    Post #6 - May 21st, 2006, 9:51 pm Post #6 - May 21st, 2006, 9:51 pm
    A couple other reasons for the Bordeaux region:
    1) Duck. This is the primary foie gras production region (grape must is one of the things force fed to the poultry), and overall duck production is excellent.

    2) Beaches. Arcachon is a beautiful area with some huge sand dunes.
    What is patriotism, but the love of good things we ate in our childhood?
    -- Lin Yutang
  • Post #7 - May 21st, 2006, 10:05 pm
    Post #7 - May 21st, 2006, 10:05 pm Post #7 - May 21st, 2006, 10:05 pm
    gleam wrote:Thanks, Mike. I've been especially interested in Aix, but was, as always, worried that I'd have two-thirds of france breathing down my neck.

    I don't know that Aix itself will be overrun in August. I've visited several times in August and did not get the feeling that there was a large number of other French vacationing in Aix at the time. My Aunt and Uncle who live in Aix actually typically spend their August in Corsica (as do a fair number of their Provencal friends, along with a fair number of Parisians). (Now Corsica is a place I would highly recommend, even in August with all that entails, but that is probably a bit far afield for what it apears you are looking for.)
  • Post #8 - May 21st, 2006, 10:26 pm
    Post #8 - May 21st, 2006, 10:26 pm Post #8 - May 21st, 2006, 10:26 pm
    Thanks for all the great input and advice so far.

    What's the skinny on Marseille? I've heard "it's a hole" and "it's only a hole until you get there, and then it's a great city, kind of like Chicago" (I'm not making that last one up).

    Anyone want to teach me to drive stick? Honestly, I'd love to avoid having a car at all on this trip -- I hate driving on vacation -- but I don't know how feasible it is.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #9 - May 22nd, 2006, 8:58 am
    Post #9 - May 22nd, 2006, 8:58 am Post #9 - May 22nd, 2006, 8:58 am
    I'd take a pass on Marseille... and that's coming from someone who used to live there. Though there are some nice-ish areas, it really is, for the most part, a hole - and can be a little rough (read: unsafe) if you don't know what areas to avoid/don't speak the language, etc.

    The main problem you're going to run into in France in August is that a LOT - and not just in small towns, but in the cities as well - is closed for the month. From Paris to Provence, shopkeepers take the month off, so you'll find a lot - sometimes most - of the bakeries/fromageries/chocolatiers/ etc. closed. And a lot of restaurants too.

    You really don't need a rental car in France ~ the train system is great and inexpensive (especially if you're under 25), and having a car, especially if you don't drive stick, is simply more hassle than it's worth.

    If you're going South, Aix and Avignon are really great towns with wonderful food, FABULOUS markets, and a lot of charm. Closer to Paris, it's easy to take day trips to the Champagne region (Reims) and Chartres. Even if you're not a big castle person, the Loire Valley is worth a trip and again, not terribly far from Paris. If you want beaches/ocean closer than Provence, you can easily head up to Brittany, visit Mont St. Michel and St. Malo...
  • Post #10 - May 22nd, 2006, 9:32 am
    Post #10 - May 22nd, 2006, 9:32 am Post #10 - May 22nd, 2006, 9:32 am
    If you decide to go south by train (and that may be a better choice than renting a car--roads can get packed in August and driving in France is far from inexpensive) Avignon is a wonderful base, largely because it's a train center in the South, and there are easy one-days from there by train to Marseilles (better a day-trip than a base), Arles (GREAT market on Saturday), and many other cities. Aix is wonderful but not quite as central by train (unless things have changed in the last couple of years).

    By the way, I'm surprised no one's mentioned Normandy. It's a region I'm unfamiliar with, but it's a prime summer beach-resort destination for Parisians and a lot closer than the Midi.
    "The fork with two prongs is in use in northern Europe. In England, they’re armed with a steel trident, a fork with three prongs. In France we have a fork with four prongs; it’s the height of civilization." Eugene Briffault (1846)
  • Post #11 - May 22nd, 2006, 9:47 am
    Post #11 - May 22nd, 2006, 9:47 am Post #11 - May 22nd, 2006, 9:47 am
    A trip I enjoyed immensely was to Brittany and the lower Loire, but that was with a car (naturally, of the manual transmission sort). Seafood, galettes, cider, Loire wine, hearing some Breton spoken... And the driving itself was a blast. But the logistics of that trip wouldn't have worked very well without the car and I'm not sure I would want to do it in August. I did it in June and it was fabulous.

    Avoiding driving, I would stick to Paris with a couple or more day trips or over-nighters; as Ms. Paris suggests, to places like Reims and Chartres and -- I would add -- Rouen and perhaps the Normandy coast.

    Antonius
    Alle Nerven exzitiert von dem gewürzten Wein -- Anwandlung von Todesahndungen -- Doppeltgänger --
    - aus dem Tagebuch E.T.A. Hoffmanns, 6. Januar 1804.
    ________
    Na sir is na seachain an cath.
  • Post #12 - May 22nd, 2006, 10:54 am
    Post #12 - May 22nd, 2006, 10:54 am Post #12 - May 22nd, 2006, 10:54 am
    Here's some thoughts. You've only got a few days outside Paris, so you don't want to travel a lot. I'd recommend Normandy. I've heard the south of France is packed with tourists in Summer. Normany, when we were there in August, had tourists, but they were French and English on holiday, which was nice. First day, go to Rouen; the core old City and Cathedral are wonderful. Then, north to Honfleur, the touristy and oh so pretty port. Then go west to Bayeaux to see the cathedral and tapestry. You can also see the Normady beaches. There are beach resorts on the channel, but I dont' know much about them.
  • Post #13 - May 22nd, 2006, 3:38 pm
    Post #13 - May 22nd, 2006, 3:38 pm Post #13 - May 22nd, 2006, 3:38 pm
    Another vote for Normandy. I have a French "family" from my old student days in Caen, and I ust love Normandy. The countryside is gorgeous, the history, both ancient and modern is astonishing, and the local cuisine is fantastic. It's only a 2 hour train ride from Paris too. Jonah's recommendations are pretty good. But I would definitely add the Normandy beaches and the American cemetary to your itinerary. I am also partial to Caen, which is William the Conquerer's home town. There are cool medieval ruins and an astonishing WWII musuem called Le Memorial de la Paix. Be sure to pick up some Calvados in Normandy. (Apples are the big regional crop.) Mont St. Michel is on the Brittany-Normandy border and although it is incredibly touristy, it is also kind of cool. But that might be too out of your way.

    I don't have any specific restaurant recommendations in this area, but you hardly need them. Little restaurants in the small towns will have wonderful food. If you want to splurge, order an "assiete de fruits de mer" -- a platter of assorted shellfish. I have fond memories of eating lagoustine and all manner of creepy, crawly things from the sea (periwinkles anyone?).
    Good Americans, when they die, go to Paris.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Post #14 - May 22nd, 2006, 4:51 pm
    Post #14 - May 22nd, 2006, 4:51 pm Post #14 - May 22nd, 2006, 4:51 pm
    Two lovely places to be in August: Brittany and Alsace. There will be no Americans in either place, and most likely no tourists. I can guarantee you they will ALL be south of the Loire, or in Scandanavia! Really.

    Both places I'm going to note will be reachable by train, but not quickly.

    Concarneau in Brittany is a tiny, but working seaport. They do fish and shellfish there. Best I've ever had in my life. The Grand Hotel is on the waterfront, and provides an excellent view of the fishing operation. There are a couple of nice swimming beaches. Folks are friendly (they're Celts, of course), the architecture is interesting, and the weather will be superb. And did I say "no tourists"?

    Dambach la Ville is a walled wine village in Alsace, midway between Strasbourg and Colmar--both of which are reachable from the tiny train station. Looks like a French version of a German medieval village strewn with flower boxes. Which, of course, is exactly what it is. There are 4 hotels in town, each with several rooms, more like someone's home than what we'd call a hotel. Long walks among the vines or the 5km in either direction along the Route des Vignes are delightful and restful. Several decent places to eat in the village, plus other nice places in the surrounding countryside.

    I've stayed in both these places frequently over --ulp, nearly 30!--yrs,
    and they are parts of pretty much the last bits of olde timey regional France.


    Geo

    http://www.concarneau.org/

    http://www.dambach-la-ville.fr/
    Sooo, you like wine and are looking for something good to read? Maybe *this* will do the trick! :)
  • Post #15 - May 22nd, 2006, 6:13 pm
    Post #15 - May 22nd, 2006, 6:13 pm Post #15 - May 22nd, 2006, 6:13 pm
    All,

    Thanks again.

    Brittany and Normandy both sound quite nice. I had initially ruled them out when we were looking at April (weather), but now that we've bought tickets for August, they're a lot more tempting. The canadian cemetery might be a good selling point for the wife :)

    Thanks, Ms. Paris, for the dish on Marseille. Avignon and Aix both look lovely.

    As for Bordeaux: what will the American tourist situation be like in August? The proximity to the basque country is a big selling point.

    I do know that a lot of the stores will be closed in August. I'd really prefer to go in September or May or June, but they were unfortunately not feasible :(.

    I'm not really dead set against having a car. If I have one, it would probably be best for it to be an automatic, which means I will almost certainly have to rent in Paris or pay through the nose in my destination. I certainly won't rule out places where a car is necessary.

    We are very much the stay-in-one-place types, so we're looking at 2-3 nights in paris, 4-5 nights in X, and 2-3 nights in paris again.

    Does anyone have recommendations for hotels, or perhaps simply arrondissements, to stay in in Paris? The Time Out and Rough Guides are on their way, but personal recommendations carry a lot of weight.


    At this point we're torn between spending the entire time in Paris and doing day trips (which is very tempting, if only for convenience and because Paris has so much to explore), Aix/Avignon, and Brittany/Normandy.

    I'm leaning towards the first two choices, but I lean about 45 ways a day, so who knows.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #16 - May 22nd, 2006, 7:36 pm
    Post #16 - May 22nd, 2006, 7:36 pm Post #16 - May 22nd, 2006, 7:36 pm
    Two great (non-global, genuinely neighborhoodly, superbly-located, and not over-the-top expensive) hotels on the Left Bank:

    http://www.france-hotel-guide.com/h75005monge.htm

    http://www.travelintelligence.net/php/h ... hp?id=1385

    It doesn't get any better than these.

    Geo
    Sooo, you like wine and are looking for something good to read? Maybe *this* will do the trick! :)
  • Post #17 - May 22nd, 2006, 10:19 pm
    Post #17 - May 22nd, 2006, 10:19 pm Post #17 - May 22nd, 2006, 10:19 pm
    Although I have spent August in Provence, I'm not sure that the journey is worth it in the time you have alotted. That said, Brittany and Normandy can be iffy weather-wise, even in August. However, an area that I like is Dinan-Dinard. In Dinan, you have a half-timbered town surrounded by ramparts. They give some good walking tours of the town. One of my favorite dinners ever was in the restaurant that is located in the ramparts. Dinard is a good deal more glitzy with beaches and a casino, but there is an enormous sea-water pool that fills at high tide, as well as a restaurant located on a nearby island (visible from the beach and accessible by boat) where you choose your dinner from a "vivier" -- a sort of enclosure of sea-water. The plateaux de fruits de mer are especially fresh, cheap, and plentiful in the roadside family joints. Cancale, famous for its oysters and scallops, is a short drive away.

    In Normandy, the beaches and cemeteries are a moving sight, no question. What struck me immediately was how many Stars of David were visible amid the sea of white crosses I had come to expect from the place. (You should also take a look at the monuments to German dead--quite a contrast). What I loved in Normandy, though, was the charcoal grey houses and beached fishing boats of Honfleur, one of the few towns to survive the extensive Allied bombing that destroyed much of Brittany and Normandy during the war. For cooks, there is a sort of mecca near Mont St. Michel called Villedieu-les-Poeles, a town entirely devoted to the manufacture and sale of copper cookware. (I was very fortunate to visit there when the franc to dollar exchange rate was favorable.)

    As I mentioned above, it is very tough to narrow down your options in France. Still, the suggestion to base yourselves in Paris and take day trips seems very wise. Chartres on a bright day can induce a peak experience, and some of the Chateaux de la Loire are surprisingly uncrowded, even during August. My daughter and I got a bit tired of castles, and decided to see the Chateau d'Amboise from the comfort of the adjacent municipal pool.

    All the best in your discovery of France!
    Man : I can't understand how a poet like you can eat that stuff.
    T. S. Eliot: Ah, but you're not a poet.
  • Post #18 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:04 am
    Post #18 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:04 am Post #18 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:04 am
    First, I would like to thank everyone for their comments. This has been fascinating reading, with a lot of great ideas.

    I can't talk about the other regions, but I am familiar with Paris in the heat of the summer. Tourists? Yes. Some nice restaurants closed? Yes. Still, you will have a great time walking around.

    My main suggestion for the time that you are in Paris is to NOT go on any formal tours. Read up first (great book -- The Seven Ages of Paris) so you know about the history, and then wander. My wife and I focused on a general area each day, but if we saw something we liked, we just changed our plans. On a tour you are stuck with the group. One example: We loved the Rodin museum. With a tour group we probably would have missed it. On our own, we were able to spend 20 minutes looking out Rodin's own window at The Thinker.

    Along those lines, make sure to pick up a museum pass. Money well spent. You breeze through the lines.

    The other note, and this should be obvious anyway, is to not walk Paris in t-shirts. Nothing says "I'm an American. Please treat me rudely" like wearing a t-shirt in the Louvre.

    Have a great trip.
    Last edited by DML on May 23rd, 2006, 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • Post #19 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:17 am
    Post #19 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:17 am Post #19 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:17 am
    I also vote for staying in Paris the whole time, with perhaps 3 (or 4) day trips to other nearby spots via train.

    The practical reason: you won't have to carry your luggage around from city to city. As you buy more and more stuff (jars of mustard, presents for family and friends, perhaps cool stuff for your apt at a flea market), it will be more of a hassle to drag everything around. Being able to hop on a train in the morning with just a small bag, see a nearby place, and come back to your base in Paris with the day's purchases will make the trip much more carefree.

    I'd save the driving tour of a region of France for the next trip.

    Amata (who travelled all over Mexico by bus at age 21 carrying large papier mache masks she bought the first day in Mexico City... :roll: )
  • Post #20 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:20 am
    Post #20 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:20 am Post #20 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:20 am
    One example: We loved the Rodin museum.


    The Rodin museum is wonderful and it demonstrates a larger point that some of the small museums in Paris are worth seeking out. For a first trip to Paris, you have to go to the Louvre and the Musee d'Orsay. But if you are not all museum-ed out, I would also heartily recommend the Picasso museum, which is located in the Marais, a lovely area to explore, and the Rodin museum, whose gardens are a delight on a pretty day. While you are in the Marais, don't forget to check out the Places de Vosges, a remarkable square from the time of Henri IV.
    Good Americans, when they die, go to Paris.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Post #21 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:24 am
    Post #21 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:24 am Post #21 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:24 am
    Now that we're onto Paris comments, here are a few, possibly heretical ones.

    1) Skip the Louvre. Okay, obviously it's great and given infinite time, one should see everything. But in a head to head smackdown for best Paris art museum, I'd pick the Musee d'Orsay, which has the Impressionist stuff most people like better than all those spinach-green landscapes and classical compositions, and is located in the cool 19th century train station (seen in Welles' film of The Trial); and for backup I'd take the Musee Cluny, which is the medieval art one and is located in an old cloister built on a Roman bath. Also, as mentioned, the single-artist museums (notably the Rodin and the Picasso, or even the Gustave Moreau one; all located in the former homes or studios of the artists) are well worth a visit for a smaller scale, more intimate museum experience.

    2) Skip Versailles. Again, not that it isn't worth seeing, but if I were going to spend most of a day out of the city traveling to one big building, Chartres is far more moving and evocative of a past in which a great cathedral would have risen from a flat medieval plain and been an astonishing vision for dozens of miles.

    3) My favorite place to wander-- again, because it's more medieval than the rest of the city: the Ile St. Louis, one of the few parts Baron Haussman didn't bulldoze in the 19th century. Plus Berthillon is there!

    4) Fun, slightly morbid things to consider: the catacombs tour, and the archeological museum located under the plaza in front of Notre Dame.

    5) Favorite thing no one seems to know exist: up on the roof of the Samaritaine department store, there's a deck with tiles on the railing depicting the skyline in front of you and telling you what buildings you're looking at. Except that since the tiles were done in about 1925, it's an instant picture of how Paris has changed since then. You basically have to sneak up there, it's theoretically open to the public but not marked, I forget how we even found it. Good luck.... (UPDATE: according to this that entire building now seems to be closed for renovations until 2011(!). So never mind.)
    Last edited by Mike G on May 23rd, 2006, 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
    Watch Sky Full of Bacon, the Chicago food HD podcast!
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  • Post #22 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:36 am
    Post #22 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:36 am Post #22 - May 23rd, 2006, 8:36 am
    Mike raises a great point about seeing the older parts of the city.

    That is one of the reasons that I recommend reading some history. The best general overview is the book I mentioned, The Seven Ages of Paris.

    When you know the history you get a completely different perspective.

    When most people walk through the plaza in front of Notre Dame, they focus on the great cathedral. When I walked through, I pictured Gen. De Gaulle standing on the plaza shortly after the city had been liberated. Unfortunately, there were still pockets of German resistance. As the crowds stood in that plaza, German snipers opened fire. There is a great photo of everyone ducking from the snipers while De Gaulle stood tall. Like I said -- I had a completely different perspective on that plaza than most people.

    Another perspective from history. Most people think that the Pont Neuf is a nice old bridge. From reading history, I knew that the bridge had been christened by the French king racing his white horse across. It adds a fascinating edge to what otherwise would just be sort of interesting.

    Read up, even if you are not a big history fan. It is well worth it.
  • Post #23 - May 23rd, 2006, 9:18 am
    Post #23 - May 23rd, 2006, 9:18 am Post #23 - May 23rd, 2006, 9:18 am
    More Paris fun places:

    If you're a cook (or like gear) do not miss Dehillerin, a MOST fabuluous kitchenware store.

    http://www.frommers.com/destinations/paris/S28587.html



    A cool (both temperaturely and attitudinally speaking!) way to spend a hot day is wandering through Pere Lachaise cemetary: the topography is that of the western butte area, the landscaping is lush and green, and more famous people than you can imagine are buried there, in some of the most lavish memorials you've ever seen in your life. Given the state of most of the inhabitants, it's pretty quiet there too. A great escape.

    http://www.pere-lachaise.com/perelachaise.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Père_Lachaise

    Geo
    Sooo, you like wine and are looking for something good to read? Maybe *this* will do the trick! :)
  • Post #24 - May 23rd, 2006, 10:06 am
    Post #24 - May 23rd, 2006, 10:06 am Post #24 - May 23rd, 2006, 10:06 am
    After weighing our desire to not have to move luggage around a lot vs our desire to see more of Paris, it seems almost a lock that we'll sleep all 9 nights in Paris. At this point we're very strongly leaning towards renting an apartment for those 9 nights. Costs seem similar to a hotel, and the added space and privacy will be awfully nice. Anyone going to warn me against it?

    (On a side note: Beth is particularly enamored of a 5th-floor-walkup in St. Germain. I'm resisting based on the whole 5-floors-of-walking-after-8-hours-of-walking-around-paris thing. Most of the other places we've seen are in le Marais, and a few in the Latin Quarter.)

    Mike, the catacombs tour sounds 100% up our alley. And to everyone else, believe me when I say we'll avoid the general touristy walking tours. Beth has already said "We should find out where all the Da Vinci Code walking tours are so we can avoid them." We can rely on the guidebooks, in general, to guide us through the well-known attractions, but the offbeat things are both straight up our alley and harder to find alone.

    As ekpaster said, it's a first trip. We have to go to the Louvre. We may not do more than one day there, though.

    As for day trips, I don't think we'll want to spend more than about 2-2.5 hours on a train each way. Of course, 2.5 hours is enough to get us to Avignon on the TGV, so nothing is ruled out.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #25 - May 23rd, 2006, 10:33 am
    Post #25 - May 23rd, 2006, 10:33 am Post #25 - May 23rd, 2006, 10:33 am
    gleam wrote:After weighing our desire to not have to move luggage around a lot vs our desire to see more of Paris, it seems almost a lock that we'll sleep all 9 nights in Paris. At this point we're very strongly leaning towards renting an apartment for those 9 nights. Costs seem similar to a hotel, and the added space and privacy will be awfully nice. Anyone going to warn me against it?


    Having an apartment should give you a kitchen and with a kitchen, you can take pleasure in food shopping and having simple and interesting things at minimal cost for breakfast, lunch, snacks.

    The last couple of times I was in Paris for an extended stay, I lodged in a friend's apartment and had a great time shopping and cooking.

    Antonius
    Alle Nerven exzitiert von dem gewürzten Wein -- Anwandlung von Todesahndungen -- Doppeltgänger --
    - aus dem Tagebuch E.T.A. Hoffmanns, 6. Januar 1804.
    ________
    Na sir is na seachain an cath.
  • Post #26 - May 23rd, 2006, 11:22 am
    Post #26 - May 23rd, 2006, 11:22 am Post #26 - May 23rd, 2006, 11:22 am
    Oh Antonius you are so right! My last two times in Paris, we've stayed in a flat with a decent little kitchen, a neighborhood supermarket 100m up the street, and 50m beyond that, one of the city's dozen or so *covered markets* !! The quality of the ingredients available just makes cooking such a satisfying and exciting thing to do. There's a fish lady in the covered market that TODG swears I love more than her. Not true of course. Really. :^)

    Geo
    Sooo, you like wine and are looking for something good to read? Maybe *this* will do the trick! :)
  • Post #27 - May 23rd, 2006, 12:58 pm
    Post #27 - May 23rd, 2006, 12:58 pm Post #27 - May 23rd, 2006, 12:58 pm
    I'm actually planning my own first trip to Paris this fall (and, apologies to those I've discussed this with, I'm probably not going to roam outside the city myself on the first trip), and I've been considering an apartment for exactly the reason Antonius cites; I'd like to cook two or three nights. If there are any ideal situations (the one you mention, Geo, sounds perfect, and it sounds like you've done a fair amount of research as well, Ed?), or if there are any arrondisements where that would be a chore (not particularly convenient to the markets, in particular), I'll eagerly soak up any thoughts and recommendations.
  • Post #28 - May 23rd, 2006, 1:23 pm
    Post #28 - May 23rd, 2006, 1:23 pm Post #28 - May 23rd, 2006, 1:23 pm
    In Normandy, you can see the Bayeux tapestry and cathedral. Really cool! And of course, you must have apples, and butter, and duck...

    There is an amazing contrast in the different cemetaries - allied, British, German, American....

    The American cemetary is very... American. What you get there is vastness, the sheer numbers - nearly anonymous, huge numbers of young men who died to liberate France. You can stand in one place and see every grave, tall marker gleaming white.

    The British and Allied cemetaries show you the personal loss. Because their loved ones can more easily get there, you find notes, flowers, tokens. And the markers have quotes and individualized sayings "our boy, forever gone in a foreign land". And you can't stand in one spot and take it all in, you have to wander, and look, because the markers are lower to the ground, and more dirt-colored.
    Leek

    SAVING ONE DOG may not change the world,
    but it CHANGES THE WORLD for that one dog.
    American Brittany Rescue always needs foster homes. Please think about helping that one dog. http://www.americanbrittanyrescue.org
  • Post #29 - May 23rd, 2006, 3:59 pm
    Post #29 - May 23rd, 2006, 3:59 pm Post #29 - May 23rd, 2006, 3:59 pm
    Let me add to ekpaster's recommendation for small museums in Paris. If your tastes run to Asian art, the Musée Guimetis simply wonderful. Its collection of Greco-Buddhist art from the Silk Road is particularly interesting and will generously reward an afternoon's visit.
  • Post #30 - May 24th, 2006, 7:37 am
    Post #30 - May 24th, 2006, 7:37 am Post #30 - May 24th, 2006, 7:37 am
    Proust's room, Worth's shop, guillotines! Musee Carnavalet (Museum of the City of Paris) in the Marais!

    Also, at the Crypte Archeologique du Parvis, a special exhibit on "Le boire et le manger a Lutece" through January:
    (http://www.v1.paris.fr/musees/musee_car ... ualite.htm)

    The small museums of Paris are great, but, unless things have changed in the decade since I was there, you should be aware that in many, the signage is exclusively in French.
    "The fork with two prongs is in use in northern Europe. In England, they’re armed with a steel trident, a fork with three prongs. In France we have a fork with four prongs; it’s the height of civilization." Eugene Briffault (1846)

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